What I don't understand about the arguement for Abortion.

[TomZzyzx]

Happy to carry on.

While I, in fact, agree that abortion (in most cases) is wrong, I don't believe it kills a human being. A human organism, certainly, but I believe a human being is more than what is found in the uterus during gestation. Things like self awareness, experience and sentience are what make a human BEING, and they just aren't present in any form before week 20 gestation (and possibly much latter, depending on your definition)

Embryonic science has already established that the unborn is a Human Being/life at conception. You still need to answer my question, "what kind of being is it if not a Human Being?" What you are arguing for is Human personhood not Human Being.

Another question you did not answer is where does the bible allow or support abortion? Since you don't answer these questions I take it you just don't know the answers.

 

[mathetes123]

Cute. There are things the Bible is fairly unambiguous about, and then there is quite a bit of belief based on Biblical exegesis and convoluted "reasoning".

Also, you'll note, there is a difference between seeing what the Bible clearly says, and claiming to know the "mind of God". Bible=/= the mind of God, despite the weird independent RBP insistance to the contrary.

You still have not quoted the verses supporting abortion?

The following verses are certainly not ambiguous with respect to the value God places on the unborn..

Psalms 139:13-16
For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.

 

[FrancesJames09]

This is the only passage that I think I can find that might speak directly to what we call an abortion. The set up is that if a man suspects his wife has been unfaithful to him and has become pregnant with another man's child, he can have her drink a potion made from large amounts of rue--this moldy dust underneath tabernacle--which is an abortifacient.

Numbers 5:17-28

17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse —“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it. ”
23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.


This is clearly a potion made by a priest to induce an abortion in a woman. How disgusting, but there you have it. I hate that I had to look this up.

 

[TomZzyzx]

This is the only passage that I think I can find that might speak directly to what we call an abortion. The set up is that if a man suspects his wife has been unfaithful to him and has become pregnant with another man's child, he can have her drink a potion made from large amounts of rue--this moldy dust underneath tabernacle--which is an abortifacient.

Numbers 5:17-28

17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband"-- 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse --"may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries."
"'Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it. "
23 "'The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

This is clearly a potion made by a priest to induce an abortion in a woman. How disgusting, but there you have it. I hate that I had to look this up.

And what are we to understand from these verses? That if a woman was unfaithful to her husband then God through a priest will remove the child from the mother.

Now how many abortions today follow this exact biblical teaching? Maybe a few or none, all other abortions are wrong and immoral.

 

[FrancesJames09]

And what are we to understand from these verses? That if a woman was unfaithful to her husband then God through a priest will remove the child from the mother.

Now how many abortions today follow this exact biblical teaching? Maybe a few or none, all other abortions are wrong and immoral.

You asked for a precedent for an abortion and I gave it to you--you never said what kind.

A priest makes a potion that that will cause an abortion if a husband suspects that a woman has been unfaithful.

This is also not a pro-choice stance as the woman in this situation is having an abortion forced on her--she has no choice. It's either this or death by lapidation.

So it seems that in at least one case, a woman is allowed (read forced) to take a medicine that will induce an abortion if her husband tells her to under suspicion of infidelity.

 

[TomZzyzx]

You asked for a precedent for an abortion and I gave it to you--you never said what kind.

A priest makes a potion that that will cause an abortion if a husband suspects that a woman has been unfaithful.

This is also not a pro-choice stance as the woman in this situation is having an abortion forced on her--she has no choice. It's either this or death by lapidation.

So it seems that in at least one case, a woman is allowed (read forced) to take a medicine that will induce an abortion if her husband tells her to under suspicion of infidelity.

Yes, but I'm sure everyone knew we are asking for a verse that will justify all abortions performed today. Not a justification for a procedure that probably hasn't been performed for centuries. This passage does not help any pro-choice advocates.

 

[FrancesJames09]

Yes, I suppose you don't have have a lot of pro-choice help; what I am attacking is the notion that the pro-life argument has built up--namely that the Bible views all life as sacred--clearly not. With this one instance of an abortion, no matter its context, you have a tugging at the thread at the notion that life while in the womb needs to be protected--apparently if the child is fatherless it doesn't deserve that protection.

I'll agree that life is sacred and I'll agree that life needs to be protected but those aren't necessarily Biblical sentiments since the opposite of those sentiments can also be read in the Bible. Here the Bible runs against those sentiments by creating an exception in this instance. There are also several other instances while perhaps not referring to abortion particularly certainly showed a wanton disregard for life while it was in the womb provided those wombs belonged to an enemy people with some rather disturbing and specific references to pregnant women being ripped open and those children already born dashed to pieces.

Did God not form their inner most parts and knit them in their wombs? I'm certain He did, but that doesn't seem to matter, unfortunately.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

Embryonic science has already established that the unborn is a Human Being/life at conception. You still need to answer my question, "what kind of being is it if not a Human Being?" What you are arguing for is Human personhood not Human Being.

You are misusing human being. I defy you to find a single article to do with embryology that refers to an embryo as a human "being". There is absolutely no argument about a foetus or embryo being either human, or alive. They clearly are. But as to when it becomes a human BEING, thats a whole other argument.

Another question you did not answer is where does the bible allow or support abortion? Since you don't answer these questions I take it you just don't know the answers.

Sorry, must have missed that question. Allow me to answer it now:

Exodus 21:22-24
Hosea 9:11-16
Numbers 5:11-21
Numbers 31:17
Hosea 13:16
2 Kings 15:16

Would you like the pro-infanticide verses now?

 

[Blackwater Babe]

And what are we to understand from these verses? That if a woman was unfaithful to her husband then God through a priest will remove the child from the mother.

Now how many abortions today follow this exact biblical teaching? Maybe a few or none, all other abortions are wrong and immoral.

I'll take shifting the goal posts for $500 please Alex.

 

[mathetes123]

This is the only passage that I think I can find that might speak directly to what we call an abortion. The set up is that if a man suspects his wife has been unfaithful to him and has become pregnant with another man's child, he can have her drink a potion made from large amounts of rue--this moldy dust underneath tabernacle--which is an abortifacient.

Numbers 5:17-28

17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband"-- 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse --"may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries."
"'Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it. "
23 "'The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

This is clearly a potion made by a priest to induce an abortion in a woman. How disgusting, but there you have it. I hate that I had to look this up.

What translation is this? Both the kjv and esv versions say if she has been unfaithful, she will become barren, which is considered a curse. These translations don't say she will miscarry.

 

[mathetes123]

You are misusing human being. I defy you to find a single article to do with embryology that refers to an embryo as a human "being". There is absolutely no argument about a foetus or embryo being either human, or alive. They clearly are. But as to when it becomes a human BEING, thats a whole other argument.

Sorry, must have missed that question. Allow me to answer it now:

Exodus 21:22-24
Hosea 9:11-16
Numbers 5:11-21
Numbers 31:17
Hosea 13:16
2 Kings 15:16

Would you like the pro-infanticide verses now?

The exodus verse calls for punishment for a manwho causes a woman to miscarry

 

[TomZzyzx]

You are misusing human being. I defy you to find a single article to do with embryology that refers to an embryo as a human "being". There is absolutely no argument about a foetus or embryo being either human, or alive. They clearly are. But as to when it becomes a human BEING, thats a whole other argument.

Sorry, must have missed that question. Allow me to answer it now:

Exodus 21:22-24
Hosea 9:11-16
Numbers 5:11-21
Numbers 31:17
Hosea 13:16
2 Kings 15:16

Would you like the pro-infanticide verses now?

Human Being is defined as - any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the speices Homo Sapiens.

The unborn is a member of the species Homo Sapiens (which you just stated

 

[TomZzyzx]

You are misusing human being. I defy you to find a single article to do with embryology that refers to an embryo as a human "being". There is absolutely no argument about a foetus or embryo being either human, or alive. They clearly are. But as to when it becomes a human BEING, thats a whole other argument.

Sorry, must have missed that question. Allow me to answer it now:

Exodus 21:22-24
Hosea 9:11-16
Numbers 5:11-21
Numbers 31:17
Hosea 13:16
2 Kings 15:16

Would you like the pro-infanticide verses now?

Sorry hit send by mistake.

Human Being is defined as - any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the speices Homo Sapiens.

The unborn is a member of the species Homo Sapiens, which you just affirmed by stating "There is absolutely no argument about a foetus or embryo being either human or alive."

Therefore, the unborn is a Human Being at conception.

 

[TomZzyzx]

I'll take shifting the goal posts for $500 please Alex.

And which goal posts would that be? Please explain.

 

[FrancesJames09]

Sure, I was quoting from the New International Version. The Bibles you mentioned don't talk about her going barren, they talk about her stomach swelling and her thigh falling away which seems to me a reference to the child falling out of her body. Even supposing that we took your meaning and found that it meant bareness, what do you think that bareness would mean for the child she hasn't given birth to? Her thigh falling away certainly wouldn't do anything to protect it and I'm pretty sure that hands down it's mean as an abortifacient. Whether it's her stomach swelling and her body miscarrying or her stomach swelling and her "thigh falling away" it certainly doesn't look good for the life of the child.

 

[mathetes123]

Sure, I was quoting from the New International Version. The Bibles you mentioned don't talk about her going barren, they talk about her stomach swelling and her thigh falling away which seems to me a reference to the child falling out of her body. Even supposing that we took your meaning and found that it meant bareness, what do you think that bareness would mean for the child she hasn't given birth to? Her thigh falling away certainly wouldn't do anything to protect it and I'm pretty sure that hands down it's mean as an abortifacient. Whether it's her stomach swelling and her body miscarrying or her stomach swelling and her "thigh falling away" it certainly doesn't look good for the life of the child.

Here is niv version. It does not say miscarry.

<p>Numbers 5:17-28 (NIV)</p><p>^{<small>17</small>}[bless and do not curse]Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. ^{<small>18</small>}[bless and do not curse]After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair* and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy,* while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.* ^{<small>19</small>}[bless and do not curse]Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, &ldquo;If no other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray* and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse* not harm you. ^{<small>20</small>}[bless and do not curse]But if you have gone astray* while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband&rdquo;&mdash; ^{<small>21</small>}[bless and do not curse]here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath*&mdash;&ldquo;may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell.* ^{<small>22</small>}[bless and do not curse]May this water* that brings a curse* enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away.*'&rdquo;
</p><p>&ldquo;&lsquo;Then the woman is to say, &ldquo;Amen. So be it.*&rdquo;
</p><p>^{<small>23</small>}[bless and do not curse]&ldquo;&lsquo;The priest is to write these curses on a scroll* and then wash them off into the bitter water. ^{<small>24</small>}[bless and do not curse]He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering. ^{<small>25</small>}[bless and do not curse]The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the LORD* and bring it to the altar. ^{<small>26</small>}[bless and do not curse]The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering* and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. ^{<small>27</small>}[bless and do not curse]If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away,* and she will become accursed*[Isa 43:28; 65:15; Je 26:6; 29:18; 42:18; 44:12,22; Zec 8:13][Isa 43:28; 65:15; Je 26:6; 29:18; 42:18; 44:12,22; Zec 8:13] among her people. ^{<small>28</small>}[bless and do not curse]If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.
</p>

 

[FrancesJames09]

Bible Gateway says otherwise: Numbers 5:17-28 NIV - Then he shall take some holy water in a - Bible Gateway

It's definitely NIV. It definitely says miscarry. Bible gateway has the largest compilation of Bibles amassed anywhere and in several different languages.

 

[FrancesJames09]

Interestingly, the Spanish says at verse 21 here: 21 que el Señor te convierta en ejemplo de maldición ante el pueblo, y haga que el vientre se te hinche y que tu criatura se malogre.

The word that their using to translate what in English is rendered as miscarriage is the world malograr, here conjugated as the word malogre. Even this word suggests a miscarriage if not an abortion. Looking up in the Spanish dictionary, malograr is defined as: Dicho de una persona o de una cosa: No llegar a su natural desarrollo o perfeccionamiento.

Translation: Said of a person or of a thing: not able to reach its natural maturity or perfection.

There is even a concordance amongst different languages that this is what is being translated.

And some translations do render the word as "dry up" as in the woman's womb would dry up. What would this drying up of the womb do to the baby? Certainly it would kill it. There's no way around it. They're killing a child whether they're causing her womb to dry up and thus causing an abortion or causing it to fall away or as NIV renders it--a miscarriage--it is all the same thing: the killing of a child.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

The exodus verse calls for punishment for a manwho causes a woman to miscarry

Yes... IF... the father of the child calls for a punishment, AND, the important point, while the verse calls for a punishment, please not what the punishment IS, and then compare to the OT punishment for murder. The point is that they are clearly NOT considered to be remotely the same by the OT.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

And which goal posts would that be? Please explain.

The ones where you say "The Bible is totally against abortion", then when shown where the Bible supports it, you say, "Oh, well that sort of abortion is OK, but the Bible is totally against all the other types of abortion, and anyway, I bet not many people do the Biblical one"