What have you understood about the charcater of The Ten Commandments?? (2)

[Sophrosyne]

Well of course it was. Do not is clearly a command, even with a penalty for disobedience attached to it, that being death.

You just said it wasn't a LAW. It obviously was a command with a penalty attached aka A LAW.

The LAW is a command and it has PENALTIES for violation, that being death.

I don't consider commands by default laws, Do you consider Moses telling those people for years that about a law that says you have to board the ark? How about a law that says you have to leave Sodom and Gommorah? For every time God commands something and then punishes those who don't do as he commands a law then you have tons of laws in the Bible.

Every believer who 'obeys' the law does so as a sinner. And every believer who dodges the law does so as a sinner.

Irrelevant, all you are doing is defeating your own argument in that the law is meaningless when it comes to sin so why bother with it at all?

However you arrive at a truthful conclusion really doesn't matter nor does the 'volume of evidence rule' apply. A single violation in thought is sufficient to prove us all sinners.

No, it does matter because if one desires to sin less which is what Christians are to aspire to then one must violate the rules that define sin less and this requires proper definition of sin, sin that the Law doesn't define Christians as sinners competently.

I've pointed this out to SDAist's many times. That merely thinking about not wanting to do the Sabbath, even while DOING SO is still a sin. And I would be quite surprised if every last one of them were not committing that sin internally, as that is what sin does. It RESISTS the law and causes SIN.

There is no way to make indwelling sin NOT sin. Law merely exacerbates indwelling sin to do what it does.

In other words the Law is useless therefore using it to define sin is basically worthless for Christians. Christians in the spirit are not focusing on sin we know we sin and fall short, we know we need to sin less but by what standard do we apply this to? Grace.

->You seem to recognize this principle from time to time.

No mans indwelling sin/evil present is under grace either. Every last one of you on both sides of the aisle admit sinning and also that sin is not under Grace, i.e. OKEY DOKEY. It's NOT OKEY DOKEY under Grace either.

IN the final analysis there is no excuse for sin available on either side of the aisle and it is foolish to try to make that happen anyway.
Believers under grace are still sinners. Believers trying to be legally obedient are still sinners.

Embrace your factual commonality and you'll all stop arguing about it because the equation of being a factual sinner isn't going to change for either side of this debate.

Whether sin is proven by law or not is irrelevant to the final conclusion. There is no falling apart for the only HONEST conclusion available.

s

All this endless diatribe here only proves one thing... we all need a savior. You do nothing to either prove or disprove the Law or Grace upon Christians but argue against both or for both and this is double mindedness at its pinnacle to me.

 

[Sophrosyne]

In this case we reject God or accept Him as we reject or accept His Ten Commandments.

No. One cannot reject a "gift" (or what was given to Israel) if one is not the recipient of such "gift" (the Mosaic Law).
God never showed up at Jesus time with more stone tablets with more commandments and gave them to Gentiles. God never said non Jews were to NOT be made Jews AND keep the Law. There is three facts here:
1)God gave the Law to Jews
2)God didn't give the Law to non Jews
3)Only Jews were to keep the Law

Being a Christian doesn't make you a Jew (of Israel).

 

[squint]

All this endless diatribe here only proves one thing... we all need a savior.

Never said otherwise.

You do nothing to either prove or disprove the Law or Grace upon Christians but argue against both or for both

I've put the chips on the table. It's only obvious to both sides that they don't like the conclusions.

and this is double mindedness at its pinnacle to me.

Spinning up phony unicorns is not conducive to constructive dialog.

No man here is going to justify sin on either side of the ledgers and it is a fools game to even go there.

s

 

[Sophrosyne]

Never said otherwise.



I've put the chips on the table. It's only obvious to both sides that they don't like the conclusions.



Spinning up phony unicorns is not conducive to constructive dialog.

No man here is going to justify sin on either side of the ledgers and it is a fools game to even go there.

s

I've never justified sin, and you refuse to allow people to truly define what sin it.... instead of defining sin and condemning it you condemn people and call them sinners something that Christianity isn't really about especially when you condemn Christians. Jesus said to the adulterer neither do I condemn thee.... go and sin no more.
Jesus encourage less sin, and didn't condemn people who sinned while that is all you do here.

 

[VictorC]

The Sabbath is the test. The tree in the mist of the Garden. That person have to decide on.

You see all of us profess a love for God but do we really love Him is the question. So the test can not be our professing of love but in obedience. There is no questioning of God's Ten Commandments except for the Sabbath.

Of course this purported test was found to be nothing more than Ellen's fiction in the last thread, so it is a dead issue.

 

[VictorC]

In this case we reject God or accept Him as we reject or accept His Ten Commandments.

It was from the last thread's inception that you rejected the Ten Commandments, by re-defining it as 'principles' foreign to Scripture. This false dichotomy you created forces the conclusion that you have rejected God.
Self-condemnation is the fruit of a logical fallacy.

 

[VictorC]

By deleting the extraneous verbiage, one post can explain why the Biblically literate don't take the seventh-day Adventist church seriously. Their members tend to play a numbers game siding with poll responses made in error, postulating a Investigative Judgment scenario that permeates their whole theology, denial of God's redemption in Jesus Christ, and for these reasons the Gospel remains a mystery to them.

Why don't you construct the correct poll?

Thanks for validating my summary. Christians who place their faith in God's Word don't look to popular opinion to confirm or correct their understanding. That's an Adventist trait, employed to validate Ellen.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I find polls relating to theological issues worthless as one can just watch the opinions of the participants of a thread to already know the answer which only reflects the amount of people that believe one way or another that frequent the theology areas. It is like going into a bowling alley and asking the people there who likes bowling and expecting a 50/50 outcome.

 

[from scratch]

I find polls relating to theological issues worthless as one can just watch the opinions of the participants of a thread to already know the answer which only reflects the amount of people that believe one way or another that frequent the theology areas. It is like going into a bowling alley and asking the people there who likes bowling and expecting a 50/50 outcome.

Besides the results can be stacked in a number of ways.

 

[GenemZ]

There is zero sense resisting the conclusions of Law. The only thing you are really rejecting is their feigned compliance, but I doubt that you have issues with the Law proving mankind (inclusive of christians) as sinners?

Those who resist that conclusion of law, that people are sinners, aren't going to change the conclusion by casting away the law.

It is meant to be held up FOR that conclusion.

How is that glorifying Christ? How is it in any manner, shape, or form.. Good News? Your view of salvation is morbidity.

If we acknowledge/cite/admit/confess (homologeo) our sins,
He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and purifies
us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


​

You obviously wish to be a stumbling block to those who will come to know and appreciate the Blood of Christ.

As a believer matures in knowing his position in Christ sin is to become a near non-issue. That is, as long as he has no desire to return to his old way of life.

Your preoccupation with the law and sin borders on sounding like you are employed by the Devil. For, he hates the truth that Christians are readily and easily forgiven when they sin.. which is the case when they follow 1 John 1:9.

Such faith for the believer in God's forgiveness makes the devil's haranguing the believer after they sin of no effect. Sounds like he sent you in to try to remedy that for him... A lot. As if there are plans to torture Christians in the future, and they need now to train interrogators for the job. You filled out the application, I see.

 

[Elder 111]

No. One cannot reject a "gift" (or what was given to Israel) if one is not the recipient of such "gift" (the Mosaic Law).
God never showed up at Jesus time with more stone tablets with more commandments and gave them to Gentiles. God never said non Jews were to NOT be made Jews AND keep the Law. There is three facts here:
1)God gave the Law to Jews
2)God didn't give the Law to non Jews
3)Only Jews were to keep the Law

Being a Christian doesn't make you a Jew (of Israel).

Being christian mean being like Christ/follower of Christ. How can we be like Christ if we do not keep the Commandments as He did?

 

[Elder 111]

It was from the last thread's inception that you rejected the Ten Commandments, by re-defining it as 'principles' foreign to Scripture. This false dichotomy you created forces the conclusion that you have rejected God.
Self-condemnation is the fruit of a logical fallacy.

You don't even know what you believe.

1. Firstly you want us to believe that the Ten Commandments has no jurisdiction over us as Christians, then you are saying that I reject God by rejecting the same Ten commandments. You don't even have a logical argument far less a biblical leg to stand on.
2. Secondly, there is self condemnation but not on my part. Is the Ten Commandments valid or not? If not it does not matter what I reduce them to if there are not valid, but you know that there are valid: that is why you object any implication of a belittling on God holy law. In that respect you have my support.

 

[VictorC]

You don't even know what you believe.

1. Firstly you want us to believe that the Ten Commandments has no jurisdiction over us as Christians, then you are saying that I reject God by rejecting the same Ten commandments. You don't even have a logical argument far less a biblical leg to stand on.
2. Secondly, there is self condemnation but not on my part. Is the Ten Commandments valid or not? If not it does not matter what I reduce them to if there are not valid, but you know that there are valid: that is why you object any implication of a belittling on God holy law. In that respect you have my support.

Note the portion of your post that I bolded. You have already seen what Scripture actually says, and you can see that I agree with Scripture. That is the final arbiter of doctrine that I appeal to, and that is what I believe.
Nowhere do you address the dichotomy that you created. I believe that you don't have the ability to see that you re-defined the old covenant into something far less than Holy, and this is what you're calling holy in the Law's stead. You won't answer Moses, you've denied God's redemption that Christianity affirms, and you've already lost your theological shirt on the previous thread of this title.

 

[from scratch]

You don't even know what you believe.

1. Firstly you want us to believe that the Ten Commandments has no jurisdiction over us as Christians, then you are saying that I reject God by rejecting the same Ten commandments. You don't even have a logical argument far less a biblical leg to stand on.
2. Secondly, there is self condemnation but not on my part. Is the Ten Commandments valid or not? If not it does not matter what I reduce them to if there are not valid, but you know that there are valid: that is why you object any implication of a belittling on God holy law. In that respect you have my support.

Not even close to why you're at odds with a few of us and most of Christianity, especially orthodox christianity.

 

[squint]

Being christian mean being like Christ/follower of Christ. How can we be like Christ if we do not keep the Commandments as He did?

The Law proves beyond any doubt you are a sinner.

Why is it you don't believe that conclusion?

???

 

[Sophrosyne]

Being christian mean being like Christ/follower of Christ. How can we be like Christ if we do not keep the Commandments as He did?

How can we be like Christ if we get married and are not born of a virgin and are not God incarnated into man and don't have a 3 year ministry to Israel and don't do miracles healing the sick and raising the dead and don't sacrifice animals and wear proper Jewish clothing and... and... and...
I'm sorry but Jesus was a Jew and I don't think you are being a Jew therefore being like Christ isn't what the Bible says. Paul says to follow him as HE follows Jesus (be like Paul) are you being like Paul? Paul says to cast off the Law yet you promoted it. Peter said at the council of Jerusalem the Law was a yoke that gentiles shouldn't have to bear are you listening to Peter? NO. And by example you only follow what you want of Jesus doings otherwise you would strive to move to Israel when you are about 30 and begin your ministry and await death by crucifixion via Rome.
I'm sorry but we are NOT to be EXACTLY like Jesus and we are not told to become Jewish in the Bible anywhere that I have in the New Testament. You need to very very seriously read over and over where Paul talks about circumcision and think very hard about why Paul makes a huge deal about it instead of trivializing it and skipping past it.

 

[squint]

Not even close to why you're at odds with a few of us and most of Christianity, especially orthodox christianity.

Your claims would not even be in the ballpark with orthodox determinations about the law or Gods Words.

Their is no practice of orthodoxy of tossing aside the Words of Jesus Christ that I'm aware of.

 

[Elder 111]

The Law proves beyond any doubt you are a sinner.

Why is it you don't believe that conclusion?

???

So? What do you expect. Romans 3: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 

[Elder 111]

How can we be like Christ if we get married and are not born of a virgin and are not God incarnated into man and don't have a 3 year ministry to Israel and don't do miracles healing the sick and raising the dead and don't sacrifice animals and wear proper Jewish clothing and... and... and...
I'm sorry but Jesus was a Jew and I don't think you are being a Jew therefore being like Christ isn't what the Bible says. Paul says to follow him as HE follows Jesus (be like Paul) are you being like Paul? Paul says to cast off the Law yet you promoted it. Peter said at the council of Jerusalem the Law was a yoke that gentiles shouldn't have to bear are you listening to Peter? NO. And by example you only follow what you want of Jesus doings otherwise you would strive to move to Israel when you are about 30 and begin your ministry and await death by crucifixion via Rome.
I'm sorry but we are NOT to be EXACTLY like Jesus and we are not told to become Jewish in the Bible anywhere that I have in the New Testament. You need to very very seriously read over and over where Paul talks about circumcision and think very hard about why Paul makes a huge deal about it instead of trivializing it and skipping past it.

You know nothing of what you speak. Sorry you have not matured in the matters of God, not with this. This is some of the worst I have seen, hope others can enlighten you.

 

[Elder 111]

Anyone here every looked at Revelation 12 seriously? Why is Satan angry with God's church? 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Clearly satan is against God's people because they keep His Ten Commandments. Where does that put those who negates them?