What happens . . . (The Ladder of Divine Ascent) ?

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,999
2,486
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟558,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Everyone CAN be saved but not everyone CHOOSES to be saved. This is precisely why God gives us the free will to choose our path. Without it, it all devolves into Universalism, the belief that everyone is saved, or other heresies which are increasingly common in the progressive Protestant sects in particular these days. Where is the impetus, given our sinful nature, to live a pious and devout life if we know we will all go to heaven upon death? Why not just live a hedonistic and degenerate life as the modern world encourages us to do? Virtue becomes watered down into irrelevancy without the consequences of failing to repent before our final breath.

So what you are saying is that we should choose Christ out of fear rather than love? That response is one of self-centeredness rather than self-giving, self-sacrificial love to which we are called. Do I really love Christ if my following along after Him is for what I can get out of it?

Since the Scriptures use marriage as an analogy, I feel appropriate to respond in that manner. When a man falls insanely in love with a woman, he sacrifices for her. We have heard stories where a man gave his very life to save the one he loved. We should be of the same mind and heart with our loving Savior.

You ask a very good question, however, which is this: if Universalism is true, then why not live as I please? Fornicate, do drugs, drink to unconsciousness, steal, lie, do whatever I want because I am going to end up in heaven anyway. Here is the last chapter from the book, A LAYMAN INVESTIGATES UNIVERSAL SALVATION. Let me know what you think, but I think the author makes an important point here regarding your question:

If This is True, Why Even Bother?

One of the more frequent objections to the teaching of universal salvation is that it gives no reason to people to repent. If everyone is going to heaven anyway–why bother? Just live life, do whatever you want to, and then at the end, you get the Pearly Gates and the streets of gold. As a Jewish friend of mine used to say, “Such a deal!”

Proponents of eternal conscious torment warn that teaching it sends souls to hell, believing that people will engage in sin without fear of punishment. This is an understandable concern, given mankind’s penchant for finding excuses to sin. Both our Lord and St. Paul warned that we shall receive rewards for both the good and the evil we have done in this life. My wish is that books on universal salvation would remind people of this fact and warn them that evil behavior will reap a bitter consequence in the next life. I have a great concern that as this teaching of God’s universal salvific love is becoming more openly taught, many sinners may use it as excuse to not turn to Christ and instead, live as their selfishness demands, then curse us in the next life as they inherit the painful chastening which they have earned by doing evil works.

Sin is not a thing to take lightly. There are many warnings in the Bible which point to great losses which will be experienced by those who turn from God’s gracious offer of salvation and instead indulge their passions.

The Consequences of Refusal–Why Evangelize?

To save people from torment in the next life.

What person is so cold-hearted that he can observe without pity the suffering of another human being? Do not all but the most hard-hearted and indifferent want to run to the aid of another human being who is suffering? If we could see the suffering of souls in the next life, how they cry out for mercy, how the reality of their sins torments them, we would strive to warn everyone that our sins carry a price to pay. I am sure that Hugh Hefner wishes now that he had listened to the voices which urged him to turn from his wickedness. I believe he is in despair, thinking that the torments he is suffering will never end. Do I really want that for even the worst of people? Or do I love them as God loves them, looking on them with pity and trying to warn them of the painful chastisement which lies ahead, so that hopefully they may avoid it?

In Orthodox eschatology, there is not a place called hell. All souls go to be in the presence of Christ. All experience His endless love as God. But those who have loved sin, who have turned from God and embraced sin and selfishness, will find His love is a dreadful torment, while those who have repented in this life will find His love to be a warm embrace. The condition of our souls at death determines how we experience God in the next life. It is a mercy to warn people of this fact because the torment the wicked will experience will seem endless. Even if it assuredly does end, who in their right mind would wish suffering upon another? Unlike the musings of St. Thomas Aquinas, who said that the righteous in heaven would look upon the suffering of the wicked and rejoice in it bringing glory to God, the Bible states that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Neither should we.

To give people joy in this life.


Many of the people who loudly proclaim how they enjoy their sin go home at night and weep in loneliness and misery. I have both seen this in others, when the imbibing of a sufficient amount of alcohol released true feelings, and I have personally experienced it myself. As a young man, I could not understand why I was depressed and having serious thoughts of suicide, which terrified me. I was having fun, at least, according to the world’s idea of fun. I did drugs, which made my body feel pleasure, engaged in free-wheeling sexual adventures, and lived a life totally for myself. How could I be unhappy?

But I was–desperately so–and I have met people who have expressed the same thing about their former lives of sin. Sin is a lie. It is the cheese in the mousetrap. That first bite is oh, so good! But there is a terrible price to pay when down the road the spring is triggered. There is a reason those who practice sexual perversity have suicide rates three times the national average. Our actions have consequences, despite the constant drumbeat of those propagandists who tell us that we can do whatever we want with no sorrow or regret. We were made for joy, for love, for peaceful lives. Sin ruins all this in this life and leads to torment in the next until the full debt is paid.

For the benefit of the community.

Jesus and St. Paul both made it abundantly clear that there are consequences to our actions in this life. If walking in the love of God, which is the goal of the Christian life, brings peace to nations and between people, walking in hatred and selfishness brings nothing but misery. Sin not only ruins your life; it ruins the lives of those with whom you come into contact. Look at any action which causes destruction and sorrow in this world: constant wars (caused by lies and political selfishness), poverty (caused by the insatiable greed of the rich), divorce (caused by selfishness in the marital relationship), sexual diseases and death (caused by immoral behavior), fights, thefts, rape, murder, etc.

These sins are caused by those who have no inner moral guidance such as the Christian faith provides, and they devastate individuals, communities, and nations. Our world from the beginning has been in an almost constant state of war between nations because of the lies of politicians, the greed of kings, and the lust for power and conquest. In war, families suffer the loss of loved ones and injuries that will last a lifetime. Young women live in a rape culture because of magazines like Playboy, spawned by the Sexual Revolution of the 1960’s, which taught us the lie that sex is not reserved for marriage alone, but is a fine sport for a weekend. inappropriate contentography inflames the lusts of men to seek an outlet. Rape is the result. A whole security industry has arisen because there are immoral people who will steal all your money if they can just access your personal information online.

I have read online testimonies of people who engaged in wickedness and hedonism, only to come to a place where the pleasure they found in sin had turned to dust in their mouths. Psychologists have said most people who are institutionalized for deep psychological problems are burdened with guilt for what they have done. Inappropriate or excessive guilt is listed as a symptom of depression by the American Psychiatric Association (1994).

To experience Christ, not just to know about Him, but to really experience Him, brings a deep change in the way a person lives. As one grows in Christ and in love, sin becomes less and less attractive. The good of others becomes increasingly important. Changed lives mean changed societies, and ultimately, a changed world. We as Christians need to tell people this, and more importantly, live it in front of them.
The Christian is to be a follower of Christ in a humility which prefers others to self. How would such thinking affect the behavior of people in the public venue? Would we see the hatred of racism, the grinding down of the poor, the political and theological lies we see which mold our lives to hate one another as enemies instead of looking to others in a spirit of love and friendship? Sin brings a terrible cost with it, and those who are not being transformed by the Holy Spirit into Christlikeness will in some way or the other fall into its trap.

In the first century Roman Empire, Christians stood out because of the love they had for others. In an empire in which women were chattel property, slaves were raped and beaten with impunity, war was common, and punishments for crimes were excessive, the Christian community was a beacon of light in a darkened world. In every country where the message of Christ went, pagan nations were turned from darkness and selfishness to self-giving love. Man in his natural state cannot achieve this. No number of political programs, wars, or coercion by violence can bring the internal and external peace the saints experienced and showed to the world by their lives. From the Roman Empire to the Aztec nation, the violent pagan nations which expanding Christianity encountered reflected the natural condition of man’s heart–violence and cruelty. Submission to Christ changes this violence by changing men’s hearts.

Look at the condition of the world today. Every misery you see has a foundation in the selfishness of sin. If this is what life should be, if this is what you want and enjoy, then, no, there is no need to convert. But if you believe we could have so much better, if the condition of the world distresses you because of the hatred and violence you see, then this is one very earthly reason for people to turn to Christ.

The Offer of Rewards
Matthew 16:27 “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

Matthew 5:12 “Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.”
Matthew 5:46 “For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?”

Matthew 6:1 “Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.”

Matthew 6:2 “Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward.”

I have had people tell me that eternal life is the reward we get, and they are incensed to think someone who lives a life of repentance and sacrifice would get the same reward as a desperately evil man. Searching the Bible gives us no such idea. Quite to the contrary, Jesus says that every man will be rewarded according to his works. He also says that it is possible to lose one’s reward. Eternal life is the victory of Christ over death for all mankind. What we do with the offer determines what we receive in the ages of ages.

What is to be gained or lost? Here are my thoughts, which I hope you will consider.

(CONTINUE NEXT PAGE)
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,999
2,486
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟558,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
(CONTINUATION)


The Reward of Honor.

John 12:26 “If anyone wants to serve me, he must follow me, and where I am, my servant will be too. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.”

Where will the Father honor those who have been faithful servants of Christ? It must be in the ages of ages to come, in the courts of heaven.

Romans 2:10 “. . . but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, for the Jew first and also the Greek.”

Where? Certainly not here on earth. Those who have done good have often been dishonored and suffered terribly at the hands of the wicked. I believe this honor spoken of awaits the faithful in the next life.

First Timothy 5:17 “Elders who provide effective leadership must be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching.”

If so on earth, how much more so in the next life?”

First Peter 1:7 “Such trials show the proven character of your faith, which is much more valuable than gold–gold that is tested by fire, even though it is passing away–and will bring praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.”

Scripture proves my point. There is praise and glory which awaits all the faithful at the end of this life. Conversely, for those who love their sin, there will be no honor. There may even be contempt for them until they have expiated their sins. Where there is great honor, there must also be those who have lesser honor. And if Christ warned about losing our rewards and our honor, then we should take this warning seriously.

Matthew 5:19 “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Jesus said there would be those who would be called least in the kingdom of heaven. If here on earth we call men like St. John Chrysostom great, how much more will he be acknowledged in the eternal kingdom? If men sacrifice here on earth, giving up many good things to achieve earthly honors, what more should we be willing to give up for the honor which will last forever? I cannot believe that I, a man who willingly plunged himself into wickedness for years, and whose Christian life has been less than exemplary, would go into eternity and receive the same honor and glory as a monk who for fifty years lived a life of ascetic denial and faithfulness in prayer on Mount Athos. It would be unjust of God to do such a thing! And as the Infernalists like to remind us, God is just!

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.”

What then of the man who does not resist temptation? The one who is baptized into the church and then goes forth to live a life of utter sin and selfishness? Do you really think this one will also get the same crown promised to those who fight temptation, some even unto death? Those righteous souls who warred against sin in this lifetime, who practiced ascetic denial, who obeyed God in all things to the best of their ability, shall have a crown of glory which will testify to their faithfulness for all eternity. I guarantee you, if you could see the beauty and glory of the crown which awaits the faithful, you would consider sin your dire enemy and strive to do all you could to obtain that crown!
Look at St. Paul, enduring beatings, stoning, and other trials. For what?

First Corinthians 9:25 “And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.”

Paul knew. He understood what it was that he was striving for. Far be it from him to say “Meaaah, God is going to save all, so it doesn’t really matter what I do”

Second Timothy 4:8 “Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”

The Fram Oil Filter Corporation ran a television ad years ago in which the punch line was “You can pay me now. . . or you can pay me later.” In the ad, a mechanic delivered this line, standing in front of a disassembled automobile engine. The idea was simple. Pay now for the filter and protect your engine, or pay later for a complete engine overhaul when it fails, which will be far more expensive to your wallet than a few dollars for a Fram filter now.

In Matthew 5:19–26, Jesus is teaching about sin and judgment. He ends this section of the Sermon on the Mount with this warning: “Verily I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.”

In closing, I beg of you to be wise. I am begging you on bended knee. Please believe me, you do not want to pay later for the sins you think so important in this life. Turning to Christ now is going to be a whole lot easier than having to go through the painful scourging of God’s love in the next age. Pay to God what is owed now. He is owed our loving obedience, our turning from sin and self, and our faithfulness, even unto death. The cost in this life may be great, but the reward in the next life will be worth any sacrifice you make."


This is the one thing that troubles me regarding those who preach Universal Salvation - their lack of warning to the wicked. David Bentley Hart did an interview on this subject a few years ago and never once warned people that there is a painful chastening for sin that awaits all the unrepentant after death. This was in the NY Times, so millions of people may have read it and went away thinking they were just fine and no need to repent.

I wish to love God with all my heart. It grieves me to no end that my heart is so divided, and my "love" is so cold towards Him. How many times have I had to force myself to keep my prayer rule, to get my lazy carcass out of bed for Liturgy, etc? And it is precisely because of this cold heart, this lack of a deep and passionate love for Him and all the many good things He has done for me, that I find myself fearing that if there really is an eternal hell, I'm a candidate. How easy it is to fool ourselves, thinking we are good people when we lack so much!!
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,999
2,486
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟558,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
We are saved THROUGH God's grace and mercy despite our sinful nature (which we all share). This is why saints typically moved towards understanding their sinfulness far more intently and viscerally as they walk their path toward Christ. That is what the icon of the Ladder of Divine Ascent and the book itself depict. The icon clearly shows that it is Christ at the top accepting us with open arms, but the struggle never ends until the moment we die. To our final breath, demons will be trying to pull us off the path. Be vigilant and never waver.

This is the problem. If this were just a matter of losing rewards by giving up on the fight, that's one thing. But according to the response I got, the consequence is much, MUCH more serious than just losing a crown or two. It is an eternity in howling misery, pain that never stops and has no remediation.

This is not a freakin' game!!! This is deadly serious, IF eternal hell is true. And most of Christendom thinks that its true, but their behavior makes me wonder if they really believe it. People have friends and relatives living wicked lives and never once ask them "Are you right with God?" "Have you repented?" "Do you know you are going to heaven when you die?"

Fundamentalists of the Bob Jones variety may be wrong in their theology, but you have to hand one thing to them: they act like they really believe in hell and are concerned to pull people out of it.

If the demons are pulling people like you and me off the ladder and into perdition, what are we doing to grab them by the shirttail and pull tham back into the path of salvation?

Something that really bothered me about the Eastern Christian experience in general: when I have suggested evangelistic outreach to our neighborhood, I was met with either skepticism or the idea that we just don't do that. Let the Baptists knock on doors. I recently suggested to my sponsor in the Orthodox Church that perhaps we could set up a table in front of a willing store with a simple message like: GOD LOVES YOU - MAY WE PRAY FOR YOU? I thought it would be a good way to meet people and have spiritual discussions. I was told something to the effect that this is not the Orthodox way.

Sorry . . . I'm really off topic and rambling here. I'll just shut up for now.
 
Upvote 0

Lukaris

Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2007
7,887
2,551
Pennsylvania, USA
✟755,703.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
From Light of the East #23:


Orthodox Church that perhaps we could set up a table in front of a willing store with a simple message like: GOD LOVES YOU - MAY WE PRAY FOR YOU? I thought it would be a good way to meet people and have spiritual discussions


Actually, that sounds like a decent idea. Personally, I believe evangelism can begin in our prayer life by saying the Jesus Prayer. After we say “have mercy on me a sinner” we can pray “have mercy on us”. Our retired parish priest told me to not say “us sinners” ( 1 Timothy 1:15),One can easily do this while climbing the ladder. I have always used intercessory prayer as a proactive tendency while working out my salvation with fear & trembling ( Philippians 2:12).

I believe this brings the Lord’s commandments ( Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 7:12 etc.) deeper into our prayers as we pray for ourselves and our neighbors. I believe this is something we can use a tool for evangelism to be shared.

Everyone should be an evangelist as far as prayer is concerned. It is the only way to even begin evangelism ( Matthew 9:36-38). Teaching people to pray for themselves and their neighbors lived by faith with basic charity ( as the Lord tells us in Matthew 6:1-14) is both an individual & community effort.

The thing is, this can be evangelical in a person to person sense and overall spiritual sense. Scriptures like Ezekiel 18:4-9, Matthew 12:30-33 shows that God is more expansive as regards to souls than we can ever imagine.

Still, we must not fall into any delusion on this since we are still working out our own salvation ( Matthew 10:28 etc.).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,999
2,486
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟558,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
From Light of the East #23:


Orthodox Church that perhaps we could set up a table in front of a willing store with a simple message like: GOD LOVES YOU - MAY WE PRAY FOR YOU? I thought it would be a good way to meet people and have spiritual discussions


Actually, that sounds like a decent idea. Personally, I believe evangelism can begin in our prayer life by saying the Jesus Prayer. After we say “have mercy on me a sinner” we can pray “have mercy on us”. Our retired parish priest told me to not say “us sinners” ( 1 Timothy 1:15),One can easily do this while climbing the ladder. I have always used intercessory prayer as a proactive tendency while working out my salvation with fear & trembling ( Philippians 2:12).

I believe this brings the Lord’s commandments ( Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 7:12 etc.) deeper into our prayers as we pray for ourselves and our neighbors. I believe this is something we can use a tool for evangelism to be shared.

Everyone should be an evangelist as far as prayer is concerned. It is the only way to even begin evangelism ( Matthew 9:36-38). Teaching people to pray for themselves and their neighbors lived by faith with basic charity ( as the Lord tells us in Matthew 6:1-14) is both an individual & community effort.

The thing is, this can be evangelical in a person to person sense and overall spiritual sense. Scriptures like Ezekiel 18:4-9, Matthew 12:30-33 shows that God is more expansive as regards to souls than we can ever imagine.

Still, we must not fall into any delusion on this since we are still working out our own salvation ( Matthew 10:28 etc.).
I thought about it for a while, wanting to reach out to people with the beauty of Orthodoxy. What I didn't want was some Fundamentalist, Bible-thumping "YER GONNA GO TO HELL IFFN YOU DON'T REEEPENT!" kind of approach. One of my favorite phrases in our prayers is "For thou alone lovest mankind." I think people are desperate for love and to know that their lives have meaning.

I'm still thinking of doing it. Should I only do so with my priest's blessing however?
 
Upvote 0

Lukaris

Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2007
7,887
2,551
Pennsylvania, USA
✟755,703.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I thought about it for a while, wanting to reach out to people with the beauty of Orthodoxy. What I didn't want was some Fundamentalist, Bible-thumping "YER GONNA GO TO HELL IFFN YOU DON'T REEEPENT!" kind of approach. One of my favorite phrases in our prayers is "For thou alone lovest mankind." I think people are desperate for love and to know that their lives have meaning.

I'm still thinking of doing it. Should I only do so with my priest's blessing however?
I would think anything where the parish property is concerned, the priest should have to give the blessing. I also believe anyone can speak to people one on one anywhere and invite them to liturgy. That seems to me a different option.
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,999
2,486
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟558,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I would think anything where the parish property is concerned, the priest should have to give the blessing. I also believe anyone can speak to people one on one anywhere and invite them to liturgy. That seems to me a different option.

Yes. I have some pamphlets on Orthodoxy which I carry with me. I've invited some people to the Liturgy and given them the pamphlets. No response so far, but God will do what He will do with my meager efforts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lukaris
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,563
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,467,220.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I'm still thinking of doing it. Should I only do so with my priest's blessing however?
if the priest has said no, then the answer is no. if you truly feel called to it, pray and ask his blessing again.
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,999
2,486
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟558,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
if the priest has said no, then the answer is no. if you truly feel called to it, pray and ask his blessing again.

I never asked him the first time. I was just chatting with Fr. Deacon Nicholas and floated the idea by him as something perhaps the church could do and he initially liked the idea, but later came back and said "That's really not the Orthodox way."

But yes, I would not do anything without asking Fr. David first. When I wanted to repair the sign on our lawn, I asked him. I understand authority, and I don't have it!
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,563
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,467,220.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I never asked him the first time. I was just chatting with Fr. Deacon Nicholas and floated the idea by him as something perhaps the church could do and he initially liked the idea, but later came back and said "That's really not the Orthodox way."
ah, well then I would ask. plus, if it’s of God you will keep asking, no matter how often he says no.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ValeriyK2022

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2022
527
345
Kyiv region
✟56,600.00
Country
Ukraine
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
10 years ago I understood this when I heard the words of Archimandrite Joachim Parr:
"If you want to visit Manaus, you must first of all know what this place is and where it is located. Manaus is a city in Brazil, about a thousand kilometers from the source of the Amazon River. If you decide to go there, you need to have it's money, transportation, you have to know how to get there. If you want to be successful in this venture, it would be wise to find a map or someone who has already been there and find out what awaits you. Otherwise, you will spend a lot of time and energy wasted, you will lose money, and maybe you will never get there at all.
It's the same in the spiritual life: if you want to get somewhere, first you have to know what the spiritual life is. We must know where we are going and what we are doing, we must find someone who was already there - a spiritual leader."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ValeriyK2022

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2022
527
345
Kyiv region
✟56,600.00
Country
Ukraine
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
We say: let's go there, according to reviews it's good there, but I haven't been there myself and I don't know the way. According to other reviews, many got lost along the way and died. And people are interested in whether someone who has already been there and knows the way is coming with us. Who acquired the kingdom of heaven, which is within us (the kingdom of grace). If not, then no one wants to leave everything in order to get lost and die. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the pit.
 
Upvote 0