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[Jesse Dornfeld]

As per the attachment, the question was asked,

"Is Mary the Mother of God?

A: Yes.
B: No."

My answer:

"Wonderful woman. To be admired, not worshipped."

Then someone else chimes in,

"You possibly are a Nestorian heretic."

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[chevyontheriver]

As per the attachment, the question was asked,

"Is Mary the Mother of God?

A: Yes.
B: No."

My answer:

"Wonderful woman. To be admired, not worshipped."

Then someone else chimes in,

"You possibly are a Nestorian heretic."

What are your thoughts on this?

Your answer, good as it is, doesn't answer a yes or no question with a 'yes' or 'no'. As such it says nothing about you being a Nestorian or not. If you would absolutely refuse to reply with a 'yes' then maybe, possibly you are. Even though your answer was true as far as it went.

It's a visceral thing that we just went 1200 posts over. Not seeking to repeat that. To me it seems so simple.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Your answer, good as it is, doesn't answer a yes or no question with a 'yes' or 'no'. As such it says nothing about you being a Nestorian or not. If you would absolutely refuse to reply with a 'yes' then maybe, possibly you are. Even though your answer was true as far as it went.

It's a visceral thing that we just went 1200 posts over. Not seeking to repeat that. To me it seems so simple.

That is quite reasonable of you, I must say. So many Catholics I come across would flame me for my answer, but it seems you saw through it.

And no, I do not deny Mary is the Mother of God, however, I think better language could be used for this. I personally like, "Mary, mother of our Lord," but maybe that's just me.

 

[chevyontheriver]

That is quite reasonable of you, I must say. So many Catholics I come across would flame me for my answer, but it seems you saw through it.

I'm hoping for less flaming even while I see it as absolutely critical for the sake of orthodox Christology that Mary was the mother of and gave birth to a person who was God (and a man too of course). Anything less is a Christological pit of quicksand. Orthodox Christology was too hard won to just ignore it in favor of one's own inventions. So the answer has to be 'A'. Appending "Wonderful woman. To be admired, not worshiped." would be fine.

And no, I do not deny Mary is the Mother of God, however, I think better language could be used for this.

I like 'theotokos', but then that means pretty much exactly the same thing anyhow. I don't care if somebody actually SAYS Mary is the mother of God as much as I would see a ton of big red flags in the denial of it. Usually Nestorian red flags, but other even more bizarro ones too. Like 'God implanting the holy embryo' in Mary. No. There is no true incarnation in that one. Just a surrogate womb for hire.

I personally like, "Mary, mother of our Lord," but maybe that's just me.

Yes. But this works only in so far as 'Lord' and 'God' are exact synonyms. I think in some theological constructs they are not exact synonyms, and thus it would/could be a problem.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Yes. But this works only in so far as 'Lord' and 'God' are exact synonyms. I think in some theological constructs they are not exact synonyms, and thus it would/could be a problem.

Right. No one is denying Mary is not the birther of a person of the Holy Trinity. But what could be problematic is that the generic use of "God" has been historically meant to mean God the Father, and elsewise God could refer to God as the One True God, the Trinity.

 

[HTacianas]

Right. No one is denying Mary is not the birther of a person of the Holy Trinity. But what could be problematic is that the generic use of "God" has been historically meant to mean God the Father, and elsewise God could refer to God as the One True God, the Trinity.

The Word, the divine creative power of God, is also termed as God. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". That is entirely "biblical" as they say. To call Mary the mother of God is an appropriate title.

And by the way. No one worships Mary.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

No one worships Mary.

Not true. I have literally seen people admit it.

 

[trophy33]

"Do Catholics worship Mary? Offically, yes and no. But, in practice, yes"

 

[HTacianas]

"Do Catholics worship Mary? Offically, yes and no. But, in practice, yes"

I think you need a bit of a warning regarding CARM.org. Please don't take anything they have to say seriously.

 

[trophy33]

I think you need a bit of a warning regarding CARM.org. Please don't take anything they have to say seriously.

This applies to any source, catholic ones included.

 

[Valletta]

This applies to any source, catholic ones included.

False. Carm is quite an outrageous anti-Catholic site. As to "worship," one of the problems is that there are multiple meanings of the word and the meaning changes over time. Some may worship an athlete, or call a judge "Your worship" or "Your honor." So one can have great admiration and respect for another in that sense. But the worship for God is for God alone, Catholics are not to give that kind of worship to athletes or movie stars or Mary or the rest of the saints.

 

[trophy33]

the worship for God is for God alone

This seems to be what carm is saying that Catholics are saying. They do what constitutes a worship, but redefine it to "a different kind".

 

[Lost4words]

Not true. I have literally seen people admit it.

Then they dont know what they are talking about...

I have been a Catholic for almost 60 years now and i have never ever come across a single Catholic who worships Mary. Not one!

 

[Valletta]

This seems to be what carm is saying that Catholics are saying. They do what constitutes a worship, but redefine it to "a different kind".

As I said, the English word has multiple meanings and meanings change over time. So if you "worship" athletes or movie stars or a woman or man from afar just make sure you know the difference between the worship for God and such admiration. All Christians worship men or women or they don't depending upon your definition. I don't use "worship" in that first sense, so no I and other Catholics do not worship Mary.

 

[trophy33]

As I said, the English word has multiple meanings and meanings change over time. So if you worship athletes or movie stars or a woman or man from afar just make sure you know the difference between the worship for God and admiration. All Christians worship men or women or they don't depending upon your definition.

Worship is not constituted by English pop culture usage, but by things listed on the carm webpage - altars, praying, bowing down, statues/idols crafting etc.

I do not think there is any permissible worship of any man. I do not worship any athletes or movie stars.

 

[Valletta]

Worship is not constituted by English pop culture usage, but by things listed on the carm webpage - altars, praying, bowing down, statues/idols crafting etc.

I do not think there is any permissible worship of any man. I do not worship any athletes or movie stars.

Good, it's the same for Catholics, we do not worship athletes or movie stars or Mary. There is so much misunderstanding. The Catechism is a great place to start for what Catholics really believe, and of course observing a mass--all are welcome to observe.

 

[trophy33]

Good, it's the same for Catholics, we do not worship athletes or movie stars or Mary. There is so much misunderstanding. The Catechism is a great place to start for what Catholics really believe, and of course observing a mass--all are welcome to observe.

I have seen catholics praying to statues of Mary, bowing down before them, saying things about her that can be said about God only. Its worship.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Then they dont know what they are talking about...

I have been a Catholic for almost 60 years now and i have never ever come across a single Catholic who worships Mary. Not one!

I would sure hope so! The person I am talking about is Eastern Orthodox. He justifies this by saying he only "serves" God, but as @Valletta points, out, there are different ways the way worship is talked about. He justifies it by texts in the OT that show that a person worshiped a king.

 

[Valletta]

I have seen catholics praying to statues of Mary, bowing down before them, saying things about her that can be said about God only. Its worship.

Your accusation is false.--the people were not praying to statues. Practicing Catholics pray a lot, like Jesus did. We have kneelers at many different places, and visuals to constantly remind us of God. You might see kneelers by crucifixes and Nativity scenes and statues of saints and tombs and paintings of Jesus, all an opportunity to pray. We don't worship the painting of Jesus, the canvas and colors, we take the opportunity to pray to Jesus. One of the things many Christians unfortunately dropped at the reformation, along with seven books of the Bible, was praying to those in Heaven to pray for us and praying for those who have departed this earth. Another example, if you go to St. Peter's at the Vatican, at one level above where St. Peter was buried, there are many kneelers of the tombs of popes. We can pray for a particular pope, that hardly means we are bowing down to worship his bones or photograph. Catholic realize that God hears all of our prayers. I think more time praying and less time criticizing how others pray, less time accusing others, would be beneficial to everyone.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Right. No one is denying Mary is not the birther of a person of the Holy Trinity.

OK. But not JUST birther, as in a surrogate. A real mother who shares half of her DNA with her son.

But what could be problematic is that the generic use of "God" has been historically meant to mean God the Father, and elsewise God could refer to God as the One True God, the Trinity.

OK. But Jesus IS God too. And THAT is the whole point of the thing. The Nicene Creed and Athanasian Creed go through all of that. The Trinitarian complication only means we probably need to be clearer in what we mean by the Trinity as well as being clearer about Christology. Nobody but nobody ever said Mary birthed the Trinity in some primordial time. That seems to be the visceral fear of those who can't bring themselves to say that God was in the womb of Mary.