what happens when we die??

[crunchie]

ooo i long for paradise!

 

[Cliff2]

As christ said the the thief on the cross, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise". He never said anything about "sleep". I have always thought the verses stated above were said because christ had not died yet, therefore souls that had died before him were "asleep" if you will.

Where did Jesus go when He died?

Was the thief with Him at that time?

 

[drmmjr]

Kingdom_Come,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on your post.

Hi drmmjr,

When God speaks of dying or death it is not always referring to a bodily death, or necessarily the cessation of existence. Let’s look at some examples.

For your example, you posted Ezekiel 18:4 and then made the following comment:

Now a lot of people that believe that the dead have ceased to exist use this Scripture to make their case. This Scripture seems to indicate that a soul can die and does die. Therefore it cannot continue to exist in some fashion after death. First of all let us look at the Hebrew word that is used in this Scripture and translated as “die”. It is “mûth” and it can mean die and it can also mean destroy. Now the time of the destruction of the unrighteous is when they are cast into Gehenna (The lake of fire). Gehenna is referred to as the “second death”. (Rev 20:14) “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” If we take this literally, the way many take die or death literally when The Lord speaks of it, then one might conclude they cease to exist once they are cast into Gehenna. Yet we read in Scripture that this “second death” is not a cessation of existence as one might think of death. It is a place of confinement and punishment for those who have chosen to live against the will of God. Hence what we read in Scripture about Gehenna and those in Gehenna.

First off, the "soul that sinneth, it shall die" is speaking of the person. As I mentioned in the post that you were responding to, "Where in scripture do you find that the soul is eternal/immortal".

In your statement, you said that this scripture (Ezek. 18:4) seems to indicate that a soul can die and does die. That is true. A soul (person) can and does die. Perhaps instead of looking at what the word "die" means, you should have looked at what the word "soul" meant.

These Scriptures certainly do not speak of death as many normally think of death. They do not indicate that these people will cease to exist but rather that they will continually exist in this state of torment because they have rejected God and His perfect will. They have chosen the path of rebellion, to be murderers, idolaters, sorcerers and unbelievers. (Rev 21:8) “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” They have not repented nor turned from their wicked ways and so they have chosen their path and their destination. Jesus even speaks of a man never seeing death.

The scriptures mentioned speak of the "second death". The "first death" is one that we all are subject to. It is the death that we will be resurrected from. The "second death" is the death with no chance of coming back from. It is a death where those who have a part in, will cease to exist and never return from. You have mentioned that the "second death"

is not a cessation of existence as one might think of death. It is a place of confinement and punishment for those who have chosen to live against the will of God.

If there is not a cessation of existence in this second death, then those who are there would have some form of eternal/immortal life. But we know that the only way to receive immortal/eternal life is through Jesus. We currently don't have it, or else we wouldn't need to receive it from Jesus.

What “death” is Jesus speaking of here? The Jews, like many people, interpreted this as the physical death of the body. Yet even Jesus died and obviously righteous men have died all throughout history.

The death that Jesus is speaking of here is the "second death" that we have been discussing. If we keep the sayings (beliefs) of Jesus, then we won't see the second death. We will have received eternal life because we believed in Jesus.

With your comments on Revelation 20:6, you said:

Jesus is speaking of the “second death”. The Jews did not understand this. Those that are heirs of the promise of God will not be in danger of Gehenna, they will never see death (the second death). So when God says in Ezekiel that the “soul that sinneth, it shall die”, what death is He speaking of? Further in Ezekiel God also says this.

Right, those who are heirs of the promise of God will not see the second death.

In Exekiel, God is speaking of the first death. The death that Adam brought into the world. In Eze 18:9, God is speaking about those who do the will of God, and how they will live. And what kind of life will they have? They will have eternal/immortal life. As I see you can agree with:

God is speaking about the righteous man. Yet no one interprets this to mean that a righteous man shall not die. It is because it is understood that God is speaking of His promise of the resurrection and eternal life. Sure that righteous man will still die a physical death. However, he shall live forever when God resurrects His people unto eternal life. This is all part of the same message. In this same manner God is not speaking of the physical death of the soul but of its destruction when it is cast into Gehenna. He is speaking of the “second death”. This is why Jesus distinguishes between the killing of the body, and the destruction of both the body and soul in Gehenna.

So you also agree that the "second death" will result in the detruction of those who don't do the will of God. When something is destroyed, it is no longer there as it was. It is reduced down to nothing, well, at least nothing that we can see. Oh, there may be some ashes, or bits and pieces here and there, but it is no longer recognized as what is once was.

In other words the killing of the body is not the killing of the soul! If it were then a murderer is able to kill your soul when he kills your body and that would make Jesus a liar. Jesus says that we should not fear them that can kill the body. Why? Because they are not able to kill the soul. There is only one that can destroy both body and soul and that happens when the body and soul are cast into Gehenna, the lake of fire or the eternal hell.

You are correct in that we shouldn't fear those who can kill us now. We had best fear the one who can kill and utterly destroy us at the Judgement.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Hi drmmjr,



Just wanted to take a moment and reply to your last posting.

First off, the "soul that sinneth, it shall die" is speaking of the person. As I mentioned in the post that you were responding to, "Where in scripture do you find that the soul is eternal/immortal".

In your statement, you said that this scripture (Ezek. 18:4) seems to indicate that a soul can die and does die. That is true. A soul (person) can and does die. Perhaps instead of looking at what the word "die" means, you should have looked at what the word "soul" meant.

Did you read the rest of my post and the Scriptures I posted with it? Isaiah and John both tell us that those that are sent to the “second death” do not actually “die” in the sense that many think of death, in other words they do not cease to exist but rather the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and they do not rest day or night. This doesn’t seem to be describing oblivion. Again I ask if death is oblivion, and is the same nothingness for all, then why were Jesus and the apostles so careful about the words they chose to describe what we have generally adopted in the English language as hell. As far as looking at the meaning of words, should we ignore the true meaning of what was written in favor of what we would like it to say? Go back and read Isaiah 66:24 and Revelation 14:10-11. This is the description of Gehenna, the second death.

The scriptures mentioned speak of the "second death". The "first death" is one that we all are subject to. It is the death that we will be resurrected from. The "second death" is the death with no chance of coming back from. It is a death where those who have a part in, will cease to exist and never return from.



………If there is not a cessation of existence in this second death, then those who are there would have some form of eternal/immortal life. But we know that the only way to receive immortal/eternal life is through Jesus. We currently don't have it, or else we wouldn't need to receive it from Jesus.

Again I refer you to the Scriptures I previously posted. They describe this second death and what they do not describe is the cessation of existence that we, from a human perspective, tend to associate with death. We are never told that the lost will be sentenced to oblivion. This would not be torment as oblivion is neither torment nor paradise. I think the misunderstanding comes from our human understanding of death. Death is separation from the body. Death is a confinement. The second death will be a confinement to the lake of fire.

In Exekiel, God is speaking of the first death. The death that Adam brought into the world.



……So you also agree that the "second death" will result in the detruction of those who don't do the will of God. When something is destroyed, it is no longer there as it was. It is reduced down to nothing, well, at least nothing that we can see. Oh, there may be some ashes, or bits and pieces here and there, but it is no longer recognized as what is once was.

All men (with few exceptions) die, the righteous and the unrighteous. Even babies who have had no chance to develop a conscience die. God explicitly says that the soul that sins will die. Taken in context and contrasted against the part of the message where God is clearly talking about the resurrection of the righteous, one can see the meaning here as the fate of the unrighteous. It is not logical to be speaking about the physical death of the unrighteous as punishment for sin but be speaking of a future resurrection of the righteous as a reward for righteousness. Looking at it that way even the righteous are being punished the same as the unrighteous yet God says this is NOT what will happen. This is why we must look at the meaning of the word translated as “die”. It helps in understanding the message God is revealing to His people here. Obviously if we can conclude that He is speaking of the resurrection to eternal life as a reward for the righteous then it is only logical that the death he is speaking of for the unrighteous is their eternal punishment in Gehenna, the death He is speaking of is the second death. The soul that sins will see the second death (it will be cast into Gehenna), however the righteous shall not die but shall live (in other words they will never be in danger of the second death).

You are correct in that we shouldn't fear those who can kill us now. We had best fear the one who can kill and utterly destroy us at the Judgement.

Was Jesus speaking the truth or not? He said that we should not fear those who can kill the body because they CANNOT kill the soul. We should fear the one who can destroy both the body and soul in Gehenna (the eternal hell). Now if it is true that the soul dies when the body dies then it IS possible for one who kills the body to kill the soul. This would mean that what Jesus said could not be true since He said they cannot kill the soul. How is this reconciled? If physical death is also the death of the soul then these murderers have the same power that God has because they can kill the soul when they kill the body just as God can destroy the soul as well as the body. Yet Jesus tells us this is not so. So was Jesus speaking the truth or not?

 

[Cliff2]

Where did Jesus go when He died?

Was the thief with Him at that time?

Still waiting for an answer.

 

[deu58]

Hi kingdom come

This would not be torment as oblivion is neither torment nor paradise. I think the misunderstanding comes from our human understanding of death. Death is separation from the body. Death is a confinement. The second death will be a confinement to the lake of fire.

Nice post but I think I would say that the first death is separation from the body ands the second death is separation from God.

Although a lost sinner is still separated from God in this life he/she can still be reconciled to God and receive life. But in the second death the separation from God is complete, There is no chance for redemption,

yours in Christ
deu58

 

[deu58]

Hi all

Awhile back I was on another thread here dealing with the issue of soul sleep and a guy who goes by the name of brother brown posted this study, It is long but informative,


Part 1
We human beings find it very easy to live life as if we will be here forever. We occasionally come face to face with death when a friend or loved one passes away. But the essence of daily living is such that it is easy to ignore the reality of death and the certainty of existence beyond the grave. Let's go to the Bible and find out what will happen to each one of us--one second after death.

The Bible teaches us human beings are composite creatures. We possess a fleshly body that is composed of physical elements made from "the dust of the ground" (Genesis 2:7). This physical body is animated by a life force or life principle which we share in common with the animal kingdom, although a distinction seems to be made in the Genesis creation account between animals and man in the direct source of this life principle (Genesis 1:20,21,24; 2:7). In any case the scriptures also teach that we human beings are unlike the animals around us in that we also possess a spiritual dimension that transcends the body and physical life on earth.

God places within each pre-natal person, no doubt at conception, a spirit that makes each individual a unique person and personality. Zechariah 12:1 says that God "forms the spirit of man within him." Our spirits are what make each one of us a distinct entity, a person that will survive physical death and live on immortally throughout eternity.

A variety of Hebrew and Greek words are used in the Bible to identify various facets of our beings (e.g., "nephesh," "ruach," "neshamah," "leb," and "basar" in the Old Testament and "psyche," "pneuma," "nous," "soma," and "sarx" in the New Testament). These words are somewhat fluid and are used in a variety of ways--sometimes inter-changeably, sometimes in contradistinction to each other. They are translated by many different English words (e.g., "soul," "spirit," "breath," "wind," "heart," "mind," "self," "body," "flesh," etc.). It is a mistake to latch on to a passage where "soul" refers to the entirety of a person's being and conclude that man does not possess a spirit that is distinct from his animated body. Liberal theology tends to limit the Hebrew word "ruach" (soul or spirit) to an impersonal vital power that becomes individualized only in the "nephesh" (whole person). Thus it is claimed that the soul or spirit cannot exist independently of the body, that when the "life force" exits the body, the person ceases to exist.

But if we will stay away from human philosophies and just study our Bibles we will see that each person possesses a conscious spirit that ultimately leaves the body and exists separately from it in the spirit realm. Notice Genesis 35:18--"and it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died)..." And 1 Kings 17:21-22--Elijah prayed, "Let this child's soul come into him again...and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived." Psalm 86:13--"thou hast delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol."

The Bible defines "death" as "separation"--not "extinction." Physical death occurs when the spirit exits the body. James 2:26 says, "for as the body without the spirit is dead..." In other words the separation of one's spirit from one's body results in physical death.

Spiritual death, on the other hand, entails separation from God due to sin. So again, "death" involves the idea of "separation"--not "extinction" or unconsciousness.

A clear depiction of existence beyond death is seen in Luke 16:19-31. Some argue that this section of scripture is a parable, which is debatable since the story does not contain the usual indicators of parabolic discourse. However, even if it is, a parable is not a fairy tale. Bible parables parallel true-life situations to teach a basic lesson of truth. They draw from reality and that which people understand as genuine existence and actual conditions in order to drive home a spiritual point. (Read Luke 16:19-31). Notice the following indicators in this narrative:

(1) Both men are said to have died

(2) Wherever azarus went, angels were used to transport him there

(3) The rich man was buried

(4) The rich man was in hades

(5) The rich man was being tormented in flames

(6) The rich man could see and recognize Lazarus and Abraham

(7) Abraham referred to the rich man's former existence as "thy lifetime"

(8) Abraham made clear that their respective locations were irreversible

(9) The rich man's brothers were still occupying his father's house on earth

(10) The Law of Moses was still in effect

(11) The rich man's plea to send Lazarus to his living relatives would require Lazarus to return "from the dead" (vs. 30) and "rise from the dead" (vs. 31)

The term translated "hell" in Luke 16:23 is the Greek word "hades" and is not to be confused with the word "gehenna." "Gehenna" is found 12 times in the New Testament and refers to the place of eternal, everlasting punishment, the "lake of fire" where Satan, his angels, and all wicked people will be consigned after the second coming of Jesus and the Judgment. So "gehenna" is Hell. "Hades" on the other hand occurs 10 times in the New Testament and always refers to the unseen realm of the dead, the receptacle of disembodied spirits, the place where all people who die await the Lord's return at which time our spirits will be reunited with our resurrection bodies (1 Corinthians 15:35-54).

Luke 16 shows us that Hades contains two regions. One is referred to as the "bosom of Abraham" (which simply means "near" or "in the presence of" Abraham--cf., John 1:18). The other region in Hades is described as tormenting flame. Every other passage in the

New Testament that refers to Hades harmonizes with this description of the intermediate realm of the dead where the deceased await the resurrection and judgment.

For example, while fastened to the cross, Jesus told the thief, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). The word "paradise" is of Persian derivation and means a "garden" or "park." Where was it that Jesus and the thief went on that very day? Certainly not to extinction! Extinction would not be "paradise"! They did not go to the grave together. The thief was not placed in the tomb with Jesus and the tomb would certainly not be a "paradise." Nor did Jesus go to Heaven, for in John 20:17 after His resurrection, Jesus reassured Mary that He had not yet ascended to the Father. So where is "paradise"? Where did Jesus and the thief go after dying on the cross? Where had Jesus been for those three days between His death and resurrection?

Peter gives us the answer to that question in his sermon in Acts 2 when he quoted Psalm 16. Acts 2:27 says God would not abandon Christ's soul in Hades nor allow Christ to undergo decay. So while Christ's body was placed in a tomb for 3 days, Christ's spirit went to Hades. Peter argued that David, who penned the 16th Psalm, was not referring to himself. How do we know? Because David's body was still in the tomb (Acts 2:29). David's spirit was still in the Hadean realm because Peter also said that David had not yet ascended into Heaven (Acts 2:34). Acts 2 alone proves that a person does not go straight to Heaven or Hell when he dies and that a person does not become extinct, cease to exist, or pass into a state of unconsciousness at death.

Jesus previously predicted that His death and entrance into the Hadean realm would not prevent Him from accomplishing His divine purposes. Listen to Matthew 16:18--"...upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." In other words, though He would die on the cross, though His body would be placed in the tomb, and though His spirit would descend into Hades, nevertheless, the gates of Hades would not prevent Him from coming back out of Hades to be resurrected and then set up the kingdom a few days later in Acts 2 when Peter and the apostles employed the "keys of the kingdom" (Matthew 16:19) with the help of the Holy Spirit sent by Jesus (Acts 2:33).

It was through Jesus' death and subsequent departure from Hades that Jesus rendered powerless him who had the power of death--the Devil (Hebrews 2:14; cf., 1 Corinthians 15:26, 54-57). Jesus' personal victory over death and the Hadean realm explains why He would declare in Revelation 1:18--"I am the living One; I was dead, but behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

 

[deu58]

part 2

While Jesus and the thief and Lazarus went to the paradise portion of Hades, the rich man went to the unpleasant area which included torment and flame. This is the same region of Hades referred to in 2 Peter 2:4 where angels who sinned were committed by God. The term which Peter used is "tartarosas" or Tartarus and is described as "pits of darkness" where they are "reserved for judgment." The parallel in Jude 6 speaks of these angels as having abandoned their proper place and having failed to keep their own domain. They are depicted as existing in "everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." This region of the Hadean realm must also be in view in Moses' allusion to the anger of God which kindles fire that burns to the lowest part of Sheol--"Sheol" being a general Hebrew equivalent of the Greek "Hades" (Deut. 32:22).

Notice what will happen to this intermediate receptacle of spirits. In Revelation 20, beginning in verse 11, we are presented with a portrait of the final judgment before the great white throne of God. Everyone who has ever lived will be there. Verse 13 says that "death and Hades" will be cast into the lake of fire. You see, Hades will be cast into Hell. The unseen realm of the dead where conscious spirits reside until judgment will have served its purpose and all people who have ever lived will then be consigned to one of two places: Heaven or Hell.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that everyone may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" (2 Corinthians 5:10). "And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this judgment" (Hebrews 9:27). "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves, shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29). "...The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power" (2 Thess. 1:7-9).

Let's talk for just a moment about the word "everlasting." Does the human spirit exist beyond physical death and the grave in a conscious state? Or at death, does the soul cease to exist in a state of "soul sleep"? Does a person's consciousness go extinct? Is the soul annihilated at death? The Sadducees denied the existence of the spirit realm. According to Acts 23:8, they denied the immortality of the soul, believing in "neither angel nor spirit." Josephus tells us that the Sadducees believed that "souls die with the bodies" (Antiquities, XVIII, i, 4). There are religious groups in our day who teach the same thing.

In Luke 20, Jesus showed the fallacy of such thinking by showing that when Moses was at the burning bush in Exodus 3, God declared Himself to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. At the time God made that statement, the bodies of those three patriarchs had been in the grave for hundreds of years. Yet Jesus concluded: "For He is not the God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him" (Luke 20:38). That proves that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob though separated from their physical bodies--were still in existence. They were not extinct. They would one day be reunited with their bodies in the resurrection.

Many other passages indicate the perpetuation of conscious spiritual life beyond physical death. Revelation 6:9-11 speaks of the souls of those who had been martyred for the Christian cause. They are spirits--not bodies--who are conscious and aware of the means by which they were killed and knew that their blood had not yet been avenged.


​

In 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, Paul describes an experience that he or someone he knew had in the "third heaven." The "third heaven" in scriptural thought is the spirit realm where God and other celestial beings reside. The "first heaven" is the earth's atmosphere, what we call the "sky" where the birds fly. The "second heaven" we call "outer space" where the sun, moon, and stars are situated. Notice that twice (vs. 2-3) Paul states that he was not certain whether the person described was "in the body, or out of the body." That proves that Paul acknowledged the possibility of the spirit of human beings existing in a conscious state apart from the body. To say that the spirit ceases to exist at death makes Paul imply what is not true.

We've already noticed the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 and the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43. Both of these instances also prove that conscious existence continues after the death of the body. So does Hebrews 12:23 which speak of "the spirits of just men made perfect"--a reference to deceased saints who remained faithful to God during their life on earth, but who had since passed into the spirit realm. That passage makes no sense if "spirits" refers to the wind or breath of a person. These people were like Stephen in Acts 7:59 who, as life was being stoned from his body, said to the Lord whom he could see in the heavens: "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." If "spirit" is simply the life force of the body that goes extinct the moment it no longer animates the body, then Stephen was speaking out of ignorance to think that he had a spirit that could be received by Jesus.

The Bible frequently speaks of the ultimate state of both the good and the wicked as being "eternal." For example, read and study Hebrews 6:2 which speaks of "eternal judgment," or 2 Thessalonians 1:9 which speaks of "eternal destruction," or Revelation 20:10 where Satan will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone and tormented there "day and night forever and ever." Jude 7 speaks of those who will suffer "the vengeance (punishment) of eternal fire."

Matthew 18:8-9 identifies the fire of hell (Gehenna) as "everlasting fire." The parallel passage in Mark 9:43 states that this fire "never shall be quenched." Mark 9:48 says that Hell is a place "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." The image is taken from Isaiah 66:24 and is unquestionably intended to make the point that the fire of Hell will be unquenchable--always burning without con-summing.

In his description of the final Judgment in Matthew 25:46, Jesus uses the same word "aionion" (eternal) to refer to the respective conditions of both the good and evil people who inhabited the earth. If eternal punishment is not "eternal," then life eternal is not "eternal" either. The word "punishment" clearly means pain that is inflicted. Listen to 2 Peter 2:9--"The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the Day of Judgment." The same word is used to refer to the punishment that the apostles narrowly avoided in Acts 4:21.

Some say the word "destroy" and "destruction" means "annihilation" and "extinction." They go to a passage like Matthew 10:28 where Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." They insist that "destroy" in this passage means "annihilation."

But that cannot be. For if physical death inflicted by one's fellowman brings extinction and unconsciousness of the soul, what is there to fear from God? Why would Jesus say there is no need to fear other people who can take your physical life? For in taking your physical life they would also cause your soul to be annihilated, in which case they have the same power that God has and the comparison which Jesus makes is no comparison at all. If the soul dies with the body, then he who kills the body kills the soul too.

The parallel passage in Luke 12:4-5 makes this point even clearer. Luke words it--"Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do...Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell." If physical death brings annihilation of the soul, then it is ridiculous to speak of "casting into Hell" AFTER killing the body.

In addition, the Greek term which underlies our English word "destroy" does not mean "annihilation." W.E. Vines in his Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words states: "The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being." He cites Matthew 10:28 as an example as well as John 17:12 where Judas, who had not yet hung himself, was called the "son of perdition." Obviously, Judas was not extinct or annihilated. But he was destroyed in the sense that he lost spiritual well-being. He had perished spiritually.

Joseph H. Thayer agrees with this assessment in his A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament when he says that "destroy" in Matthew 10:28 means "to devote or give over to eternal misery." Albrecht Oepke in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. 1, comments on the meaning of "destroy:" "definitive destruction, not merely in the sense of extinction of physical existence, but rather of an eternal plunge into Hades."

What must we conclude from the passages of scripture we've examined? If we take God's word seriously, we must conclude that God gives us this life on earth to prepare our spirits for our eternal abode. When we die our bodies go into the grave, while our conscious spirits enter the Hadean realm where we await the final judgment. At the second coming of Christ, we will come forth from Hades and be resurrected in immortal bodies. We will then face God in judgment and receive the pronouncement of our eternal sentence and then be consigned to Heaven or Hell for eternity. Listen closely to the inspired words of the apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3: "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy living and godliness, looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?...Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, Beware lest ye also, being lead away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him is glory both now and forever. Amen."



Bro. Brown

 

[elman]

While Jesus and the thief and Lazarus went to the paradise portion of Hades, the rich man went to the unpleasant area which included torment and flame."

The problem with taking the story of the rich man an Lazarus to prove what Heaven or hell will be like is that was not the intent of the story. The intent of the story was to teach that wealth is not a barometer of how good our relationship is with God. Using it to teach more than that may be a mistake.

 

[elman]

All men (with few exceptions) die, the righteous and the unrighteous. Even babies who have had no chance to develop a conscience die. God explicitly says that the soul that sins will die. Taken in context and contrasted against the part of the message where God is clearly talking about the resurrection of the righteous, one can see the meaning here as the fate of the unrighteous. It is not logical to be speaking about the physical death of the unrighteous as punishment for sin but be speaking of a future resurrection of the righteous as a reward for righteousness. Looking at it that way even the righteous are being punished the same as the unrighteous yet God says this is NOT what will happen. This is why we must look at the meaning of the word translated as “die”. It helps in understanding the message God is revealing to His people here. Obviously if we can conclude that He is speaking of the resurrection to eternal life as a reward for the righteous then it is only logical that the death he is speaking of for the unrighteous is their eternal punishment in Gehenna, the death He is speaking of is the second death. The soul that sins will see the second death (it will be cast into Gehenna), however the righteous shall not die but shall live (in other words they will never be in danger of the second death)."

Ezekiel 18 is talking about spiritual death and spiritual life, not physical. We know this because the righteous and unrighteous die physically thus the statment the soul that sins shall die has no meaning unless it is referring to spiritual death. The second death is the death of the body and the soul, the death of the wicked from which there is no hope and no resurrection. It is not conscious suffering forever, but complete destruction and everlating death--everlasting non existence.

 

[elman]

We've already noticed the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 and the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43. Both of these instances also prove that conscious existence continues after the death of the body"

No these scriptures do not prove that the wicked have conscious existence after physical death. The thief on the cross does indicate as many other scriptures do, that the righteous will live in the house of the Lord forever.

 

[Cliff2]

We've already noticed the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 and the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43. Both of these instances also prove that conscious existence continues after the death of the body"

No these scriptures do not prove that the wicked have conscious existence after physical death. The thief on the cross does indicate as many other scriptures do, that the righteous will live in the house of the Lord forever.

The Rich Man and Lazarus was only a parable and was never meant to be used as doctrine. There are just too many inconsistencies in the parable for it to be used as doctrine.

What does the "thief on the cross" prove?

I will tell you what it does show, he did not go to paradise that Friday afternoon. Jesus did not either. He went to the grave.

 

[deu58]

Hi cliff

I will tell you what it does show, he did not go to paradise that Friday afternoon. Jesus did not either. He went to the grave.

Yes that is true, But was he asleep in the Grave?


1pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


Not according to the scriptures

The Rich Man and Lazarus was only a parable and was never meant to be used as doctrine. There are just too many inconsistencies in the parable for it to be used as doctrine

.

I find it strange that you would say the words of our Lord are inconsistent.
I guess that is because they go against the teachings of the SDA Spirit of Prophecy?


yours in Christ
deu58

 

[Cliff2]

Hi cliff
Yes that is true, But was he asleep in the Grave?


1pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


Not according to the scriptures

.

I find it strange that you would say the words of our Lord are inconsistent.
I guess that is because they go against the teachings of the SDA Spirit of Prophecy?


yours in Christ
deu58

Good to have you back again mate.

Right, He was asleep in the grave and not in heaven. That alone shows that the thief was not with Him. That Jesus did not go to paradise as some think so.

Look and read the parable and see that no one can take it to mean that you go to heaven wwhen they die.

 

[deu58]

Hi cliff

Back for a short time, Need to go again soon I am afraid,

Right, He was asleep in the grave and not in heaven. That alone shows that the thief was not with Him. That Jesus did not go to paradise as some think so.

Wrong, Look at the verse, He was not asleep in the tomb, his went to preach to the the spirits in Hades, Or maybe he was just talking in his sleep?

yours in Christ
deu58

 

[drmmjr]

Hi drmmjr,

Just wanted to take a moment and reply to your last posting.

Thanks for your response.

Did you read the rest of my post and the Scriptures I posted with it? Isaiah and John both tell us that those that are sent to the “second death” do not actually “die” in the sense that many think of death, in other words they do not cease to exist but rather the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and they do not rest day or night. This doesn’t seem to be describing oblivion. Again I ask if death is oblivion, and is the same nothingness for all, then why were Jesus and the apostles so careful about the words they chose to describe what we have generally adopted in the English language as hell. As far as looking at the meaning of words, should we ignore the true meaning of what was written in favor of what we would like it to say? Go back and read Isaiah 66:24 and Revelation 14:10-11. This is the description of Gehenna, the second death.

I read those Scriptures. You say that those who die the "second death" do not cease to exist, but instead are suffering in some pit for eternity. In order for that to happen, they would need to have immortality, wouldn't they. But do they? Do we, prior to the resurrection? There is only one who has immortality.
1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

We will only receive immortality by believing in Jesus.
John 6:37-40 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Again I refer you to the Scriptures I previously posted. They describe this second death and what they do not describe is the cessation of existence that we, from a human perspective, tend to associate with death. We are never told that the lost will be sentenced to oblivion. This would not be torment as oblivion is neither torment nor paradise. I think the misunderstanding comes from our human understanding of death. Death is separation from the body. Death is a confinement. The second death will be a confinement to the lake of fire.

Here are some things that will happen to the wicked dead at Judgment.
The wicked dead will be raised from the dead and punished:
Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

They will not live forever:
1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

They shall be consumed (used up, destroyed):
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

They shall perish (waste away, disappear, die):
Psalms 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
2 Peter 2:9-13 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

They shall be destroyed (totally demolished, annihilate, slay):
Job 31:1 I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?
Psalms 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

They shall be burned up:
Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that is shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Revelation 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

All men (with few exceptions) die, the righteous and the unrighteous. Even babies who have had no chance to develop a conscience die. God explicitly says that the soul that sins will die. Taken in context and contrasted against the part of the message where God is clearly talking about the resurrection of the righteous, one can see the meaning here as the fate of the unrighteous. It is not logical to be speaking about the physical death of the unrighteous as punishment for sin but be speaking of a future resurrection of the righteous as a reward for righteousness. Looking at it that way even the righteous are being punished the same as the unrighteous yet God says this is NOT what will happen. This is why we must look at the meaning of the word translated as “die”. It helps in understanding the message God is revealing to His people here. Obviously if we can conclude that He is speaking of the resurrection to eternal life as a reward for the righteous then it is only logical that the death he is speaking of for the unrighteous is their eternal punishment in Gehenna, the death He is speaking of is the second death. The soul that sins will see the second death (it will be cast into Gehenna), however the righteous shall not die but shall live (in other words they will never be in danger of the second death).

We need to realize that all men are "subject to death" at least once.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.
But notice that after that death, man is subject to the judgment. Both the righteous and unrighteous are subject to this "first" death. Where the difference in what happens to the righteous vs. the unrighteous is at the Judgment when Jesus returns. That is when our "rewards" are given to us.

Luke 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;Both the righteous and unrighteous will be resurrected.
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Yes, the unrighteous receive eternal punishment, but the punishing will not last forever. When the unrighteous are punished by being thrown into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed, it is the destruction that will last for eternity, not the act of being destroyed (burning).

Was Jesus speaking the truth or not? He said that we should not fear those who can kill the body because they CANNOT kill the soul. We should fear the one who can destroy both the body and soul in Gehenna (the eternal hell). Now if it is true that the soul dies when the body dies then it IS possible for one who kills the body to kill the soul. This would mean that what Jesus said could not be true since He said they cannot kill the soul. How is this reconciled? If physical death is also the death of the soul then these murderers have the same power that God has because they can kill the soul when they kill the body just as God can destroy the soul as well as the body. Yet Jesus tells us this is not so. So was Jesus speaking the truth or not?

As I pointed out earlier, "we" are the soul, not we "have" a soul. Man might be able to kill a person, but God can bring that person back to life. Only God is able to completely and utterly kill a person (in the second death) where that person can never be brought back to life.

From our discussion, it sounds like you believe that we have an immortal soul. This is not the case. The only way that we can receive immortality is by believing in Jesus, and the only time that we will receive this is at the resurrection, when Jesus returns.

Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
1 Corinthians 15:51-54 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[aragorn]

No one knows what happens when you die.

"let the dead bury the dead and let the living look to the living."

 

[Cliff2]

No one knows what happens when you die.

"let the dead bury the dead and let the living look to the living."

The Bible tells us what happens.

"For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing"

 

[good4u]

Ah... the endless opinons on the world beyond...some very biblically accurate and others well, some need to study the Word...

So it is my turn...

It appears most have already given the most quoted Scriptures about death so I won't belabor that point. So let's make a practical application about what does it all mean for both believers and unbeleivers? That is what I would want to know -- what exactly happens?

Death: A physical separation of the soul from the body. Physical life in the body stops.

IF you understand that a living being consists of both material matter and immaterial matter, the material matter normally is disposed of in some way.

If you understand that immaterial matter [i.e., your soul] is what God deals with at death.

If you are a believer, at the time of physical death, your soul is immediately aware that it is in the presence of the Lord as Scripture points out and it quoted in this thread. It is not entirely clear to me, at least, if the Bema seat judgment of Christ happens at the time of physical death or at the end of the age. This is merely a time issue, but rest assured the judgment of Christ will be for believers and you will have rewards (or not) depending upon your obedience to Christ during your life lived on earth.

What about an unbelievers death?

Again, the process of death is the same, i.e., the soul separates from the body.

However, the unbeleiver is immediately separated from God and is also aware but in a place of torture and flame for eternity.


It is no wonder unbelievers are terrified of death for they have no assurance of their relationship to God in Christ. How terrible for them!!!!!

It is far, far better to live a life for Christ than to die unexpectedly and not have a relationship to Christ when you could have done it during your lifetime.

Death for believers does not hold the same terror as it does for unbelievers. Christ's death and ressurection and those who trust in him should not have to live in fear of death, even if it comes unexpectedly. For believers, death is as though you are walking through a door from one room to another to be greeter by the Master of the House.

 

[drmmjr]

Ah... the endless opinons on the world beyond...some very biblically accurate and others well, some need to study the Word...

So it is my turn...

It appears most have already given the most quoted Scriptures about death so I won't belabor that point. So let's make a practical application about what does it all mean for both believers and unbeleivers? That is what I would want to know -- what exactly happens?

Death: A physical separation of the soul from the body. Physical life in the body stops.

IF you understand that a living being consists of both material matter and immaterial matter, the material matter normally is disposed of in some way.

If you understand that immaterial matter [i.e., your soul] is what God deals with at death.

If you are a believer, at the time of physical death, your soul is immediately aware that it is in the presence of the Lord as Scripture points out and it quoted in this thread. It is not entirely clear to me, at least, if the Bema seat judgment of Christ happens at the time of physical death or at the end of the age. This is merely a time issue, but rest assured the judgment of Christ will be for believers and you will have rewards (or not) depending upon your obedience to Christ during your life lived on earth.

What about an unbelievers death?

Again, the process of death is the same, i.e., the soul separates from the body.

However, the unbeleiver is immediately separated from God and is also aware but in a place of torture and flame for eternity.


It is no wonder unbelievers are terrified of death for they have no assurance of their relationship to God in Christ. How terrible for them!!!!!

It is far, far better to live a life for Christ than to die unexpectedly and not have a relationship to Christ when you could have done it during your lifetime.

What scripture do you have that shows an immortal soul?

Death for believers does not hold the same terror as it does for unbelievers. Christ's death and ressurection and those who trust in him should not have to live in fear of death, even if it comes unexpectedly. For believers, death is as though you are walking through a door from one room to another to be greeter by the Master of the House.

No, death is not a door going from one room to another. It is the enemy. It is what takes our loved ones from us.[bible]1 Corinthians 15:26[/bible]