What happens . . . (The Ladder of Divine Ascent) ?

HTacianas

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Is there any official teaching, either in the Church per se, or within the writings of The Ladder, on what happens to those who are pulled off The Ladder?

Basically they end up in hell. But there is always the chance to repent and get back on the ladder.
 
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Light of the East

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Basically they end up in hell. But there is always the chance to repent and get back on the ladder.

So God, whose desire it is that all be saved, allows a defeated enemy, whom He destroyed at the Cross, to have access to His beloved creatures in order to have another chance to damn them to an eternity of unrelenting suffering?

Seems utterly logical to me.
 
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HTacianas

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So God, whose desire it is that all be saved, allows a defeated enemy, whom He destroyed at the Cross, to have access to His beloved creatures in order to have another chance to damn them to an eternity of unrelenting suffering?

Seems utterly logical to me.

Says so in the bible:

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

If you read the Ladder you'll see that monks are extremely hard on themselves. And one of their fears is the idea of falling away into condemnation. Just because someone becomes a Christian doesn't mean their future is guaranteed. The Ladder of Divine Ascent is a long book that explains all those thoughts. If I had my way about it, it would become part of the new testament.
 
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Light of the East

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Says so in the bible:

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

If you read the Ladder you'll see that monks are extremely hard on themselves. And one of their fears is the idea of falling away into condemnation. Just because someone becomes a Christian doesn't mean their future is guaranteed. The Ladder of Divine Ascent is a long book that explains all those thoughts. If I had my way about it, it would become part of the new testament.

So what you are saying is that the Bible infers or teaches that God created some men for no other purpose than to suffer eternally and He allows them to fall into eternal torment.

You appear, or at least infer to say, that the Ladder teaches that salvation is not a free and gratuitous gift of God, but rather only an opening of a door which we must strive to enter into. If we do not, then we shall be damned.

So how do I know, following this logic, that I have done enough? Have I prayed enough? Fasted enough? Is my heart really pure, or am I just kidding myself, to be shown the truth on Judgment Day and thrown into hell? Maybe one more prayer and I would have made it . . . buuuuuuuut, nope didn't pray enough, so I fell off the Ladder (with the help of my adversary) and now God shall judge me.

If this is the Gospel, that my salvation depends upon my striving as hard as I can, given my constant failures, my corrupted nature, and the ease with which I sin . . . it isn't very Good News at all.

In case you haven't figured it out by now . . . this is really bothering me, and I am trying to come to peace with these issues.
 
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Lukaris

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I believe St. John Climacus felt the average layperson was not bound to monastic requirements. Statement #22 on the first step says the layperson should keep to the Lord’s commandments like St. Paul says in Romans 13:1-14. Of course this is not to forbid reading the Ladder either.




21. Some people living carelessly in the world have asked me: ‘We have wives and are beset with social cares, and how can we lead the solitary life?’ I replied to them: ‘Do all the good you can; do not speak evil of anyone; do not steal from anyone; do not lie to anyone; do not be arrogant towards anyone; do not hate any one; be sure you go to church; be compassionate to the needy; do not offend anyone; do not wreck another man’s domestic happiness;3 and be content with what your own wives can give you. If you behave in this way you will not be far from the Kingdom of Heaven.’


 
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Light of the East

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I believe St. John Climacus felt the average layperson was not bound to monastic requirements. Statement #22 on the first step says the layperson should keep to the Lord’s commandments like St. Paul says in Romans 13:1-14. Of course this is not to forbid reading the Ladder either.




21. Some people living carelessly in the world have asked me: ‘We have wives and are beset with social cares, and how can we lead the solitary life?’ I replied to them: ‘Do all the good you can; do not speak evil of anyone; do not steal from anyone; do not lie to anyone; do not be arrogant towards anyone; do not hate any one; be sure you go to church; be compassionate to the needy; do not offend anyone; do not wreck another man’s domestic happiness;3 and be content with what your own wives can give you. If you behave in this way you will not be far from the Kingdom of Heaven.’



While that is certainly encouraging, it still misses the point I am raising, that salvation is not assured, but tentative. And worse, that God allows a defeated foe to attack His people to the point that some of them will lose salvation and be damned. What king, having defeated his foe, would turn around and open the gates of the castle to allow the enemy one more crack at destroying as many of his citizens as possible?
 
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HTacianas

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So what you are saying is that the Bible infers or teaches that God created some men for no other purpose than to suffer eternally and He allows them to fall into eternal torment.

You appear, or at least infer to say, that the Ladder teaches that salvation is not a free and gratuitous gift of God, but rather only an opening of a door which we must strive to enter into. If we do not, then we shall be damned.

So how do I know, following this logic, that I have done enough? Have I prayed enough? Fasted enough? Is my heart really pure, or am I just kidding myself, to be shown the truth on Judgment Day and thrown into hell? Maybe one more prayer and I would have made it . . . buuuuuuuut, nope didn't pray enough, so I fell off the Ladder (with the help of my adversary) and now God shall judge me.

If this is the Gospel, that my salvation depends upon my striving as hard as I can, given my constant failures, my corrupted nature, and the ease with which I sin . . . it isn't very Good News at all.

In case you haven't figured it out by now . . . this is really bothering me, and I am trying to come to peace with these issues.

Probably what's missing in this discussion is the idea of theosis. As @Lukaris rightfully said, a layman -like myself- need only keep the commandments, and I would add to that, do as much good as you can. But while monks are striving for theosis in this life and fear falling away, a layman can also fall away. Any layman can simply one day give up and start some Ponzi scheme to steal from others or become a serial burglar. It's things like that that lead to condemnation for a layman, and yes, it can happen. There is no checklist of how much you need to do.

Salvation is in fact a free gift, but the free gift is a pass on all previous sins. Once one is baptized and those past sins are forgiven, one is expected to live a life worthy of it. And I constantly live with the same thoughts you do. Have I done anything, have I not done some thing or another. But remember that there is always room for repentance from wrong, and even repentance from not doing right.
 
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ArmyMatt

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What king, having defeated his foe, would turn around and open the gates of the castle to allow the enemy one more crack at destroying as many of his citizens as possible?
none, but the King doesn’t stop His citizens from trying to leap the walls to join the defeated foe.
 
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zippy2006

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While that is certainly encouraging, it still misses the point I am raising, that salvation is not assured, but tentative. And worse, that God allows a defeated foe to attack His people to the point that some of them will lose salvation and be damned.
It seems like you might be asking the question, "How is it that Hell can exist?" Or, "How is it that anyone can go to Hell?" Or am I misinterpreting?
 
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Light of the East

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none, but the King doesn’t stop His citizens from trying to leap the walls to join the defeated foe.

Dear Father - with all due respect to you, you miss the entire analogy. There are no walls, there is no protection from the enemy. The enemy is allowed to wander about freely and attack the citizenry freely. By subterfuge, false teachings, temptation, attacks on the weaknesses of the citizens, he is allowed to destroy them.

If there were walls, then your analogy would stand. But that is not the case.
 
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Light of the East

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It seems like you might be asking the question, "How is it that Hell can exist?" Or, "How is it that anyone can go to Hell?" Or am I misinterpreting?

Hell is a big part of this distress to me. But allow me to clarify something.

In answer to your first question "How is it that hell can exist?" I defer to Orthodox thinking on this matter. Hell, according to the Church and the Fathers, is the love of God experienced as torment by the wicked. I have no problem with this, and I actually had a very miniscule taste of this myself many years ago.

I was visiting a monastery, attempting to discern if I was called to that life, my wife having passed away a year earlier. On the last night there, I had a sudden and unexpected inner revelation. No voices, no lights, just searing and painful truth. In my mind's eye, I saw my wife and how miserably I had treated her over the many years of our marriage. As we drifted apart (because I was a jerk) I failed to show love to her. A simple thing, like going upstairs and getting off the fool computer, sitting down with her in her illness, and watching TV with her, would have been the loving thing to do. The deep knowledge of this failure and my utter self-centeredness caused me intense pain, and I do not exaggerate to say that it felt like a fire in my mind as the truth bore down on me. I had always thought of myself as a good Christian because I kept the rules. I was confronted with the truth, and it burned like fire! I spent the night weeping and begging God to forgive me.

Now multiply that by a couple of trillion. That's hell. And every sinner will face this upon death. All pretense and lies will be stripped away in the presence of He who is Truth. The same truth and love that the repentant will experience as bliss will torment the wicked. It is both just of God and what Orthodoxy teaches.

What I wrestle with is the idea of never-ending torment in a place where demons beat up on you and pour hot lead up your anus for your sins. You know, the popular Roman Catholic and Protestant view of hell which got wings during the Medieval epoch. This is what I am expected to believe, that God endorses this, created this, throws people into it (according to some I have read) and the redeemed sit and laugh at the burning torments of the wicked, a al Tertullian and Thomas Aquinas. There is a huge consensus in the Christian world that this is really true, and to question it brings forth all manner of name-calling from those who believe in it.

As for the second question you asked, if an eternal burning hell is true (which, again, I am told that I must believe that this hell is eternal) then I have a real problem with a God who would not be doing everything possible to keep men and women from going there. Yes, there is the Cross. That is the victory, and we sing the Paschal hymn, ". . . by death He trampled death." But to allow that defeated enemy access to souls, when the consequence is never-ending agony, strikes me in a bad way.

This is why The Ladder and other writings strike me in a bad way. Writers speak about souls falling off the ladder with an almost casual I-Really-Don't-Care" attitude, as if "Well, I got my salvation. Too bad for everyone else who couldn't keep from falling off the ladder." And I am sensitive to this because A.) my own sins. I keep the Confessional nice and warm, but like it says in the prayers of repentance in our Orthodox Prayer Book, ". . . hardly an hour passes, and I do the same things again." This makes me wonder if I am just a clown who is fooling himself and my true state, unknown to me, invites the judgment of God and His wrath. You really have no idea how this bothers me. I try to focus on Christ, the only one who loves mankind, and the Cross and His beauty, but these thoughts are a constant annoyance to me. Couple them with my failures as a Christian, and it is a huge problem to me.

And B.) I have children (and friends) who want nothing to do with Christ. People I care about, who, if an eternal, burning fire of God's wrath is really true, will most likely be there forever.

In closing, let me say that I do not wish to be anything other than a good, obedient Orthodox Christian who trusts in and obeys what the Church teaches. Just reading this post should convince me and anyone else that only in obedience to the Church, as opposed to our confused and darkened minds, is there both safety and salvation. I must trust what the Church teaches and what the Fathers have taught, but it is hard to ignore the reality of what an eternity in God's displeasure means. Everyone of us struggles with a particular weak spot in our faith. This is mine.
 
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Light of the East

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THIS makes more sense to me:

Maximus the Confessor, 7th century:

God allows the demons to fight against us for five reasons. The first reason is, by fighting us and us against them, we acquire the discernment of virtue and evil. Secondly, to acquire virtue by struggle and effort, and thus to keep it firmly and surely. Thirdly, not to fall into pride, while making progress in virtue, but to learn to be humble. Fourthly, after we have come to know evil with our suffering, to hate it completely. Fifthly, the most important reason: after we have achieved passionlessness, not to forget our own weakness, nor the strength of the One who helped us.

Christ and St. Paul stated that we will be rewarded in the next life according to what we have done in this life. How then, could it be known who is worthy of what rewards unless there were contests of the faith for us? Think of it. Certainly, the monks of Athos will have much greater treasures and rewards in heaven than someone like me, who is spiritually lazy and a slacker. This is only fair and just.
 
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ArmyMatt

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If there were walls, then your analogy would stand. But that is not the case.
you spoke of enemy at the gates. there are no gates if there are no walls. it’s your analogy.
 
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ArmyMatt

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What I wrestle with is the idea of never-ending torment in a place where demons beat up on you and pour hot lead up your anus for your sins. You know, the popular Roman Catholic and Protestant view of hell which got wings during the Medieval epoch. This is what I am expected to believe, that God endorses this, created this, throws people into it (according to some I have read) and the redeemed sit and laugh at the burning torments of the wicked, a al Tertullian and Thomas Aquinas.
why do you wrestle with a vision of hell we reject?
As for the second question you asked, if an eternal burning hell is true (which, again, I am told that I must believe that this hell is eternal) then I have a real problem with a God who would not be doing everything possible to keep men and women from going there. Yes, there is the Cross. That is the victory, and we sing the Paschal hymn, ". . . by death He trampled death." But to allow that defeated enemy access to souls, when the consequence is never-ending agony, strikes me in a bad way.
what if the human person would rather follow the defeated foe into his eternal defeat? I mean, what more do you expect God to do to save man?
 
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why do you wrestle with a vision of hell we reject?

From Rev. Father George Konstantopoulos:

For Orthodox Christians, the reality of Hell is as certain as that of Heaven. Our Lord Himself on many occasions spoke of those men whom, because they did not obey His Commandments, He will send "INTO THE EVERLASTING FIRE PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS" (Matthew 25:41). In one of His Parables, He gives the vivid example of the rich man who, condemned to hell because of his unrighteous deeds in this life, looks up to Paradise which he has lost, and begs the Patriarch Abraham there to allow Lazarus, the beggar whom he disdained while alive, to come and "DIP THE TIP OF HIS FINGER IN WATER AND COOL MY TONGUE; FOR I AM TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME." But Abraham replies that "BETWEEN US AND YOU THERE IS A GREAT GULF FIXED," and there IS NO CONTACT BETWEEN THE SAVED AND THE DAMNED (Luke 16:25-26).

In Orthodox Christian literature visions of Hell are as common as visions of Heaven, occur more commonly to ordinary sinners than to Saints, and their purpose is always clear. Saint Gregory in his Dialogues states: "In His unbounded mercy, the Good God ALLOWS some souls to return to their bodies shortly after death so that the sight of Hell might, at last, teach them to fear the Eternal punishments in which words alone could not make them believe." Saint Gregory then describes several experiences of Hell and tells of the impression they produced on the beholders. Thus, a certain Spanish hermit Peter died and saw "hell with all its torments and countless pools of fire." On returning to life, Peter described what he had seen, "but even had he kept silent, his penitential fasts and night watches would have been eloquent witnesses to his terrifying visit to Hell and his deept fear of its dreadful torments. God had shown Himself most merciful by not allowing him to die in this experience with death."


From the OCA Website "On Heaven and Hell."

For those who love the Lord, His Presence will be infinite joy, paradise and eternal life. For those who hate the Lord, the same Presence will be infinite torture, hell and eternal death. The reality for both the saved and the damned will be exactly the same when Christ “comes in glory, and all angels with Him,” so that “God may be all in all” (1 Cor 15–28). Those who have God as their “all” within this life will finally have divine fulfillment and life. For those whose “all” is themselves and this world, the “all” of God will be their torture, their punishment and their death. And theirs will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Mt 8.21, et al.).

So, dear Father, putting aside the use of all hyperbole and imagery, whether true or false, the fact remains that it is still unrelenting, unending torture, whether it is the fire of Roman Catholic Medieval torture or the fire of Orthodoxy, the unending presence of God's love which torments, it is still . . . torture.

Now, leaving this behind, back to the original proposition of the OP, to fail to succeed in the Christian life is to enter into that state of not enjoying Christ's love. This is the thing that bothers me. When can I be sure that I have done enough, done it with the right attitude of heart, done it to God's glory, etc? How many times have I struggled to love God with all my heart, to put aside vainglory, to pray fervently and with compunction, to love my enemies, to bless instead of cursing them? If these dear monks, whose lives are such an example to us, can die saying in truth "I do not know if I have even begun to repent?" Well, oh my? What of me?

I think this whole struggle might be filed under the heading of "Scrupulosity." Also, a real struggle with the sin of pride, which refuses to trust God implicitly. I am going to mention this to Fr. David during my next confession. God is good -- GOOD -- and when the devil tempts me to despair, I need to remind him of this rather than listen to his lies.

That really is all I should remember and take to heart. God is good.

I think this thread should end. I've said enough. Pray for me in my struggles.
 
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ArmyMatt

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So, dear Father, putting aside the use of all hyperbole and imagery, whether true or false, the fact remains that it is still unrelenting, unending torture, whether it is the fire of Roman Catholic Medieval torture or the fire of Orthodoxy, the unending presence of God's love which torments, it is still . . . torture.
right, but you brought up demons beating you up in hell as an issue we have, when we don’t believe that.
When can I be sure that I have done enough, done it with the right attitude of heart, done it to God's glory, etc?
when God tells you.
 
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ArseniusTheSilent

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So God, whose desire it is that all be saved, allows a defeated enemy, whom He destroyed at the Cross, to have access to His beloved creatures in order to have another chance to damn them to an eternity of unrelenting suffering?

Seems utterly logical to me.
We call it the living faith for a reason.

Everyone CAN be saved but not everyone CHOOSES to be saved. This is precisely why God gives us the free will to choose our path. Without it, it all devolves into Universalism, the belief that everyone is saved, or other heresies which are increasingly common in the progressive Protestant sects in particular these days. Where is the impetus, given our sinful nature, to live a pious and devout life if we know we will all go to heaven upon death? Why not just live a hedonisitc and degenerate life as the modern world encourages us to do? Virtue becomes watered down into irrelevancy without the consequences of failing to repent before our final breath.

LotE, if I may be so bold. I believe you are also struggling with the concept of moral progress based on your comments in the "Losing Our Salvation" thread you started. The belief that somehow if we work really hard then we are gradually earning our salvation through our own efforts. On the flipside, if we don't work hard enough then we are farther away from salvation than we were last week, last month or last year.

We are saved THROUGH God's grace and mercy despite our sinful nature (which we all share). This is why saints typically moved towards understanding their sinfulness far more intently and viscerally as they walk their path toward Christ. That is what the icon of the Ladder of Divine Ascent and the book itself depict. The icon clearly shows that it is Christ at the top accepting us with open arms but the struggle never ends until the moment we die. To our final breath, demons will be trying to pull us off the path. Be vigilant and never waver.

We are going to fall down over and over and over again. That is part of being human and our sinful nature. The way we get up is through the sacraments of the church, Liturgy, Confession, etc.. God loved us so much that he sent his only begotten son to us precisely to show us a path to salvation that keeps us from the eternal fire. He doesn't want us to end up there but allows us the free will to choose.
 
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