What hell is like.

[MagusAlbertus]

Der Alter: Thanks for the support! Very informative.

Jo:

Magnus are there any scriptures you feel does show Sheol as a place where people burn in the Tanach?

Yes, actualy, as per dute 32, and further explained by Jesus.



I’ve got respect for mesianics, but you do know you don’t speak for all mesianics right?



And you asked I point out if I think a suningly good point was made by someone else, and I think *no comentary in this thread needed* this link is a fine one http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=614&letter=S



Is 38 explains a prity hell like place to me as well, and when you remove ‘truth’ you have a revalations like place out of the sight of God.

How could someone possibly be carrying on an intellegent conversation with someone else while burning?

in angish.. Jesus on the cross comes to mind.

Why would someone ask Abraham if they could be resurrected seeing how they would know only G-d had such ability?

poor fella was being driven nuts by the situation, he also asked for a drop of water.. something imposible as well.

why would a person be concerned with their tongue instead of their whole body?

that’s actualy part of the deaper spiritual truth to the facts of this situation. That he want’s only the smallest amount of a small bessing for the smallest part of himself… but still he gets nothing.



Very sad, and a very very unplesant place: don’t you think?

Are there any other scriptures that proves a concept of Abraham's bosom being a place where saints went after death?

heaven’s heaven, I’m sure abraha’s hangin’ out their along with both of the Lazerus’s.

 

[Der Alte]

Here is what the Jewish Encyclopedia says about Abraham’s bosom.

Jewish Encyclopedia-ABRAHAM'S BOSOM:

In the New Testament and in Jewish writings a term signifying the abode of bliss in the other world. According to IV Macc. xiii. 17, the righteous who die for their faith are received by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in paradise (compare Matt. viii. 11: "Many shall come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven"). In ?id. 72b, Adda bar Ahaba, a rabbi of the third century, is said to be "sitting in the bosom of Abraham," which means that he has entered paradise. With this should be compared the statement of R. Levi (Gen. R. xlviii.): "In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant" (see Circumcision).

In the Hellenistic Testament of Abraham it is Adam, the representative of humanity, who sits at the gate of hell and paradise; the Jewish view of later times placed Abraham, the progenitor of Israel, in Adam's place. This was also the view of the New Testament writers as presented in Luke, xvi. 19-31, the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus, the beggar, died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's Bosom; the rich man died and was put into Gehenna, where he saw Lazarus in the Bosom of Abraham, full of joy, whereas he suffered great torment. Thereat he cried: "Father Abraham, have mercy on me!" and finally he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his father's house to admonish his five brothers to lead lives characterized by repentance, in order not to meet the same fate as his own. Whereupon Abraham said: "They have the law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets; let them be mindful of these, and they will enter paradise as well as Lazarus." On Lazarus (Eliezer) and Abraham see Geiger's "Jüdische Zeitschrift für Wissenschaft und Leben," vii. 200. It is plain that Abraham is here viewed as the warden of paradise, like Michael in Jewish and St. Peter in Christian folk-lore ("Texts and Studies," v. 55, 69, Cambridge). Of Abraham as attorney pleading for Israel, R. Jonathan also speaks (Shab. 89b). K

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=362&letter=A
​

 

[Michael Mc]

Luk 16:22 (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

If this be a literal story, then it presents another problem in relation to the scriptures. How could Lazarus be in Heaven while our Lord was still here on earth?

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the firstfruit of those who are reposing." (I Cor. 15:20).

Jesus is the the fristfruit, or first to be roused from the dead. Not even David had been roused, no not anyone:

"NO MAN has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven."(John 3:13).

How can it be that while our Lord was here on earth that Lazarus and Abraham are both in heaven, when Jesus plainly says that: "...no man has ascended up to heaven..."?

 

[Michael Mc]

"Verily, I am saying to you, More tolerable will it be for the land of Sodom and the land of Gomorrah in that DAY OF JUDGING than for that city." (Matt. 10:15)

Why is the rich man in eternal hellfire, when he has not has his day of judgment? When our Lord was telling this parable the judgment was yet future.

"Men, Ninevites, will be rising in the judging with this generation and will be condemning it..." (Mat. 12:41)

The righteous Nenevites have not been risen, nor the evil men of Sodom and Gomorrah. Why was the rich man in torments before the day of judging?

And what constitutes a sentence to hell? Does not most of christianity declare that it is the rejecting of Christs sacrifice that sends one to hell? It was literaly impossible for the rich man to reject the sacrifce of Christ, for Christ was not yet crucified!

http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

A God who would send people to "hell" for the reasons many fundamentalists believe he would would not be God at all, but evil and totally unworthy to worship. While I believe that wholeheartedly-as well as believing such a God does not exist except in cowardly minds-I am not a Universalist either. However, we don't know, and cannot know, details of this during this life. It's better to focus on doing what's right now and avoid such idle speculation.

Mormons do embrace the concept of "outer darkness" as a place for the totally evil that may have some merit; however their three afterworld scenario consisting of the Celestial, Terestrial, and Telestial Kingdoms strikes me as similar to a time share deal: the Salt Lake Hierarchy says to the faithful basically "You guys do what we say and then we'll get you a piece of the best real estate in eternity." or so it seems to me.

OTOH, Fundamentalists often appear to delight not so much in the belief they themselves are going to Heaven as that others of which they don't approve of will not. An old joke has an angel showing a recently deceased fellow around Heaven. Finally they come to long, high black fence with red letters spelling "KEEP OUT!" on it. The guy asks 'What's behind there?" and the Angel shushes him and whispers "It's where the Fundamentalists live; they think there's no one else here."

 

[MagusAlbertus]

A God who would send people to "hell" for the reasons many fundamentalists believe he would would not be God at all

If you hold that your God can't send anyone to hell, your right! he can't! because he's not real!



The God of the bible is a God of justice.. an incorruptible Judge.. if a Judge let a bank robber free because he said 'sorry' then that wouldn't be a very good judge at all.. that'd actually be a corrupt judge.



Now, if the sentence was life in prison or $20,000,000 fine, and you didn't have cent to your name, but another came and paid your penalty for you, you could be set free of the judgment.



Jesus died to pay for our sins, but to say that we do not owe God for them is to say God is corrupt.

 

[Der Alte]

Luk 16:22 (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

If this be a literal story, then it presents another problem in relation to the scriptures. How could Lazarus be in Heaven while our Lord was still here on earth?

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the firstfruit of those who are reposing." (I Cor. 15:20).

Jesus is the the fristfruit, or first to be roused from the dead. Not even David had been roused, no not anyone:

"NO MAN has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven."(John 3:13).

How can it be that while our Lord was here on earth that Lazarus and Abraham are both in heaven, when Jesus plainly says that: "...no man has ascended up to heaven..."?

Or we could just ignore everything that has been posted, addresss nothing, respond to nothing and throw a few verses and arguments at the board.

First God and Jesus exist outside of time. In God's kingdom terms like first and last, before and after, have no meaning.

About judgement. When was the criminal on the cross judged? Jesus told him that he would be with Him, Jesus, in paradise that day. Jesus had not been resurrected that day. And before you give me the old knee jerk response, heaven and paradise are intechangeable terms in the N.T. See how Paul uses them.

 

[Der Alte]

Verily, I am saying to you, More tolerable will it be for the land of Sodom and the land of Gomorrah in that DAY OF JUDGING than for that city." (Matt. 10:15)

Why is the rich man in eternal hellfire, when he has not has his day of judgment? When our Lord was telling this parable the judgment was yet future.

"Men, Ninevites, will be rising in the judging with this generation and will be condemning it..." (Mat. 12:41)

The righteous Nenevites have not been risen, nor the evil men of Sodom and Gomorrah. Why was the rich man in torments before the day of judging?

And what constitutes a sentence to hell? Does not most of christianity declare that it is the rejecting of Christs sacrifice that sends one to hell? It was literaly impossible for the rich man to reject the sacrifce of Christ, for Christ was not yet crucified!

http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html

” Why is the rich man in eternal hellfire,?” Ask Jesus, He was the one telling the story. And if it is a parable then it is still a literal, occurrence, understood by Jesus’ audience. In every other recognized parable, in Jesus’ teachings, He used, real, literal examples from life that His audience understood to illustrate spititual truths. Even the definition of parable, posted earlier, acknowledges that. In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, what is the real, literal, example from life Jesus is using to illustrate what spiritual truth.

That garbage site you posted supposes the story is about the Jews, i.e. the rich man, rejecting God and the gentiles, i.e. Lazarus (Hebrew: Elazar=God is helper), accepting God. Just FYI Elazar is a Jewish name. Where does Jesus give this explanation of this parable, as He explains every other parable, and where does He say why He chose a Hebrew name to represent gentiles?

 

[G4m]

If we go to hell before judgement, we are pre-judged and there is no need for judgement day. Further why would Jesus then resurrect these people (who aren't really dead and don't need resurrection) to tell them they are going back to hell again?

Isaiah 66
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Ecclesiastes 9
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

 

[Der Alte]

It has been stated that the Greek word “hades” simply means the grave, it supposedly never means a place of eternal, everlasting punishment. Here is a passage where Jesus refers to “hell” three times, and He certainly does not mean the grave.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.​

In this passage Jesus repeated a total of eleven (11) warnings. Hell, three times; unquenchable fire, five times; and worm that dies not, three times. Jesus must be saying something very serious to give eleven warnings.

Jesus’ ministry on earth was to seek and save that which was lost, Lk 19:10, not give scientific lectures on worms and fire. Jesus was not a geologist or an entomologist, He was not concerned about worms that did not die, or fire that was never quenched. Jesus was concerned about people. He warned His audience that if any part of their body caused them to sin, to cut it off, for it was better to enter the Kingdom of God maimed than to be cast into hell fire.

Jesus here was not talking about death and the grave because cutting off a hand will not prevent someone from dying and being buried, in the grave. Either Jesus was lying or there is a place that has unquenchable fire. There is a place where the worms of the condemned never die. Note the verses say “their worm” not “the worm.” If the condemned were eventually rescued from hell or annihilated, then the worms would no longer be “their worm.” So Jesus is very clearly talking about a place in which the fire will never be quenched, the condemned remain there forever with worms eating on their flesh and some people are going to be cast into that place.

 

[Michael Mc]

There is no support if people ignore the passages which contradict their presuppositions and assumptions as you are doing. Here are two verses, I posted before, which contradict all the assertions you have been making

Here are two verses from the O.T. which clearly show that “sheol” meant something other than the grave.



When the king of Babylon dies hell “sheol” is moved to meet him, all the dead rise up and speak to him. I have posted these verses before in response to the false conclusions stated above. This passage is not talking about Satan, but about, “the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;,” vs. 16

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee [king of Babylon vs. 4] to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
​

Here is another verse which clearly shows “sheol” to mean something other than the grave. How can beating a child with a rod keep that child from dying and being buried? It is abundantly clear that the O.T. uses the word “sheol” to mean hell, a place of eternal punishment.

Pro 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell, "sheol”
​

These two verses are not completely clear to mean something other than grave. Sheol is a curious word, in that it has been translated to mean three different words. Hell, Grave, and Pit. Now which one is to be it's true meaning? There are 61 other verses in the Old Testament that have the word sheol. The context of these two verses in no way limits the meaning of sheol to eternal torment.

she'o^l

BDB Definition:

1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit

1a) the underworld

1b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead

1b1) place of no return

1b2) without praise of God

1b3) wicked sent there for punishment

1b4) righteous not abandoned to it

1b5) of the place of exile (figuratively)

1b6) of extreme degradation in sin

Your two verse could just as easily and more correctly be translated as grave, which would bring them into harmony with the rest of scripture.

 

[Der Alte]

These two verses are not completely clear to mean something other than grave. Sheol is a curious word, in that it has been translated to mean three different words. Hell, Grave, and Pit. Now which one is to be it's true meaning? There are 61 other verses in the Old Testament that have the word sheol. The context of these two verses in no way limits the meaning of sheol to eternal torment.

Your two verse could just as easily and more correctly be translated as grave, which would bring them into harmony with the rest of scripture.

I realize that any verse which clearly contradicts the presuppositions of Universalism are not “completely clear” to people who believe in such a heresy.

What is the “true” meaning of sheol? There are many Hebrew words that have more than one meaning. The “true” meaning of any such word is determined by context. If “sheol” in Isaiah 14:9-10, means the grave, perhaps you could explain to me how those in their individual scattered graves would rise up to meet the king of Babylon when he descended into “sheol?” Or explain how spanking a child will prevent him from dying and being buried in “sheol”, Prov 23:13? Or perhaps you could explain how cutting off a hand or plucking out an eye will prevent someone from dying and being buried, Mark 9:43-50?

Here are some other sources I quoted before which you seem to have ignored.

The Jewish Encyclopedia – Sheol

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1791572&postcount=20

The Jewish Encyclopedia - Abraham’s Bosom

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1792117&postcount=22

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew lexicon – Sheol

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1791518&postcount=19

And here again is my previous post which you have not adequately addressed

Here are two verses from the O.T. which clearly show that “sheol” meant something other than the grave.

When the king of Babylon dies hell “sheol” is moved to meet him, all the dead rise up and speak to him. I have posted these verses before in response to the false conclusions stated above. This passage is not talking about Satan, but about, “the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;,” vs. 16​

​

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee [king of Babylon vs. 4] to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?​

Here is another verse which clearly shows “sheol” to mean something other than the grave. How can beating a child with a rod keep that child from dying and being buried? It is abundantly clear that the O.T. uses the word “sheol” to mean hell, a place of eternal punishment.

Pro 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell, "sheol”​

 

[G4m]

So does everyone go to hell (sheol) to be tormented when they die? If not, who goes there and why?

 

[Der Alte]

So does everyone go to hell (sheol) to be tormented when they die? If not, who goes there and why?

Who do you think goes to sheol and why? I'm sure you think your question is a "stopper" but there is a discussion in progress, would you care to address anything that has been posted so far?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

 

[G4m]

Who do you think goes to sheol and why?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

Psa 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

 

[Der Alte]

Psa 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Grave, so what? Read some of the references previously posted.

 

[G4m]

Grave, so what? Read some of the references previously posted.

Here is another verse which clearly shows “sheol” to mean something other than the grave. How can beating a child with a rod keep that child from dying and being buried? It is abundantly clear that the O.T. uses the word “sheol” to mean hell, a place of eternal punishment.

Psa 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

 

[josyau]

If we go to hell before judgement, we are pre-judged and there is no need for judgement day. Further why would Jesus then resurrect these people (who aren't really dead and don't need resurrection) to tell them they are going back to hell again?

I agree with this GM4, why would there be a necessary for a future judgment when the conclusion of that judgment has already been issued out? If you're in the supposed "hell" then you already know that you did not make it. If you're are supposedly in heaven you know you already made it.

Someone in the past bought up Deut. 32 as a revealing that "Sheol" was a place of conscious people after death. I would disagree with this, one should realize that it is sometimes helpful to read a passage in the same way the present audience would have received it.

So far in the Torah no one has been taught anything about a place named "Sheol" being where sinners go after death to await judgment. Up to this point (the first five books) people have heard of "Sheol" relating to death, not after death activity. Up until Deut. 32 are there any passages that somehow reveal to the then audience that they should accept "Sheol" as a place of burning in the afterlife for the wicked? Deut. 32 itself cannot alone even be taken to prove such. There's nothing in the passage that says anything about anybody (conscious after death) burning, so we cannot not interject that (from doctrine, current understanding, or bias) back into a text that does not say such.

This passage says that G-d's anger burns to the lowest part of it. Anger is many times related to fire, burning, heat, etc. I know I have many times spoken of anger in such a way. I have felt anger in such away as related to a burning angry sensation. There's a silly show on TV called "Boiling Point" which deals with trying to get people angry. Sometimes people talk about being steamed over an issue.

Dt. 32 must be taken in light with the other passages in the Tanach and how the audience would have received it. I don't see anything in Isaiah 38 to prove a afterlife in "Sheol"

 

[josyau]

I agree with you MichaelMC concerning the issue with the King of Babylon and concerning the child being delivered from Sheol issue. As much as I know people are going to convict me off this and that I will say now that I do indeed take the King of Babylon issue as totally figurative to something that was truly happening. This is light of all other text dealing with "Sheol". I leave off with that.

Concerning the child issue, the question should be what is it about beating the child with the rod that will deliver him from "Sheol". Obviously I think we would all agree that it is rising that child up in the right way so that when they are older that would not depart from it. With that being said, the child would be delivered from "Sheol" because they would have lived a righteous life which in the end would mean being delivered from "Sheol" (Grave) at the resurrection.

Someone earlier brought up Mark 9:43 as well. This is the problem that comes in everything being translated "Hell". The greek word being used in that passage is "Gehenna" and is entirely separate from Sheol/Hades. Sheol/Hades deals with the grave. "Gehenna" is used in comparison to the final judgment.

Gehenna: valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: This place was used as a landfill where trash/waste would be dumped and lit on fire. This fire would go on at all times (as there would always be trash there, not that trash put there a week ago would still exist but because new trash was added daily). The trash would eventually be eradicated eternally.

Where there is trash so is there maggots, worms, and flies. Of course these things would constantly exist in such an area (not the ones burned by the fire of course). As with such a place so will it be at the final judgement after the resurrection of the wicked dead from Sheol/Hades (Grave). As trash/waste (unfortunately do to choosing death over life) they will be tossed out and consumed. Just as the trash in Gehenna they too will consume away (thus an everlasting punishment)

The duration of that punishment is not forever but the effect is. They are eternally lost because there's never any coming back or rectifying of their situation. If one seperates the usage of Hades from Gehenna they would see how "Gehenna" is always used in reference to judgment and how Hades could easily be used in reference to the grave.

In Revelation "Hades" is thrown into the Lake of Fire (the equivalent to Gehenna). Now I don't believe this is speaking of "hell" being tossed into another placed called the Lake of Fire which seems to be the same type of place (a place of burning).

I look at this as being the Grave/Death being tossed into the Lake of Fire (symbolic of total eradication) thus being forever eliminated.

Rev. 20:13-14
13. And the sea gave up the dead [first location giving up it's dead, an actually physical location on the earth not filled with conscious people but dead people] that were in it; and death and Hades [the Grave, second location] gave up the dead [not conscious people] that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and Hades (Grave, death & the grave go hand in hand in life) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.

After being resurrected from these places and judged they then join death and the grave in being totally eliminated. Thus the conclusion: No more dying thus no more graves.

 

[Michael Mc]

Here are some other sources I quoted before which you seem to have ignored.

The Jewish Encyclopedia – Sheol

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1791572&postcount=20

The Jewish Encyclopedia - Abraham’s Bosom

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1792117&postcount=22

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew lexicon – Sheol

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1791518&postcount=19

After reading your links I was not able to locate where it said that sheol was where people burned.

First God and Jesus exist outside of time. In God's kingdom terms like first and last, before and after, have no meaning.

Let me understand, God used words and sayings that have no meaning, and Jesus twice spoke of things that were not true. When He said "NO MAN has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven." He was just saying that for the sake of saying it?
Jesus goes on to tell the theif on the cross that the theif and Jesus will be in paradise that day together. On a day that Jesus had not been resurrected.

About judgement. When was the criminal on the cross judged? Jesus told him that he would be with Him, Jesus, in paradise that day. Jesus had not been resurrected that day.

If I am to understand you further, each man's judgement is here on earth, the here and now is where we are judged, each of us.

Then I don't understand what Jesus meant here "Men, Ninevites, will be rising in the judging with this generation and will be condemning it..." (Mat. 12:41)
or here...
"Verily, I am saying to you, More tolerable will it be for the land of Sodom and the land of Gomorrah in that DAY OF JUDGING than for that city." (Matt. 10:15)

Explain this day of judging then if it is in the here and now?