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What I don't understand about the arguement for Abortion.
- Thread starter religious&reasonable
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SaraJarvis
Newbie
I just thought that I'd throw some thoughts in here. Now, I'm not a Christian - BUT, if anti-abortion laws had been passed, then right now I would be sat here with a baby on my knee, would have had to drop out of university (I'm in my third year), be living off my Dad's benefits (he's severely ill) which barely stretch between he and my brother (he's 16, and we don't have a Mother). The father of the baby would have fled, and as a consequence of circumstance, we would be pretty much ruined. I would also have had to put my body (MY body), through 9 months of hell (including morning sickness, don't forget that!), hours of labour, and then child-birth. THEN I would have to deal with the body I'm left with after pregnancy (excess weight, stretch marks, and other medical things). All in the name of a God that I don't believe in. Is that fair? I don't think so.
Instead, I'm sat here working on my dissertation, able to pay for my family to get through this climate, teach my brother, look after my Dad, and work up to being a lecturer, to take financial care of my family in the future. My brother will probably never have a high paying job, as we're very poor, and university rates have shot up, etc.
So, like it or lump it - abortion is NOT evil. If you call me selfish, then you're wrong; I'm working for my family to have a better life. There's no way I could have gone through uni while pregnant - the morning sickness was horrendous, and I would probably have never gone back; I'd have had to take a poor paying job to look after my child. Oh, and just for the record; I was on the pill. Doesn't ALWAYS work.
Instead, I'm sat here working on my dissertation, able to pay for my family to get through this climate, teach my brother, look after my Dad, and work up to being a lecturer, to take financial care of my family in the future. My brother will probably never have a high paying job, as we're very poor, and university rates have shot up, etc.
So, like it or lump it - abortion is NOT evil. If you call me selfish, then you're wrong; I'm working for my family to have a better life. There's no way I could have gone through uni while pregnant - the morning sickness was horrendous, and I would probably have never gone back; I'd have had to take a poor paying job to look after my child. Oh, and just for the record; I was on the pill. Doesn't ALWAYS work.
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SaraJarvis said:
So you don't believe in personal responsibility, but that the convenience of the would be mother justifies the killing of an innocent life.
You say you are justified in your belief and it is not morally wrong because you don't believe in God. gods laws apply whether you believe or not. Using your reasoning, you have no basis for making any moral judgements. You could even justify murder. Wait a minute...
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SaraJarvis
Newbie
I'm not a Christian; I believe in science. The only kind of "science" that promotes murder, is those ridiculous abortion videos, made by right-wing Christian fundamentalists.
I do believe in personal responsibility. I was on the pill. I want to take care of my family. I want to look after MY body. I didn't want a baby; I don't see premarital sex as a bad thing. Haha, justify murder? Yes, of course. Because I got rid of the tiny fetus in my womb, I'm justifying all kinds of murder. Of course.
You say God's laws apply; not to me. I don't believe in him, so HOW can they apply? Sorry, but I'm as far left as you can get. I'm currently writing a paper on feminism - but I'd love to hear your argument. That is, if it isn't based off scripture, because that just gets boring.
By the way, you seem to have forgotten one thing; you don't have a womb or a vagina.
Isn't that odd.
I do believe in personal responsibility. I was on the pill. I want to take care of my family. I want to look after MY body. I didn't want a baby; I don't see premarital sex as a bad thing. Haha, justify murder? Yes, of course. Because I got rid of the tiny fetus in my womb, I'm justifying all kinds of murder. Of course.
You say God's laws apply; not to me. I don't believe in him, so HOW can they apply? Sorry, but I'm as far left as you can get. I'm currently writing a paper on feminism - but I'd love to hear your argument. That is, if it isn't based off scripture, because that just gets boring.
By the way, you seem to have forgotten one thing; you don't have a womb or a vagina.
Isn't that odd.
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VolRaider
Regular Member
I'm not a Christian; I believe in science. The only kind of "science" that promotes murder, is those ridiculous abortion videos, made by right-wing Christian fundamentalists.
I do believe in personal responsibility. I was on the pill. I want to take care of my family. I want to look after MY body. I didn't want a baby; I don't see premarital sex as a bad thing. Haha, justify murder? Yes, of course. Because I got rid of the tiny fetus in my womb, I'm justifying all kinds of murder. Of course.
You say God's laws apply; not to me. I don't believe in him, so HOW can they apply? Sorry, but I'm as far left as you can get. I'm currently writing a paper on feminism - but I'd love to hear your argument. That is, if it isn't based off scripture, because that just gets boring.
By the way, you seem to have forgotten one thing; you don't have a womb or a vagina.
You realize abstinence would have worked better than the pill, do you? Also, there is such a thing as adoption.
Also, using your "vagina" logic, why shouldn't us men be allowed to keep women out of certain country clubs? You don't have a penis, so scram! Same logic, if you ask me.
It's not just God's law - it's simply the rule of modern-day humans - you don't kill your young. Period.
As for the abortion videos - what exactly is so stupid about those? It's a known fact that the baby's - er, fetus's - brains are sucked out to the point the skull collapses. Do you deny that?
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SaraJarvis said:I'm not a Christian; I believe in science. The only kind of "science" that promotes murder, is those ridiculous abortion videos, made by right-wing Christian fundamentalists.
I do believe in personal responsibility. I was on the pill. I want to take care of my family. I want to look after MY body. I didn't want a baby; I don't see premarital sex as a bad thing. Haha, justify murder? Yes, of course. Because I got rid of the tiny fetus in my womb, I'm justifying all kinds of murder. Of course.
You say God's laws apply; not to me. I don't believe in him, so HOW can they apply? Sorry, but I'm as far left as you can get. I'm currently writing a paper on feminism - but I'd love to hear your argument. That is, if it isn't based off scripture, because that just gets boring.
By the way, you seem to have forgotten one thing; you don't have a womb or a vagina.
If there is no god, then there cannot be any transcendent, authoritative, absolute moral law, and morality becomes nothing more than one's subjective personal opinion. You can then justify any avoid any kind of condemnation for any behavior. I would suggest this is a prime motivator for many who reject their creator.
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SaraJarvis
Newbie
Let's put it this way; apart from my (merciless, heartless, heathen) aborting of a fetus; I live a perfectly moral life. I don't lie, I don't steal. I'm against war (how do YOU feel about the war in Iraq?), against the death penalty (life long imprisonment is humane. You know, that thing that you think abortion isn't? Yet the death penalty is still legal in some Christian states. Hmm.).
In the name of your God, you have started countless wars, killed innocents, suppressed women, railed against gay people, and attempted to make many a person feel inadequate for their "sins". What has happened in the name of atheism? Any wars? Any repression? Not that I'm saying "Atheists are the best!", because I agree in freedom of opinion. Believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want; however, your laws cannot condemn me, because I don't believe in the story of the Bible.
Another thing that I have noticed; you have only brought up the "murder" of my fetus. What about everything else that I mentioned? You have completely ignored my situation. Why is that?
In the name of your God, you have started countless wars, killed innocents, suppressed women, railed against gay people, and attempted to make many a person feel inadequate for their "sins". What has happened in the name of atheism? Any wars? Any repression? Not that I'm saying "Atheists are the best!", because I agree in freedom of opinion. Believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want; however, your laws cannot condemn me, because I don't believe in the story of the Bible.
Another thing that I have noticed; you have only brought up the "murder" of my fetus. What about everything else that I mentioned? You have completely ignored my situation. Why is that?
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SaraJarvis
Newbie
Abstinence? Yes, of course it would! But as an atheist, why would I become celibate? Yes, of course there is adoption. But why should I put my body through torture to give my child to someone else?
I'm not saying that you have no opinion on women, what I'm saying is that you do not suffer pregnancy.
Nope, that's a load of rubbish, too. Their brains aren't sucked out. I had a medical abortion. It stops the fetus from functioning, and then it is expelled. Also; the fetus doesn’t HAVE skull at this point. I saw the fetus when it was expelled. It was a blob. That was it.
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SharonL
Senior Veteran
I have a friend who lives in England - she was forced as a nurse to assist in abortions, she used the tube that sucks the baby out and it got plugged up - she worked to unplug it and what stopped it ..... the forarm of the baby. We would be put in jail if we did that to our dogs.
I will never forget the vision that one pastor had - he was standing beside Jesus and Jesus was holding the earth in His arms and tears were running down His face and they became more and more until it was raining all over the earth - the heart of Jesus was in mourning for the millions of His creation being murdered.
But one thing that baby that was aborted by an Athiest - it will be in Heaven enjoying all that Jesus has prepared for us for eternity - the mother missed out on enjoying that child on earth and will also miss out for eternity. It is not a piece of tissue without life - it had a soul and lives on.
I will never forget the vision that one pastor had - he was standing beside Jesus and Jesus was holding the earth in His arms and tears were running down His face and they became more and more until it was raining all over the earth - the heart of Jesus was in mourning for the millions of His creation being murdered.
But one thing that baby that was aborted by an Athiest - it will be in Heaven enjoying all that Jesus has prepared for us for eternity - the mother missed out on enjoying that child on earth and will also miss out for eternity. It is not a piece of tissue without life - it had a soul and lives on.
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SaraJarvis said:
Are you sure your bitterness toward God and Christians does not stem from your guilt? God is willing to forgive you. We are all sinners whose "good" works fall short of the mark. That is why we need a savior. Salvation is by God's grace (unmerited favor) and not the result of our good works.
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SaraJarvis
Newbie
Yes, I'm quite sure. I have no guilt for any "sins". I live a happy life; I am loved, and love in return. I don't wish to be forgiven for being happy. I don't need a Saviour; I just need my own self-will, and dignity. I had the best childhood I could have asked for, and my adulthood is heading in the same direction.
Yes, partial abortions are the kind of thing that happens when it is left too late; usually because of the woman not knowing she is pregnant, or problems in the womb. Not barbaric; a defect. I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen, but it is in the minority.
As for the person who mentioned their pastor’s vision – well, that’s just what it is. A vision. People don’t have “visions”. Just good imaginations, or dreams. Unless, of course, said pastor indulged in the odd bit of LSD.
Again; no one has commented on situation of abortion. My situation made it impossible for me to remain pregnant. Funny how you all ignore that. You have also ignored almost every question that I have asked in my previous posts. Why is that? I answer your questions and statements; you just keep making completely irrelevant remarks to my posts.
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P
paintedgoldfish
Guest
The bottom line is that a pregnancy occurs within the body of a woman.
There is no government, no law and no exceptions that should prohibit a woman from receiving medical care for her body, even if there are other people in society who disagree with her medical decision.
We cannot legislate our beliefs about God. What good would it be if we save the unborn and allow a woman to go without salvation? What happens when that unborn child becomes a pregnant woman? Do we ignore her soul at that point in order to save her unborn?
I would think that, as Christians, our focus should always be to exhibit the love of God to others. God himself gives us free will, who are we to take that free will from others?
We cannot and should not legislate what medical care a woman is able to receive. Let God deal with what is a sin and what isn't a sin.
Women do not generally make a decision to abort lightly. It is a major decision that will have effects on her life no matter what she chooses. I just think it is immoral of us to assume that we can make that decision for her or to judge her for making it.
There is no government, no law and no exceptions that should prohibit a woman from receiving medical care for her body, even if there are other people in society who disagree with her medical decision.
We cannot legislate our beliefs about God. What good would it be if we save the unborn and allow a woman to go without salvation? What happens when that unborn child becomes a pregnant woman? Do we ignore her soul at that point in order to save her unborn?
I would think that, as Christians, our focus should always be to exhibit the love of God to others. God himself gives us free will, who are we to take that free will from others?
We cannot and should not legislate what medical care a woman is able to receive. Let God deal with what is a sin and what isn't a sin.
Women do not generally make a decision to abort lightly. It is a major decision that will have effects on her life no matter what she chooses. I just think it is immoral of us to assume that we can make that decision for her or to judge her for making it.
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SharonL
Senior Veteran
The Lord woke me in the middle of the night at a friends house - pitch dark and nothing to write with - This is how He gives me the poems and I knew I had to find something to write with - I only get them one time and I can't go back and get them later. This is the poem he verly clearly gave me.
GOD NEVER LOSES EVEN ONE
Your pathway has been carefully
planned and designed.
Whether you walk it out on the earth
or spend it with Jesus, all will be fine.
The Word tells us Jesus knew you before you were born.
He tells us your days have been recorded
in the Book of Life where pages are never torn.
Some of you have been discarded and called just "tissue."
Don't worry little one, with God that's not an issue.
Our Father's plans for you will not go astray.
How precious your life is we will still convey.
If you are allowed to complete your journey here on the earth,
either way my child, your existence is recorded as a birth.
If you have not been allowed to minister
to those our Father designed for you here,
your place with Jesus has already been marked for you,
so have no fear.
Jesus tells us the angels will teach you
the oracles of God and His ways.
He will prepare you and you will still recognize
and welcome that mother and father in only a few days.
Forgiveness is waiting for those whose heart is heavy
for the deeds they have done,
for you see sweet child
"God never looses even one."
I don't think God would have given this poem for a glob of tissue. It has saved many babies, there are testimonies that have been sent to me 3 years later saying my child is on stage singing 'Jesus loves me' and all because of that poem.
GOD NEVER LOSES EVEN ONE
Your pathway has been carefully
planned and designed.
Whether you walk it out on the earth
or spend it with Jesus, all will be fine.
The Word tells us Jesus knew you before you were born.
He tells us your days have been recorded
in the Book of Life where pages are never torn.
Some of you have been discarded and called just "tissue."
Don't worry little one, with God that's not an issue.
Our Father's plans for you will not go astray.
How precious your life is we will still convey.
If you are allowed to complete your journey here on the earth,
either way my child, your existence is recorded as a birth.
If you have not been allowed to minister
to those our Father designed for you here,
your place with Jesus has already been marked for you,
so have no fear.
Jesus tells us the angels will teach you
the oracles of God and His ways.
He will prepare you and you will still recognize
and welcome that mother and father in only a few days.
Forgiveness is waiting for those whose heart is heavy
for the deeds they have done,
for you see sweet child
"God never looses even one."
I don't think God would have given this poem for a glob of tissue. It has saved many babies, there are testimonies that have been sent to me 3 years later saying my child is on stage singing 'Jesus loves me' and all because of that poem.
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SaraJarvis
Newbie
Exactly. Well said. My abortion choice wasn't easy; every woman has maternal instincts. My choice was for the best, and I had to put myself through 6 hours of induced labour to go through with it. But it was right. It made me focus on university, and I knew that if I aborted, I had to live up to the goals I made for myself by remaining in study.
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SaraJarvis
Newbie
Nice poem. I'll have some of whatever you're smoking.
On a serious note; that isn't God waking you up. You're a writer, obviously; therefore you write. I do the same. I wake up with ideas, and feel the urge to write.
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paintedgoldfish said:
While we are not to judge others, as Christians, we are called to discern right from wrong, and should not support laws which violate God's laws.
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SaraJarvis
Newbie
Well then, don't support it; live and let live. Allow others to do what they wish, if they choose to. You don't have to support it. Why work to hurt others? Because, trust me; if I had been denied an abortion, then it would have hurt me.
Aside from this; if it was illegal, people would still find ways, and end up killing both themselves and the baby. Ever heard of backstreet abortions? Now THEY were barbaric. Poor women.
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