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What happens to non-Christians when they die?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Neo, Apr 27, 2002.

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  1. jrmorganjr

    jrmorganjr Paladin

    310
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    Methodist
    US-Republican
    And here we wander off into predistination. humblejoe, you're equivocating "predestining them to sin" to "force them to sin." He created them with free will, knowing they would sin - that's not the same thing as forcing them. They make their decisions without compulsion. The fact that God knew about it ahead of time doesn't mean he created it, he allowed it, such that the greater good and glory of His plan could happen.

    The vessels of wrath somehow allow the vessels of grace to have a deeper good and glory-response than the evil that they did.
     
  2. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    God is all-powerful, so He could have created mankind with freewill, and at the same time He could have given us the strength and wisdom to overcome the temptation to sin, but He chose not too. He chose to make mankind weak, He chose to make us vulnerable to temptation, and He knew that we would give into temptation. God chose to punish us for the weakness that He gave us when He created us.
     
  3. jrmorganjr

    jrmorganjr Paladin

    310
    +0
    Methodist
    US-Republican
    Good point, Neo. I can only say that perhaps the nature of Free Will creates some necessities. Or that God's glory and goodness would be maximized through a "weaker" vessel, where He has to do more work, and we have to be the vessels of that work.

    I'm sure the overriding consideration is the maximization of God's glory & goodness. Everything else is reconciling ourselves to our part in the grand play.

    Thanks for the incisive analysis.
     
  4. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    +538
    Catholic
    US-Others
    Well, I don't know about you, but I think that God has total control over the universe. I think God will have the universe end in the exact way that He wishes, and in order for Him to do that, He's GOT to control everything.

    OF COURSE God didn't FORCE Adam. It was in Adam's nature to sin. God wasn't forcing Adam to do something that he wasn't already going to do.

    Take this as an example. If you put a bowl of salad and a bowl of raw meat in front of a lion, which do you think it will eat EVERY SINGLE TIME? The lion will eat the meat. WHY? Because it was CREATED with that nature. It was designed and born to eat meat. It doesn't have to be forced against its will to eat the meat because it WANTS to eat the meat, just like Adam WANTED to sin. God didn't come down on the spot and force Adam's hand, but rather destined Adam to sin from the beginning.
     
  5. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    And where did that nature come from? God gave it to Adam when he created him.
     
  6. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    It wasn't in Adam's nature to sin, it was in his nature to choose. The desire to sin came not from inside Adam and Eve, but from outside. Sin comes from loving youself and your desires over God and His.

    What did Christ say was the greatest commandment? To love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself. If a Buddahist is doing these things and following the will of God as best he knows how, then I pray Christ is happy with him and greets him in Heaven. Christ is the judge. If by some action of my own I have caused a man to not believe in the message of Christ, then may he be forgiven and the punishment be on my head.

    Rejection of Christ is not the same as ignorance of Him. I do not believe it matters whether they are ignorant by never having heard of Him, or by our misrepresentation of Christ.

    That being said, I do believe that certain beliefs systems promote things that are evil, and this cannot be overlooked. These things generally revolve around the love of self. I do not believe that someone who does not follow Christ is saved by their individual belief, but in spite of it. Loving others and putting yourself at their service out of love can do no one harm.

    God bless you all,

    Neal
     
  7. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

    +3,044
    Catholic
    Private

    Rejection of Christ is not the same as ignorance of Him. I do not believe it matters whether they are ignorant by never having heard of Him, or by our misrepresentation of Christ.


    Thank you, Neal for pointing that out. That is something we can easily overlook sometimes.

    Michelle
     
  8. No gods

    No gods Buttercup Atheist

    681
    +1
    Atheist
    Hey, I like what you said here. Just a quick "what if" question:

    Let's say, for example, that someone doesn't believe in gods and jesus because the way most people represent gods and jesus, including the way the bible portrays them, contradicts what the person knows of the world through experience and science. Oh, and this is a law abiding citizen. (in my opinion moral, but probably not in yours as this person believes in the right to abortion, the right to be gay, etc) Then do you think this person is going to heaven or hell?
     
  9. JOhnPreparer

    JOhnPreparer Member

    257
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    "I am the way and the only way to the Father"
    Those who do not acknowledge Christ cannot received the gift of life. If you do not know someone, a stranger and he offer a present will you accept the gift. I think you will not because you will be curious and being careful. Same with the Lord Jesus Christ, you do not know HIm, will you accept His salvation to you.

    All of us are dead through sin that we bear in life journey. We are slave of sin and the King of sin is Satan and therefore without Christ, we are bound under him and where Satan goes, the followers will go to.

    jp - wise in choosing
     
  10. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    The only egocentric religions that I know of are Satanism and the Temple of Set, all other religions that I have studied are altrustic, and they have many things in common.
     
  11. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    To no gods: it isn't up to me to answer what ifs. What I know is that some things are blantantly wrong. The Bible is one of the ways a Christian learns what God wants from Him. I feel that to reject the message of Christ put forth in it is to misunderstand God and what He wants from us.

    The message you see from some Christians is different than the one preached by Christ. Please make sure you don't reject the latter in rejecting the former.

    In Christ,

    Neal
     
  12. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    I agree with this statement almost completely. There are many beautiful things that are offered to us from other faiths. The concentration of Zen Buddahism, the prayer life of Islam, the respect for nature inherent in most pantheotic faiths. The problem arises, though, in the additions to altruism.

    The problem as I see it is in the motivation. Much modern Christianity preaches that all that matters is a personal relationship with Christ and your interpretation of scripture. To help others is an after effect and not at all necessary, strictly speaking. The best way to help someone is to teach them to have a personal relationship with Christ.

    The same self-centered undercurrent can be found in most other faiths. In the pantheotic faiths the gods are manipulated through chants or magic. Eastern mysticism teaches one to help others as a means to gain liberation, the ultimate goal being the state Mushin in Japanese, No Mind. This state is the realization that all is an illusion; an apparent form taken by formlessness. The desire to help someone then stems not from love, but from a desire for balance.

    To the early Chinese, the Tao was the unknowable and the ineffable. To a Christian, the Tao decided to become known.

    To a Christian, the life of God is in its essence love. The commandment of Christ was to love God with all of your heart, and your neighbor as yourself. St. Paul says that if one has a faith to move mountains, but not love, then that man has nothing. By living out a finite love on earth, we hope to share in an infinite love in Heaven.

    That, to me, is the bare bones of it all. The other dogmas of the faith are necessarily true because of love. I hope I haven't confused everyone too badly. I know my thoughts aren't clear at points, but I tried to explain them anyway. What do ya'll think?

    Neal
     
  13. peirced2door

    peirced2door New Member

    28
    +0
    they go to hell to await the judgement and sentence to the lake of fire.
     
  14. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    The loving and merciful Christian God is going to do that? God will be sending the majority of His children into the lake of fire to burn for eternity then..
     
  15. JOhnPreparer

    JOhnPreparer Member

    257
    +0
    One thing, we need to be clear is that, those who do not receives Christ as Saviour and Lord are actually not the Children of Father Almighty but belongs to the Father of Lies that is Satan. Therefore, where the Father goes, the children will follow.

    The people not under GOd's covering will be experiencing the second death, "lakes of fire - eternal death in spirit" while the saved one will have eternal life in new heaven.

    jp - Like Father, Like son :)
     
  16. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    So, the little children dieing in non-Christian countries are the children of Satan and they deserve to burn for eternity?
     
  17. JOhnPreparer

    JOhnPreparer Member

    257
    +0
    Frankly speaking: YES

    That is why the countries are given the title, "the 10/40 windows"... places where either Christianity haven't been preached or it was banned. Satan's work is quite strong there, bonding them.

    If you read BIBLE carefully, you can see that there was a verse that stated that, ALL HAS SINNED, AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD.

    Actually all are condemned to hell because we follow the lier (SATAN), and bonded by the sin we have in us....
    but Jesus's blood redeemed us from our sins and cleansed it so that we can go back to the Father.

    One Verse: Christ dies for us, while we are yet sinners

    People needs salvation in those places, that is why some willing to risk their own life to go there... like Muslim-dominon countries, the movement must be underground.

    jp-hard but true
     
  18. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    So, let me get this straight now.... Jesus loves the little children, but if any of them decide not to love him back, or if they don't know about him, he’ll throw them into a lake of fire?

    Feel the love!
     
  19. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    +538
    Catholic
    US-Others
    Jesus loves the little children?

    And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." - Romans 9:10-13, NASB

    God doesn't save little children because they are "innocent"; if God saves a child, it's because He CHOOSES to save that child. All of us are conceived with a nature of sin. If God does not choose us for salvation and adopt us as sons, cleansing us from sin, then we do not receive salvation. No baby is innocent; it just hasn't had the opportunity to actively exercise it's sinful nature yet.
     
  20. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    Hmm... I wonder where that sinful nature came from? Maybe God gave it to us when He created us? Gee, I wonder why He would do such a thing...
     
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