What I don't understand about the arguement for Abortion.

[mathetes123]

There's no chance in the first trimester, so that should be without a doubt legal. There is virtually no chance in the second trimester as well so I see no reason not to allow it then either. Banning it for the third trimester or thereabouts wouldn't bother me so long as exceptions were made for cases that threatening the life of the mother.

Brain function begins at about 40 days. The comparison with the definition of death of a fully formed human as no brain function to an unborn baby that has not reached that stage of development does not take into consideration that an adult who has no brain function does not have the capacity to restore the brain function, whereas an unborn baby has the capacity to develop brain function, if not killed before given the time to develop to that stage.

 

[Incariol]

Brain function begins at about 40 days.

Were you going to give a scientific source for that? Synapsing is largely ongoing well into the second trimester, so it hard to believe that that could possibly be true.

 

[acropolis]

Brain function begins at about 40 days. The comparison with the definition of death of a fully formed human as no brain function to an unborn baby that has not reached that stage of development does not take into consideration that an adult who has no brain function does not have the capacity to restore the brain function, whereas an unborn baby has the capacity to develop brain function, if not killed before given the time to develop to that stage.

It's the higher brain functions determine personhood, and those are developed later. But again, there are other reasons to support the legalization of abortion.

 

[mathetes123]

It's the higher brain functions determine personhood, and those are developed later. But again, there are other reasons to support the legalization of abortion.

Is that according to man or God?

Psa 139:13 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well.
Psa 139:15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Psa 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

 

[Incariol]

Is that according to man or God?

<p>Psalms 139:14-16 (ESV)</p><blockquote>^{<small>14</small>}[bless and do not curse]I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.*</blockquote><blockquote>*Wonderful are your works;
</blockquote><blockquote>my soul knows it very well.
</blockquote><blockquote>^{<small>15</small>}[bless and do not curse]*My frame was not hidden from you,
</blockquote><blockquote>when I was being made in secret,
</blockquote><blockquote>intricately woven in *the depths of the earth.
</blockquote><blockquote>^{<small>16</small>}[bless and do not curse]Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
</blockquote><blockquote>in your *book were written, every one of them,
</blockquote><blockquote>the days that were formed for me,
</blockquote><blockquote>when as yet there was none of them.
</blockquote>

Do you even know what the subject is? We are talking about developmental neurobiology. You were even the one to bring it up in the first place.

 

[TomZzyzx]

I did answer you. We can and do know that there is no functioning brain in the first trimester and for the majority of the second trimester, so those periods should be legal. The uncertainty only appears towards the end of the pregnancy when the higher brain develops. It is possible that late-term abortions kill people, but not abortions earlier in pregnancy. So, in respect of that uncertainty, I wouldn't be bothered by a ban on late-term abortions for reasons other than protecting the safety of the mother, especially because those abortions basically don't happen unless it's for medical reasons.

So you agree that some abortions kill innocent human persons. You say at the beginning of the third trimester, others I have talked to have said the beginning of the second trimester, and still others have said as soon as the unborn develops a brain. So again, no one knows for sure when the unborn becomes a person. Why are we doing abortions if we don't know for sure when the unborn becomes a person. Maybe personhood is a bad way to determine when a woman can have an abortion. Maybe we should respect all human life. No matter at what stage of development they are, unborn, infant, child, adult or elderly.

I will tell you that I believe that the only time that an abortion is acceptable is when the mothers life is in danger.

 

[mathetes123]

Do you even know what the subject is? We are talking about developmental neurobiology. You were even the one to bring it up in the first place.

No, we were talking about when personhood begins.

 

[mathetes123]

So you agree that some abortions kill innocent human persons. You say at the beginning of the third trimester, others I have talked to have said the beginning of the second trimester, and still others have said as soon as the unborn develops a brain. So again, no one knows for sure when the unborn becomes a person. Why are we doing abortions if we don't know for sure when the unborn becomes a person. Maybe personhood is a bad way to determine when a woman can have an abortion. Maybe we should respect all human life. No matter at what stage of development they are, unborn, infant, child, adult or elderly.

I will tell you that I believe that the only time that an abortion is acceptable is when the mothers life is in danger.

Amen!

 

[Incariol]

No, we were talking about when personhood begins.

*patiently* And you started talking about the brain as an aspect of personhood, which is developmental neurobiology, remember? Please try to keep track of your own conversational thread.

 

[acropolis]

So you agree that some abortions kill innocent human persons. You say at the beginning of the third trimester, others I have talked to have said the beginning of the second trimester, and still others have said as soon as the unborn develops a brain. So again, no one knows for sure when the unborn becomes a person. Why are we doing abortions if we don't know for sure when the unborn becomes a person. Maybe personhood is a bad way to determine when a woman can have an abortion. Maybe we should respect all human life. No matter at what stage of development they are, unborn, infant, child, adult or elderly.

I will tell you that I believe that the only time that an abortion is acceptable is when the mothers life is in danger.

The gray area of personhood lies in the later stages of pregnancy. There is nothing wrong with aborting in the first trimester. There is no functioning brain, no person, so no reason to force the mother to suffer simply for the sake of arbitrarily placing personhood at conception.

 

[mathetes123]

*patiently* And you started talking about the brain as an aspect of personhood, which is developmental neurobiology, remember? Please try to keep track of your own conversational thread.

Nice try at diversion, but the subject is when does personhood begin. Try to keep up.

The idea of personhood beginning with brain function is purely a man made artificial milestone. God, as the author of life, determines when life begins.

Psa 139:13 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well.
Psa 139:15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Psa 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

 

[Incariol]

Nice try at diversion, but the subject is when does personhood begin. Try to keep up.

In this case, I will assume your functional brain post was nothing more than a weird burst of... I dunno, meaningless opinion and ignore it. If you don't want to discuss neuroscience, I recommend not bringing it up in the future.

The idea of personhood beginning with brain function is purely a man made artificial milestone. God determines when life begins.

Psa 139:13 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well.
Psa 139:15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Psa 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Since you are the one who brought a functional brain up as a milestone to start with, I don't know why you are telling me this. Are you monologuing?

 

[mathetes123]

In this case, I will assume your functional brain post was nothing more than a weird burst of... I dunno, meaningless opinion and ignore it. If you don't want to discuss neuroscience, I recommend not bringing it up in the future.



Since you are the one who brought a functional brain up as a milestone to start with, I don't know why you are telling me this. Are you monologuing?

I was not the one to bring up the function brain as a milestone. I responded to another poster who presented this as the beginning of personhood. I think you are getting your posters confused.

As a Christian, what do these verses mean to you?

 

[TomZzyzx]

The gray area of personhood lies in the later stages of pregnancy. There is nothing wrong with aborting in the first trimester. There is no functioning brain, no person, so no reason to force the mother to suffer simply for the sake of arbitrarily placing personhood at conception.

That's your opinion, and your opinion doesn't guarantee that an abortion isn't killing an innocent person. Maybe the unborn becomes a person before the start of the first trimester.

 

[Incariol]

I was not the one to bring up the function brain as a milestone. I responded to another poster who presented this as the beginning of personhood. I think you are getting your posters confused.

As a Christian, what do these verses mean to you?

It's poetry, not a science textbook.

 

[mathetes123]

It's poetry, not a science textbook.

It says God formed you when you were in your mothers womb and knew you before you were born. Doesn't sound like he is unclear on when life begins.

Again, I ask you as a Christian, what do these verses mean to you? Do not avoid the anwswer this time or I will have to assume that your reluctance to answer means that the answer would tend to discredit your argument for abortion.

 

[Incariol]

That's your opinion, and your opinion doesn't guarantee that an abortion isn't killing an innocent person. Maybe the unborn becomes a person before the start of the first trimester.

Why don't you abandon this charade of a dialogue and just make the point you are so obviously aiming for already?

 

[mathetes123]

The gray area of personhood lies in the later stages of pregnancy. There is nothing wrong with aborting in the first trimester. There is no functioning brain, no person, so no reason to force the mother to suffer simply for the sake of arbitrarily placing personhood at conception.

Aren't you arbitrarily defining personhood at brain function? Upon what moral authority do you make that claim?

 

[Incariol]

It says God formed you when you were in your mothers womb and knew you before you were born. Doesn't sound like he is unclear on when life begins.

Again, I ask you as a Christian, what do these verses mean to you? Do not avoid the anwswer this time or I will have to assume the answer would tend to discredit your argument for abortion.

"Again, I ask you as a Christian, what do these verses mean to you? Do not avoid answering as I specifically want you to or I ignore whatever you say anyways and just make believe that you gave me the answer I wanted."

Don't waste my time, if you aren't interested in having an adult conversation, don't expect me to parrot the answers so you can run through your pre-written debate script. I said they are poetical, not literal.

I also note you have somehow shifted to a discussion of "when life begins" from "when personhood begins".

 

[mathetes123]

"Again, I ask you as a Christian, what do these verses mean to you? Do not avoid answering as I specifically want you to or I ignore whatever you say anyways and just make believe that you gave me the answer I wanted."

Don't waste my time, if you aren't interested in having an adult conversation, don't expect me to parrot the answers so you can run through your pre-written debate script. I said they are poetical, not literal.

I also note you have somehow shifted to a discussion of "when life begins" from "when personhood begins".

So you are conceding the debate by your continued avoidance of the answer. You have no moral authority to support your advocacy of killing the unborn, whether from a Christian standpoint or a worldy standpoint.