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What I Would Like to See

cesty

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I apologize if my explanations didn't work for you. I believe my arguments are sound, but that doesn't mean they'll work for you, and that is what it is. Suffice it to say, how do you explain the 2300 day prophecy, along with Christ walking among the candlesticks in Revelation, if Christ immediately went into the MHP to being His final phase of ministry, at His ascension?

I agree with the thought that the 2300 day prophecy of Daniel should be seen as 2300 years. What I don't agree with at this time (I am open to correction) is that Jesus had to move from the Most Holy Place to the Holy Place in order to minister for us. I already gave you my reasons why I don't agree with this.

As for your interpretation of Jesus appearing in the midst of seven candlesticks in Revelation 1:12-13, I do not see this vision in the same way you do (as proof that Jesus moved from the Most Holy Place into the Holy Place and remained there until 1844). You are welcome to provide biblical proof for your belief about Rev. 1:12-13. If you can't do that, then don't expect me to accept it as an absolute.
 
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ricker

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Many Christians do believe that the book of Revelation is not to be understood. Given the fact that it's the final book of the bible, (kind of like the icing on the cake ;)), don't you think it's kind of odd that anyone would teach someone that a book of the bible is not to be understood, especially when the bible says that all scripture is profitable...?

There is a general movement to keep people in the dark in regards to end-time prophecy. I think that is a move of the adversary. If people don't know what to expect, than they won't be ready for it. Also, the book of Revelation straightway tells that those commandment keeping = life. That flies in the face of the "abrogation of the ten commandments" doctrine that is pushed from many a pulpit.

Oh, I think it is profitable enough to read. I've read it a few times. Revelation doesn't say exactly which commandments/teachings it is speaking of, but I'm guessing you know for sure.

I was helping our Pastor teach a confirmation class a while back and he explained the book of Revelation to the kids just as I have to you.
 
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ricker

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Not everything in Revelation is cryptic. Yes a vast majority of it is ^_^ but not all of it. Besides, the book of Daniel aids in understanding the content. We need not guess when the answers have been laid out for us. We should not ignore either, lest it be to our downfall.

Honestly, think of it like this, if you don't know what the book says, how can you be sure whether or not someone is lying to you or telling you the truth in regards to issue therein?


The allusions to Daniel would be understandable. If some of the Christians had a Jewish backgound they would know the book, and a code could be made using that imagery that the Romans, without that background, wouldn't understand.

If we believe in the writings of Mrs. White as an inspired interpreter of Scriptures, the answers have indeed been layed out to us.

Think about this. Maybe there are no questions, the book is just a code written to show God triumph over evil, and both the questions you ask and answers you give are irrelevant. Maybe what the mark could be, and what the 3 headed beast could be, etc. are things that God doesn't expect us to worry about.
 
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Stryder06

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I agree with the thought that the 2300 day prophecy of Daniel should be seen as 2300 years. What I don't agree with at this time (I am open to correction) is that Jesus had to move from the Most Holy Place to the Holy Place in order to minister for us. I already gave you my reasons why I don't agree with this.

As for your interpretation of Jesus appearing in the midst of seven candlesticks in Revelation 1:12-13, I do not see this vision in the same way you do (as proof that Jesus moved from the Most Holy Place into the Holy Place and remained there until 1844). You are welcome to provide biblical proof for your belief about Rev. 1:12-13. If you can't do that, then don't expect me to accept it as an absolute.

Cesty, I can't provide you with anything other than what I gave you. From your standpoint, you believe Christ went straightway into the Most Holy Place. I believe that He went straightway into the Holy Place to being His ministry there, than, at the appointed time (the end of the 2300 days) the cleansing of the sanctuary began. If Christ was in the MHP, than the cleansing of the sanctuary would have began before the appointed time.

Again, I'm sorry I can't offer anything more than what I've already given. But as I said, if you're looking for God's leading in this, He'll lead you.
 
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Stryder06

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Oh, I think it is profitable enough to read. I've read it a few times. Revelation doesn't say exactly which commandments/teachings it is speaking of, but I'm guessing you know for sure.

You can know for sure, but that's up to you to decide.

I was helping our Pastor teach a confirmation class a while back and he explained the book of Revelation to the kids just as I have to you.

I'm sure he did. And that is a problem for me. Children should be taught that the book, while hard to understand, is not impossible to understand, nor should it be ignored or put off as a book of lovely illustrations.
 
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Stryder06

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Think about this. Maybe there are no questions, the book is just a code written to show God triumph over evil, and both the questions you ask and answers you give are irrelevant. Maybe what the mark could be, and what the 3 headed beast could be, etc. are things that God doesn't expect us to worry about.

This is one way to look at it, OR (;)) it could be the reverse. It could be that the time we're soon to enter upon will be so fearful that Christ worried if He would find any faith on the earth upon His return. Thus, to prepare His people for this trying time, He gave us a book that laid out the plains of the adversary cryptically, in part, and than through the Spirit of Prophecy, gave us even more detail when the time was right, so that there would be no mistaking the enemies deception when it comes. Maybe knowing what the Mark of the Beast is, etc, is necessary to avoid deception, and God does indeed expect us to not so much be worried, but be prepared/educated.
 
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Stryder06

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The point I am trying to make is that it is time to forget EG White and focus on JESUS. Comprehehend me. Your adoration of this woman borders on idolatry, remember God says he will NEVER share his glory with another.

My last comment have a great evening.

The point I'm trying to make is that God doesn't give us Prophet's so that we can forget about them. My "adoration" for this woman is no higher than my adoration for any of the prophets before her, and just like them, her writings point ones mind to Christ.
 
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Stryder06

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I beg to differ with you. Not all of her messages were from Yashua, some were her opinions and views of the day. She clearly stated to take the Bible over her words. If she felt that every message she wrote was from the Messiah she would have said so and she did not!

I can say that what she saw or was shone was from Yashua and can be found in the Bible. We must provide correct information.

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

The messages to the church, were inspired by Christ, as attested to by Sr White. Those messages are the ones I am referring to.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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All of the messages she saw is in the Bible and you really do need her for that as said herself take the Bible.

So the visions she had concerning last day events and her correct prediction of the civil war and the SF fire of 1906 along with many others were just her imaginings? What about her counsel on the coming Sunday law? Is that found in the Bible? Just because she did not call herself a prophet(ess) does not mean that she did not have that gift. Re-read the quote you gave and see that see said that those that call her a prophet(ess), she had no controversy with, meaning that while she would not state it, it was not error.

I would also caution you and Contented against bearing false witness against myself and others, in this forum, who appreciate SOP as a help for understanding scripture but nothing more.
 
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stinsonmarri

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So the visions she had concerning last day events and her correct prediction of the civil war and the SF fire of 1906 along with many others were just her imaginings? What about her counsel on the coming Sunday law? Is that found in the Bible? Just because she did not call herself a prophet(ess) does not mean that she did not have that gift. Re-read the quote you gave and see that see said that those that call her a prophet(ess), she had no controversy with, meaning that while she would not state it, it was not error.

I would also caution you and Contented against bearing false witness against myself and others, in this forum, who appreciate SOP as a help for understanding scripture but nothing more.

ECR:

You do not read all that I have said. I clearly said that the Testimony to the Church (which by the way is show also in the Bible from Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Josuha, Samuel, Nathan, Issiah, Ezekiel all the minor prophets, all the apostles. They all provided messages to the church or people of Elohim of their time.), which were also from YAHWEH! When she dealt with Biblical evidence, you can find it in the Bible. I did not bear false witness against you at all. However, you have told an untruth, EGW is not a prophetess, that she clearly stated. She is also not the Spirit of Prophesy the Bible says clearly that Yashua is:

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Yashua: worship Elohim: for the testimony of Yashua is the spirit of prophecy. Rev 19:10

THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY WAS DESIGNED FOR ALL DISPENSATIONS.
. . . YASHUA THE MESSIAH." REV. 12:17.
"THE TESTIMONY OF YASHUA," SAID THE ANGEL TO JOHN, "IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY." REV. 19:10. IT IS THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF ELOHIM , AND THE RECOGNITION OF THE REVIVAL OF THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY BY THE LAST DAY MESSAGE OF THE CHURCH, OR THE CHRISTIANS OF THE LAST GENERATION, THAT STIRS THE IRE OF THE DRAGON.
. . . WHEN MAN IN EDEN STOOD IN ALL THE PERFECTION OF HIS MANHOOD, BEFORE THE BLIGHT OF SIN HAD TOUCHED ANYTHING THAT ELOHIM HAD MADE FOR HIM, AND WITH OPEN FACE BEHELD THE GLORY OF THE LORD, HE COULD HAVE NO NEED OF THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY. BUT WHEN EDEN WAS LOST IN CONSEQUENCE OF TRANSGRESSION, AND MAN WAS DOOMED TO GROPE HIS WAY FROM THE GATES OF PARADISE, ENSHROUDED IN THE MORAL GLOOM THAT RESULTED FROM THE CURSE AND THE REIGN OF SATAN, HE NEEDED THE LIGHT OF THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY. SP vi

James White wrote the introduction to the volume of books called the Spirit of Prophecy, which is the testimony of Yashua. We receive the gift of the Spirit through the Holy Spirit but it belongs to Yashua and delievered by His chosen ones. You do not have to caution me at all ECR because I will call sin by its right name. This is a sin because you are breaking the Commandments of YAHWEH! It clearly says we should not have other idols befor Him and you and the SDA Church has. You try to make things holy that YAHWEH has not ordain you or anyone to make holy. EGW had visions that were important to spiritual growth in the Bible. She is not a prophetess because all the Biblical things reveal to her were already there in the Scriptures. The dream about SF and other event are in the Bible as well. Read Matt 24 the whole chapter and see. The Bible clearly states not to add anything to the Book of Revelation which is the Tesimony of Yashua who is the Spirit of Prophecy or Prophecy things throught the Holy Spirit. The Father reveal it to His Son, whom the Son gave it to Gabriel that gave it to John. It is a lie about the Sunday Law if it is not presented in the Bible and especially not Revelation. The Father clearly stated this:

The Revelation of Yashua the Messiah, which Elohim gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John: Who bare record of the word of Elohim, and of the testimony of Yashua the Messiah, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1:1-3

And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship Elohim. And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. I Yashua have sent Mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, andthe bright and Morning Star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, Elohim shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, Elohim shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Savior Yashua. Rev 22:8, 9, 16-20

No hear this clear if you continue in this manner after it is plain in the Word of Elohim and not mine that all who add or take from this prophecy will be removed out of the Book of Life and the holy city, the plagues that are written in Revelation will fall on them. If you are wrong you are wrong. You can not, nor will not show anywhere in EGW writings or the Bible that she was called a prophetess or that Revelation or any other Bible writers speak on a Sunday law. I have provided from the Bible to you and others clearly from all my comments on this forum what the Bible says:

The beast given to flame,
The Papacy is not the beast, but the harlot who rides him,
The beast is the son of perdition and sits in the Temple,
The beast and the harlot will fight the battle of Armaggedon,
The beast was not Greco-Roman and was different for the other beasts,
The Seven Trumpet has nothing to do with the Ottoman Empire it during the Time of Trouble,
Greco-Rome came out of the goat and the beast dealt with all false religions which included Greco-Rome that became Papal Rome,
Satan is the idol or image and he is the one speaking and again deceiving the world like he did both the serpent and Eve.

These are just a few things I have stated and gave Bible evidence, where is yours. What you'll do as you always have, nothing but say we believe different but no evidence at all from the Bible to back up what you believe. This is what I believe and this is where I stand and if I be persecuted, then that's what others have done and so will I. But, I will not recant nor will I allow you to say things about me and Contented which are not true.

Have a bless day,
stinsonmarri
 
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ricker

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This is one way to look at it, OR (;)) it could be the reverse. It could be that the time we're soon to enter upon will be so fearful that Christ worried if He would find any faith on the earth upon His return. Thus, to prepare His people for this trying time, He gave us a book that laid out the plains of the adversary cryptically, in part, and than through the Spirit of Prophecy, gave us even more detail when the time was right, so that there would be no mistaking the enemies deception when it comes. Maybe knowing what the Mark of the Beast is, etc, is necessary to avoid deception, and God does indeed expect us to not so much be worried, but be prepared/educated.

Your thinking is not out of the realm of possibility.
 
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ricker

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I'm sure he did. And that is a problem for me. Children should be taught that the book, while hard to understand, is not impossible to understand, nor should it be ignored or put off as a book of lovely illustrations.

You might be right. Sometimes we need to decide things for ourselves.
 
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tall73

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DL's explanation to me is assuredly a first. If his statement is correct (not saying that it isn't), than Christ upon His ascension was essentially given the right to being ministry as our High Priest..

I am kind of tired of internet discussion lately, but thought I would discuss this a bit.

DL's argument is not new among Adventist apologists. Most modern Adventist scholars hold to the inauguration view. This has been true since the time of Andross when he responded to Ballenger.

This led to a shift from focus on specific compartments to "ministries" within compartments as most were led to acknowledge that Jesus did indeed inaugurate, and the inauguration included all the sanctuary.

The following Ellen White quote is pivotal in the discussion:

Christ’s glory did not appear when He was upon this earth. He was then a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. Men hid their faces from Him. But He was following the path God had marked out for Him. Still bearing humanity, He ascended to heaven, triumphant and victorious. He has taken the blood of the atonement into the holiest of all, sprinkled it upon the mercy-seat and His own garments, and blessed the people. Soon He will appear the second time to declare that there is no more sacrifice for sin. {ST April 19, 1905, par. 4}

The reference to the sprinking on His garments is to the anointing of the priest which went along with the sanctuary inauguration.

For more discussion on the topic from Richard Davidson of Andrews University (responding to Adventists Gane and Young) you can check out:

Christ’s Entry ‘Within the Veil ’ in Hebrews 6:19-20: The Old Testament Background.” Andrews University Seminary Studies 39, no. 2 (Autumn 2001): 175-190


Inauguration or Day of Atonement? A Response to Norman Young’s ‘Old Testament Background to Hebrews 6:19-20 Revisited.’” Andrews University Seminary Studies 40, no. 1 (2002): 69-88



In light of Jesus' entry into the MHP to inaugurate the bigger question appears to be not where did Jesus go but what ministry did Jesus initiate, and what did it involve?


For those who have not already done so, you might want to read the chapter of Ford's book that deals with the history of different views on the sanctuary doctrine. Whether you agree with all that Ford writes or not (I don't with all of it) the historical discussion is interesting.

http://www.goodnewsforadventists.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/1844/Dan814DAIJ-Ch 01.pdf
 
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