What happened to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

[Hoshiyya]

I view the Torah as a self-contained, self-extracting, divinely inspired and engineered, multidimensional unified compact blueprint archive of the truth of G-d, the universe, and everything, given to us as a gift on this side of the World to Come, to bring us into the World to Come - literally the person of Messiah who himself is this very Word.

Viewed in that light, I find anything outside of Torah to be rather mundane and simplified of what is already found in the Torah. The challenge is often is to find what is not that obvious but certified by the Spirit of G-d in other scriptures, in the Torah. When that is done... oh my...the insights one gleans as if looking at the source code of life itself.

I think every chapter is very rich, and with the right interpretation method or approach, one can speak on one chapter or one verse for hours, drawing tons of stuff from it. All of The Word is great, but we form some attachments here and there to specific authors and chapters. Personally, I have a lot of fond attachment to Genesis 3. It's a great chapter.

 

[Josephus]

"the light we lost, and will re-gain in the World to Come (technically the 8th Day, aka motzei Shabbat after the Millennium of Messiah) in the New Heaven and New Earth."

From NT it appears those resurrected to rule in the millennial age will be immortal, having "incorruptible bodies". To me it follows that they, in the 7th day, the "sabbath-millennium", will have that light. Or at least, I always visualize the resurrected saints as basically glowing or being shiny, etc. comparable conceptually to the transfigured Yeshua (Matt. 17).

Absolutely. Bright shiney administrators in the worldwide Kingdom of Messiah Yeshua. There is however indication that the celebration of that light will be in the New Earth, when sin and death are finally gone, and the reflection of the righteousness of Messiah on our souls is what we celebrate forever.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Absolutely. Bright shiney administrators in the worldwide Kingdom of Messiah Yeshua. There is however indication that the celebration of that light will be in the New Earth, when sin and death are finally gone, and the reflection of the righteousness of Messiah on our souls is what we celebrate forever.

Please don't misunderstand if I ask you to elaborate or clarify on this.

People who don't know me well sometimes think I am trying to argue with them in cases where I am not, and I want to again emphasize how interesting this is to me.

So the light is lost but regained before the 8th day, by some, at least ?
I am not trying to correct you here, just trying to make sense of what you said.
I was concerned with the term "regain", and am not quite sure what you mean by the term "celebration".

 

[Hoshiyya]

Were you referencing there being no more sun and moon in the post-millennial age, and hence this light is not just in the bodies of the saints (as in the millennial age) but will then be "in the air" ?

 

[Josephus]

Please don't misunderstand if I ask you to elaborate or clarify on this.

People who don't know me well sometimes think I am trying to argue with them in cases where I am not, and I want to again emphasize how interesting this is to me.

So the light is lost but regained before the 8th day, by some, at least ?
I am not trying to correct you here, just trying to make sense of what you said.
I was concerned with the term "regain", and am not quite sure what you mean by the term "celebration".

Re-gain, as in, Adam and Chava will regain what they lost. Not us. We never lost it, except to say we were part of them (in Adam's loins) on that day. And this happens during the millennium, the Shabbat, correct. This is what happens now during the weekly Shabbat, in that our souls are elevated during Shabbat, but it is on the Eighth Day, or motzei, that we see the light of the New Heavens and New Earth, like we see the light of the Havdalah candle, and this is reflected upon our elevated souls, making us shine even brighter - as if that's possible, but it's what I understand from the picture of Havdalah. The celebration I refer to is the Wedding Supper.

 

[Josephus]

Were you referencing there being no more sun and moon in the post-millennial age, and hence this light is not just in the bodies of the saints (as in the millennial age) but will then be "in the air" ?

The sun and moon will still exist post-millennium. But they will be dark bodies compared to the light that shines all around - the primordial light of Creation itself that has been hidden since Yom Echad.

 

[Hoshiyya]

The wedding of the post-millennium is truly something.
For two thousand years we're itching and scratching for the second coming,
then for a thousand years we'll be awaiting gog-and-magog's rebellion, the "second apocalypse" in a way, and an event almost worthy of being called the third coming, namely the coming of the New Jerusalem etc, worthy because of the anticipation leading up to it, and the fact that like the second coming, it follows a rebellion of the nations against God and Holy Ones. It is a truly epic, amazing plan God has laid out !

 

[Hoshiyya]

I usually prefer to use this terminology, as it is quicker to spell:

Pre-millennial age = 1st age
Millennial age = 2nd age
Post-millennial age = 3rd age.


Maybe this will be interesting to you, even if you might not fully agree.
There is a parable that says:

And again he said, "To what should I compare the kingdom of God? It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed in with three measures of flour until all of it was leavened." (Luke 19:20-21)

He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed in with three measures of flour until all of it was leavened." Jesus told the crowds all these things in parables; without a parable he told them nothing. This was to fulfill what had been spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth to speak in parables; I will proclaim what has been hidden from the foundation of the world." (Matthew 13:33-35)

A teaching I was taught says that the yeast (kingdom) works its way through the three ages, God having a particular group as focus in each age:

1st age - Firstborn Elect (Israelites, Scattered tribes, and true gentiles)
2nd age - Israel corporately (including those who didn't know they were Israelites)
3rd age - gentiles corporately

These three were then correlated to the three pilgrimage feasts:

Pesach - 1st age - blood for the firstborn
Shavu'ot - 2nd age - giving of Torah to corporate Israel
Sukkot - 3rd age - sacrificing 70 bulls for all the nations

 

[Josephus]

Interesting. and agreed.

 

[Lulav]

A tradition says the tree of knowledge of good and evil was a grapevine, which is very symbolically interesting.

To abridge the traditional and apochryphal material I have read, each type of plant had its own ruling angel, and the angel of the grapevine was the one we now call the Satan. Michael, incidentally, was the angel of the olivet.

The grapevine somehow survived the flood, the same way the olivet did (the same branch from which the bird retrieved the olive branch to show to Noah). So the genetic relatives of the tree of knowledge of good and evil still exist today.

This becomes symbolically interesting relative to Noah, who re-plants the vine after the flood, and of course even more symbolically interesting relative to Yeshua using wine (from the grapevine) as his symbol of salvation. Hence the grapevine in a sense is the cause of the fall of man, and also his way back to God.

Interesting, I have not heard of this before. However etymologically there is a problem. Both of them are trees, 'etz' and vine is 'gephen'.

However that part about the vine made me think of something else. Some have said the Tree of life is the pomegranate and the seeds represent the 613 laws. I've heard of many different trees it could have been but never thought of this before.

What if they both looked alike?

We have to assume that the L-RD showed Adam these two trees and which one not to eat of. But was Eve shown? Or was she deceived because they looked alike and she didn't know the difference?


Genesis 2:9 8 The L-RD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. 9 Out of the ground the L-RD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Now look at what Eva saw:

6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

Were they the same but different?

Could it be like the tares and wheat?

Yeshua said in one of the gospels that he was the TRUE vine, meaning there is a FALSE vine.

I think this carries over in the plant and animal kingdoms too.

There are true plants of a species and then there are look-alikes that if you don't know the real thing you could be poisoned and die. Isn't that what happened in the Garden more or less? Hemlock for instance can be mistaken for parsley.

Think about the snake world.

Which snake is poisonous? Which one is harmless?

The L-RD speaking of the harlot Israel

21"Yet I planted you a choice vine, A completely faithful seed. How then have you turned yourself before Me Into the degenerate shoots of a foreign vine?

The Greek word translated 'true' means, genuine, True inside and out.

 

[Lulav]

Thanks for posting !
Certainly very interesting to read.

I see your reference to almonds and pomegranates relates to the staff of Aaron and the bells of the high priest.

So correct me if I am misunderstanding of your view: you believe there was a physical tree, representing Torah, that bore almonds and pomegranates (or fruits resembling almonds and pomegranates).

I did not see his post right away so replied to yours above it.

I'm thinking of the very detailed description of the Menorah and how it was to have leaves and buds of the almond on it. The nut of the almond is the seed and Aaron's rod buds almonds and leaves and fruit.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Interesting, I have not heard of this before. However etymologically there is a problem. Both of them are trees, 'etz' and vine is 'gephen'.

However that part about the vine made me think of something else. Some have said the Tree of life is the pomegranate and the seeds represent the 613 laws. I've heard of many different trees it could have been but never thought of this before.

What if they both looked alike?

We have to assume that the L-RD showed Adam these two trees and which one not to eat of. But was Eve shown? Or was she deceived because they looked alike and she didn't know the difference?


Genesis 2:9 8 The L-RD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. 9 Out of the ground the L-RD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Now look at what Eva saw:

6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

Were they the same but different?

Could it be like the tares and wheat?

Yeshua said in one of the gospels that he was the TRUE vine, meaning there is a FALSE vine.

I think this carries over in the plant and animal kingdoms too.

There are true plants of a species and then there are look-alikes that if you don't know the real thing you could be poisoned and die. Isn't that what happened in the Garden more or less? Hemlock for instance can be mistaken for parsley.

Think about the snake world.

Which snake is poisonous? Which one is harmless?

The L-RD speaking of the harlot Israel

21"Yet I planted you a choice vine, A completely faithful seed. How then have you turned yourself before Me Into the degenerate shoots of a foreign vine?

The Greek word translated 'true' means, genuine, True inside and out.

I'm guessing the one with yellow on it is the poisonous one, but I don't know. The other one looks aquatic, which if true would indicate it is less likely to be poisonois, I think.
I'd stay away from both.

I think the further back in time you go, the more meaning each word has. The further forward in time you go, each word becomes more specific, and the vocabulary increases to include all these specific words. But in the past, I think a word like Eṣ could have a broader meaning. Like Flora today means flower, but in the past it meant anything that grew or at least anything that flowered, including flowering trees. That broader meaning is still retained today in some cases, like when we speak of "flora and fauna". Fauna today has been reduced to "fawn", a young deer, but in the past it apparently could be used to indicate all the animals.

In any case this tradition can be found in Jerahmeel and Josippon as I recall, which are basically compendiums of a lot of Rabbinical / oral lore. Highly recommended reading.

We'll know the truth when we're resurrected, I guess.

 

[Lulav]

ACtually they both have red, black and yellow on them, it is the quality of the photograph that makes one on the left pop more.

The adage to remember is if red and yellow touch that is the poisonous one, the other harmless because the black is dividing the yellow from the red. But they are often mistaken, the point I was trying to make is about the two trees being similar, if a vine, then a true vine and an imitation, like the tares and wheat.

It makes us realize that there are imitations and lookalikes, true and false this is why we must intimately know the tree of life, the Torah to determine the true from the false.

 

[Hoshiyya]

So are you saying the one to the left is the poisonous one ?
Because that's what I suggested.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Yeah I also mentioned a tradition that the trees were identical, but placed in opposite ends of the garden.
Glad you mentioned tares and wheat in that context, interesting correlation.
Tares are actually poisonous.

 

[Lulav]

So are you saying the one to the left is the poisonous one ?
Because that's what I suggested.

Yes, yes, the one on the left is the Coral Snake.

 

[pat34lee]

Now the question is, does it still exist on the earth today or do we only have 'tamer' versions of it but still capable of making that connection?

And why didn't G-d destroy that tree?

I think the tree and the angel guarding the entrance to Eden are still there. My guess would be somewhere in Antarctica.

I don't think either the TOK or the TOL could be destroyed without destroying everything else.

 

[Laureate]

When I consider how the tree of life bears twelve manner of fruit in their season, and how the fruit trees are also referred to as 'trees of life' I do not see any reason why hybrids of the tree of knowledge of good and evil wouldn't have evolved into a genre of trees, as trees are known to do.

What group of plants are commonly KNOWN to be Both (life saving)Good, and (deadly) Bad?

Many Medicinal plants exemplify the very concept of being good for you Only when one is Fallen short on their health, and it is Prescribed by one Legally qualified to do so;

Otherwise they are prohibited , with caution lables warning us of miss use, and their potential poisonous side effects, but when used unadvisedly they are just labled as bad drugs.

Because we know the leaves of the tree of life are medicinal, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil is poisonous, we also know the likelyhood that the antidote also lies within it's venom.

Thus the medicinal concept also aligns with what Hoshiyya said concerning it being a catlyst for the fall and rise of man, for there was no need for them to take medicine when they were healthy, but once it was taken, it also became necissary like snake venom which contains the natural antibodies for the antidote of a snake bite.

The psychotropic concept can not be ignored, some naturally occuring substances do simply inhance the senses (as mild doses of pure acid), or raise one's conscious level (as the smoking flax);

However we are not just talking about opening one's eyes to see what divine beings can see, we are also dealing with the Conception of Knowledge, and Awareness, which pertains to the perceptions received through the senses;

As oppossed to the Comprehension of Wisdom and Understanding how to Discern between Appropriate and Inappropriate;

Which all pertains to the trigonomic reasoning, weighing, deliberating, and decisions made by one's heart and mind, that they may be able to Respond צדיק 'appropriately' to the Knowledge that one may Receive.

Thus when Elohym said...
"Moreover your little ones, which you said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge בין Between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it." [Deuteronomy 1:39]

...he was saying, the undeveloped youth did not have their Cognitive Senses sharpened enough Yet to בין Discern Between the good and evil, for their bodies were Yet developing, and along with their developing tangible senses, their heart and minds spiritual cognative ability to Discern.

Showing that these two i.e. 'Knowledge' and 'Wisdom' are supposed to grow together based on the virtue that Elohym expected Wisdom of the adults who evidently Knew 'better' (which is merely represents a degree of good).

This also shows that בין i.e. 'Discernment, Understanding, and Wisdom' are the antidote for indiscrete Knowledge.

The parents were held accountable for being Old Enough to Know Better, to exercise Wisdom, to Discern Between what was appropriate or not, but failed to Do (as Paul so eloquently expressed with his own personal wrestlings) the things they would/should Do.

It is by this same qualification for mercy and forgiveness which Elohym had exhibited for the children of Israel, that Y'shua sought to qualify many adults, first by saying unto them, 'unless you be as a child...', and then saying unto the Father, '...forgive them for they (still) know not (exactly) what they do.'

 

[Laureate]

As Josephus excellently pointed out, the tree of knowledge of good and evil is more than likely a tree who's fruit bears no (viable) seeds, and it just so happens that neither עולים 'babes' of men or trees have viable reproductive seeds.

The concept of 'not ready yet' and 'Likeness of Us' seem to indicate that the tree was forbidden for an unspecified season, for it was the 'Let Us...' who created Us in Their image, and after Their likeness, yet Our eyes were not opened like Theirs Until we ate of the forbidden tree.

In essence, we were supposed to be like them, but was not as regards to this particular ability to see, thus suggesting that we, (as the organic beings that we are), were still in the process of developing, which would permit some characteristic traits to lie dormant until their season would come to blossom, and thus reveal that we were always Like them, even before we came into season.

The forbidden Knowledge evidently pertains to the Mysteries, and Secrets of the Kingdom hidden since the foundation of the world, which we were not yet ready to know about, for as we all know knowledge is like a dangerous tool which can be used for either Good or Bad.

In Noah's day, Elohym accredited our mischeiviousness unto our immature state, thus reaffirming the 'not ready' state of our being.

When we consider how 'the beginning and end are the same', and see how Genesis starts off with two particular trees, (which our own mother was unable to discern between), and Revelations ends with two identicle trees of Life, this reinforces the concept that the tree of knowledge of good and evil it self was also evolving, thus 'Not Ready', hence עול immature, unripe, don't touch.

We have good reason to believe that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the same in appearance as the tree of life, because Eve only recognized one tree being in the midst of the garden when there was two;

Plus she clearly mistook the tree of knowledge of good and evil for a tree whose fruit would make one Wise, which according to proverbs, ('Wisdom') is a tree of life.

So thus as the scriptures indicate, she was duped by her own disbelief that she and her husband were indeed created in the image and after the likeness of Elohym, or else she would have never been tempted to attain unto being like Elohym.

The only discernable thing between us in the garden and Elohym other than us being his microcosm, and He being our macrocosm, was the Wisdom that comes from a mature being.

I strongly suspect that the tree of life it self could easily be mistaken for a/the tree of knowledge of good and evil, as the tree of knowledge of good and evil appeared to be a tree of life, i.e., capable of making one wise.

I first suspected this when I meditated on the parable of tares, What is more noxious?
a) a child that appears to be noxious simply because it is in the process of developemental growth, (everyone knows how gross a precious עול babe can be.), or...

b) a son who stumbles over the appearance of his siblings (who are in a state of developemental growth) with hatred, and vexation.
Notwithstanding, I believe an actual (genre of) plant(s) are being reffered to here as well, for nicotine/vitamen B3 is commonly condemned and considered noxious;

Notwithstanding it is the primary Nutrient for battling Pelagra which is one of the worlds top three forms of Malnutrition due to improper processing of grain, (primarily corn), and a deficiency of the crucial nutrient nicotinic acid, aka Vitamen B3.

 

[Laureate]

Fundementaly, there are two primary types of Evil, עול 'immature', and רע '(spoiled) rotten' both are also biblically used to describe an inappropriate state of fruit;

Many immature trees (being עול/babes) will bear evolving fruit without viable seeds for three or four seasons.

The Evil mentioned concerning the tree of knowledge of good and evil is רע meaning, unfit, unsound, inappropriate, rotten, etc.

At first, I found this to be peculiar, thinking, the first problem would derive from עול the evils of immature babes, not רע the evils of spoiled fruit, juvinile adults who are past their time.

But when you consider how we were all in the loins of one, everything basically belonged to You, when you looked around there was no one else beside you the day You were told to have dominion over all the earth.

Basically, the rules of Existence [יהוה] changed when He decided to be fruitful and multiply microcosms with in His own being, for example the etiquette of sharing, cohabitation, etc., was/is never applicable to a recluse.

Thus certain things that are appropriate for a recluse being are totally inappropriate for beings destined to cohabitate together, thus those aspects of יהוה Ea'huah (existence) would naturally have to be outlawed, and not intended to inherit, thus a Good that is Evil in the form of רע i.e. 'no longer suitable'.

In the context of recognizing a tree by the fruit it bears, we can imagine, someone speaking a truth that is out of season, or not pertaining to the context, or twisted, otherwise missapplied, not wise, clearly we should avoid such, let alone swallow anything that comes from them.

But now imagine such a one with a personality, and attitude that could only come from one who is spoiled rotten, because their father owns everything, they can never be satisfied with what they have, because they are too preoccupied in trying to seek the Joy of receiving what they can Get;

Because they do not understand that Joy accompanies receiving, and Satifaction accompanies Having, they do not know what it means 'to appreciate', and they are for ever seeking Satisfaction from Receieving, which only provides Joy;

Thus their short lived joy often turns sad, and depressing, which quickly gravitates to ungrateful, which promotes frustration, and complaining, which is a state of hell for an eternal being;

Eventually, even the ungrateful gain a little sobering wisdom with age, yet it has a tendency to emplode with bitterness, and resentment any time they self reflect.