What hell is like.

[josyau]

Luke 23:43 And he said to him, Truly I say to you, today will you be with me in Paradise.

Luke 23:43 And he said to him, Truly I say to you today, will you be with me in Paradise.

Though very similar, these two come to different conclusions. The manuscripts of the pass did not use verses, chapters, are commas. The question is where does that second comma belong? I believe it belongs after today as indeed Messiah did not resurrect that day nor was he in Paradise.

 

[Michael Mc]

I agree, the comma is most certainly misplaced. The origional manuscripts were not inspired with punctuation marks. Christ did not go to paradise on the day of His crucifixion:

Christ was in the heart of the earth for three days following His crucifixion. (Matt. 12:40)

After three days and nights, Jesus met with Merriam "Do NOT TOUCH ME, for NOT AS YET HAVE I ASCENDED TO MY FATHER" (John 20:17). Jesus went on to be with His disciples for 40 days.

Jesus either stood the thief up, or the comma is in the wrong place.

 

[MagusAlbertus]

Luke 23:43 And he said to him, Truly I say to you, today will you be with me in Paradise.

Luke 23:43 And he said to him, Truly I say to you today, will you be with me in Paradise.

Though very similar, these two come to different conclusions. The manuscripts of the pass did not use verses, chapters, are commas. The question is where does that second comma belong? I believe it belongs after today as indeed Messiah did not resurrect that day nor was he in Paradise.

yep.


****
here's my view:


When we die we hang out in the grave.



This is eternal for all intents-and-purposes, as time slows t'll their is an un-ending perspective, we are torn down and what is at the center of our soul is revealed *be it Jesus, self-righteousness, or hedonism*



In this time we 'sleep' waiting for the resurrection and judgment that is at the end of all time, we wait t'll then because only then are all the repercussions of our sin-acts known.



When we are resurrected in judgment we stand where we eternally stood in life, with or against Jesus, against or with Jesus. Those who have made themselves ready with 'lamp oil' for the return of their master will be allowed into the wedding with Jesus, those who are not will be locked outside the gates... many will cry "Lord Lord" but Jesus will respond "depart from me, i never knew you";



Those who harm children will spend this time out-side the gates of heaven in a place where worms never die.



I believe this because I believe the words of Christ as written in the bible.

 

[Der Alte]

I agree, the comma is most certainly misplaced. The origional manuscripts were not inspired with punctuation marks. Christ did not go to paradise on the day of His crucifixion:

Christ was in the heart of the earth for three days following His crucifixion. (Matt. 12:40)

After three days and nights, Jesus met with Merriam "Do NOT TOUCH ME, for NOT AS YET HAVE I ASCENDED TO MY FATHER" (John 20:17). Jesus went on to be with His disciples for 40 days.
Jesus either stood the thief up, or the comma is in the wrong place.

Well, people can blaspheme and make false statements all they want, claim whatever they want about the scriptures but the clear unalterable fact is there is only one comma, in the original manuscripts of Luke 23:43. Unlike many passages which shows some differences in the manuscript evidence, there is not one, single manuscript which shows more than one comma in the verse and that comma is placed after “soi/you” and before “semeron/today.” And the punctuation, whenever and wherever it occurs, in the manuscripts, is every bit as as much inspired as the words.

Luk 23:43​

​

Kai eiren autw o IehsouV amhn legw soi, shmeron met emon esh en tw paradeisw.​

 

[Der Alte]

In Revelation "Hades" is thrown into the Lake of Fire (the equivalent to Gehenna). Now I don't believe this is speaking of "hell" being tossed into another placed called the Lake of Fire which seems to be the same type of place (a place of burning).

I look at this as being the Grave/Death being tossed into the Lake of Fire (symbolic of total eradication) thus being forever eliminated.

Another false interpretation of one out-of-context verse based on an obvious incomplete knowledge of the scripture and the theories and doctrines of men.

In Rev 20:14 who or what is thrown into the lake of fire? Read the Bible and quit posting the false doctrines of men. In Rev 6:8, the angel of death riding the pale horse and the demon of hell following him. In Rev 20:14, both demons are thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

And of course with all this man made misinterpretation of scripture everyone has ignored my discussion of Mark 9:43-50. A total of eleven warnings and according to what I have read, it is all supposedly about a garbage dump. Jesus is supposedly warning people that after they die, are lying in their graves not conscious of anything, the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem will continue to burn and be filled with worms.

Jesus did not say “the worms” but “their worms dieth not.” Once people are dead nothing is “theirs” any longer. I would be interested in knowing the Theological meaning that Jesus was telling His followers about the garbage dump, fire, and worms, after they die and why it would matter to dead people?

 

[Der Alte]

After reading your links I was not able to locate where it said that sheol was where people burned.

Here is what I was responding to. You did not say anything about burning in this quote, therefore my response did not address that. If you really want to know the truth then read the Bible, all the Bible, and not just your handful of proof texts.

These two verses are not completely clear to mean something other than grave. Sheol is a curious word, in that it has been translated to mean three different words. Hell, Grave, and Pit. Now which one is to be it's true meaning? There are 61 other verses in the Old Testament that have the word sheol. The context of these two verses in no way limits the meaning of sheol to eternal torment.

Your two verse could just as easily and more correctly be translated as grave, which would bring them into harmony with the rest of scripture.

Let me understand, God used words and sayings that have no meaning, and Jesus twice spoke of things that were not true.

Do not misquote me or put words in my mouth. That is the same as lying. If you do not understand what I say, then ask me, don't try to throw your mental garbage off on me.

 

[josyau]

Yes Magnus, when we die we all go to the grave "Sheol/Hades". When the end comes Yahshua will resurrect the dead saints to live forevermore thus the passage "the gates of Hades will not prevail against the church". The prison bars of the grave will have to release us from it's grip at the sound of his voice, praise YHWH!

The wicked dead will be resurrected from it in the second resurrection to receive their judgment according to their works. From here death, Sheol/Hades, and the wicked will be tossed into the Lake of Fire (the equivalent to "Gehenna") and destroyed.

No soul separating from the body to go to heaven or hell just to be reunited with that body later on for a judgment which has already been concluded at the moment of death.

 

[Der Alte]

The Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna.

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a). The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.). The mouth is narrow, impeding the smoke, but below Gehenna extends indefinitely (Men. 99b). According to one opinion, it is above the firmament, and according to another, behind the dark mountains (Ta'an. 32b). An Arabian pointed out to a scholar the spot in the wilderness where the earth swallowed the sons of Korah (Num. xvi. 31-32), who descended into Gehenna (Sanh. 110b). It is situated deep down in the earth, and is immeasurably large. "The earth is one-sixtieth of the garden, the garden one-sixtieth of Eden [paradise], Eden one-sixtieth of Gehenna; hence the whole world is like a lid for Gehenna. Some say that Gehenna can not be measured" (Pes. 94a). It is divided into seven compartments (Sotah 10b); a similar view was held by the Babylonians (Jeremias, "Hölle und Paradies bei den Babyloniern," pp. 16 et seq., Leipsic, 1901; Guthe, "Kurzes Bibel-wörterb." p. 272, Tübingen and Leipsic, 1903).
Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b). This is "the fire of the West, which every setting sun receives. I came to a fiery river, whose fire flows like water, and which empties into a large sea in the West" (Enoch, xvii. 4-6). Hell here is described exactly as in the Talmud. The Persians believed that glowing molten metal flowed under the feet of sinners (Schwally, "Das Leben nach dem Tode," p. 145, Giessen, 1892). The waters of the warm springs of Tiberias are heated while flowing past Gehenna (Shab. 39a). The fire of Gehenna never goes out (Tosef., Ber. 6, 7; Mark ix. 43 et seq.; Matt. xviii. 8, xxv. 41; comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176); there is always plenty of wood there (Men. 100a). This fire is sixty times as hot as any earthly fire (Ber. 57b). There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθες Ιστορίαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire. Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b). They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a).

The valley of Hinnom

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G
​

​

 

[Der Alte]

Despite absolutely no historical evidence to support it, it has been suggested that Jesus did not say to the criminal who was crucified with him, “Today you will be with me in paradise.” False teachers want to hocus-pocus, create a comma out of nothing and stick it in the verse to make it agree with the teachings of men. Here is the verse in English and Greek. Note that the words of Jesus begin with a word translated as “Verily” or “Truly.” It is the Hebrew word, “Amen.” Why would it have been necessary for Jesus to tell the thief, “Truly I (Jesus and not someone else) say to you. . .” The thief would have known it was Jesus speaking. Or why would Jesus have to tell the thief, “Truly I say to you today (and not some other day). . .?” The thief could clearly see that Jesus was speaking to Him that day.

I do not know of any instance, in the N.T., where Jesus said, “I say to you today,. . .” something that was meant for a time somewhere in the future.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Luk 23:43​

Kai eiren autw o IehsouV amhn legw soi, shmeron met emon esh en tw paradeisw.​

 

[Michael Mc]

Then you can show me that Jesus was in Paradise before He was ressurected?
On that day that He spoke those words to the thief?

Any scriptures provided would be appreciated.

Do not misquote me or put words in my mouth. That is the same as lying. If you do not understand what I say, then ask me, don't try to throw your mental garbage off on me.

I was essentially asking you if I had your position correct, I simply forgot the question mark at the end of it.

So, Let me understand, God used words and sayings that have no meaning, and Jesus twice spoke of things that were not true? And this I ask in light of your earlier comments that:

First God and Jesus exist outside of time. In God's kingdom terms like first and last, before and after, have no meaning.

I am asking you if I understand you correctly, if not, could you please explain where I've gone wrong. (From the scriptures, I already have a pretty good idea of your opinion on my position in this discussion)

Thank you and God Bless,

 

[josyau]

Has anyone ever ventured into the many scriptures that describe the state of the dead? I was blessed when I looked into every scripture dealing with the words die, dead, death, and sleep. These passages were very enlightening.

I have a question: If those who are asleep (dead) go immediately to heaven or hell where they are consciously awake (sounds like a contradiction already don't you think) where does this following passage make sense:


Now if Messiah be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13. But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Messiah not risen:
14. And if Messiah be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of G-d; because we have testified of G-d that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16. For if the dead rise not, then is not Messiah raised:
17. And if Messiah be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Messiah are perished.
19. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20. But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Now this passage seems quite odd if souls go immediately to heaven regardless of a resurrection. What would be the danger of no resurrection seeing how the soul would be just fine in heaven? Why would they yet be in their sins, why would those who served Messiah perish if there's no resurrection? Messiah would still be in heaven and so would those people right?

Now if soiuls are not separate from the body (as per Gen.2:7 dust + breath = soul) then there would be major problems if there is no resurrection of the dead. Then Messiah would be currently in Hades making our faith vain because there would be no hope at life. The curse of sin would take us all without remedy and we would remain permanently dead (the very curse of the wicked when their judged).


This is what makes both the curse in Genesis and the Resurrection so vital. In Genesis the adversary lied to Eve by stating that she would not die and that they would be as g-d's. The sad thing was (as the adversary always does) Adam & Eve would have not died if they would have obeyed G-d. They also were already as g-ds in a sense because dominion over G-d's creation was given them. The adversary deceived them into disobeying G-d in order to receive what they already really had. Unfortunately being practically g-ds on the earth was not enough for them. To be as G-d was to tempting to pass up.

G-d promised them that the day they ate of that fruit they would die. The judgment was given them that day (though the actual event would take place later) that was done by removing them from the tree of life. Now we see that the curse has a heavy effect on all mankind seeing how the human race was cut off from the tree of life by the sin of the chief human "First Adam"
So every human was subject to be eternally dead after living a short existence.

Now we see why it is so important that the resurrection came by the obedience of the second man (chief human in the age to come) "Second Adam" who did not try to be G-d himself also rejecting the adversary's temptations in things he already had coming to him if he obeyed. The gift of eternal life, the hope of the resurrection, and the tree of life are so important now because we are now delivered from being forever in the grave.

The resurrection does not mean too much and the lie of the adversary would hold true if souls were automatically immortal apart from the body. Compare the two:

1. We are already in heaven living eternally, in the end we will reunite with our physical bodies at the resurrection.

2. We will be in the grave sleep awaiting the resurrection, in the end we will be awakened to gain eternal bodies by having access to the tree of life once removed from us.

#2 serves a much greater purpose, without it we would remain in the grave. This is why Hades cannot prevail against the chuch. Most people interpret this as meaning that Hell will not be able to prevail in it's attacks against the church (though gates are not an offensive weapon). Gates serve as a defensive measure to restrict access or to hold something within it. Both these usages will be prevailed over: Messiah has the key to the gates of Hades and will loose those gates at the resurrection. We held captive in it by the curse will be let loose. Thus the gates will not prevail in holding the church captive because his church will be delivered per the resurrection.

 

[MagusAlbertus]

it's simply that time has no meaning when you're in eternity.

 

[josyau]

Here's another issue, the saints spoke about the condition of the dead in scripture. They were either speaking about it from a understanding that 1. the soul separates from the body upon death and goes to heaven/hell. or 2. the person that dies was dead, period.

Ps. 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Why bother making this statement if dead saints would be able to remember G-d and give Him thanks in heaven immediately after death?

Ps. 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

Ps. 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Why not? Are they not in heaven doing back flips praising Him madly for making it to heaven?

Ecc. 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Job 14:10-12 But man dies, and wastes away: yes, man expires, and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decays and dries up: So man lies down, and rises not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Strange question and statement for someone who understood that saints would be immediately in heaven and sinners in hell.


Is. 38:18-19 For the grave cannot praise you, death can not celebrate you: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for your truth. The living, the living, he shall praise you, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Yes, the living can do so but not the dead because they are dead not in heaven floating around in a separated soul. It takes both the body and breath of life to have a soul.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Would they not be hearing him from heaven or hell?

The soul is a combination that makes a whole (e.g beans & beef + tortilla = burrito, without one of those two you have no burrito). A body without the breath of life is not a soul and the breath of life without a body is not a soul.

 

[MagusAlbertus]

Right, at the end of eternity God will raise us up and judge us.

But remember time-perspectives are different because in eternity: what is was and will be are all at once. The incomprehensibility of this, I believe, is the cause of most of the arguments.

No soul separating from the body to go to heaven or hell just to be reunited with that body later on for a judgment which has already been concluded at the moment of death.

If you've listened to people with near-death-experiences it's also obvious that God's setup our start into eternity with the last few perceptions of our mind before we die. You could say that our spirit has a place ‘heaven or hell’ that it views eternity’s wait until the judgment comes. But that’s an extra biblical view on scripture.

The soul is a combination that makes a whole (e.g beans & beef + tortilla = burrito, without one of those two you have no burrito).

I don’t put that much weight in our physical being, as I’m sure God can do things any way he likes, but I see no reason to disagree with it.

 

[marc37]

Hell is a place that is cold and lonely and full of fear and pain.I have never been there but I have met the devil so I have an idea what that place is like.
Have mercy for those that are in the hands of evil.

 

[MagusAlbertus]

Hell is a place that is cold and lonely and full of fear and pain.
Have mercy for those that are in the hands of evil.

I've been there! it wasn't all that much fun, i don't mind tell'n ya. Jesus is the only way out, for sure.

 

[hraedisc]

What hell is like...

2 Peter 2:6
Jude 1:7

 

[josyau]

What hell is like...

2 Peter 2:6
Jude 1:7

These passages are a good example of what "Gehenna"/Lake of Fire/Final Judgment/Second Death will be like. Sodom/Gomorrah was destroyed by G-d's intense wrath, destroyed by fire. The greatest thing about this example is that as said in Jude 1:7 they suffered eternal fire, not that the fire was eternal (there's no Sodom/Gomorrah or a continous fire today) but the effect is eternal/everlasting.

Sodom/Gomorrah were purged and suffered an eternal judgment, so will the wicked. Death, Grave, the adversary, men's creation/kingdoms will all be purged and removed from before G-d eternally through a fire that can't be quenched (by man).

 

[Der Alte]

Then you can show me that Jesus was in Paradise before He was ressurected?

On that day that He spoke those words to the thief?

I already did. A few half baked distortions about Luke 23:43 have been posted but no factual evidence of any kind. As I have posted there is absolutely no manuscript evidence to support a comma except between, thee and today. And yes the Greeks had commas, they invented them.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Luk 23:43​

Kai eiren autw o IehsouV amhn legw soi, shmeron met emon esh en tw paradeisw.​

 

[Der Alte]

Has anyone ever ventured into the many scriptures that describe the state of the dead?

Why? You haven't, all you do is quote the ones that seem to support your presuppositions.