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What GOP Leaders deem wasteful in Senate stimulus bill

J

jamesrwright3

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Here is a better use of the "stimulus" money. Give it back to the American people and let them spend it however they want. It is our money, after all. I don't want the Big 3 to succeed unless they improve their business model. I want them to succeed because they are managing their company in a way that encourages real, long-term, actual success, i.e., they make a product that people want in a manner that is fiscally responsible. Until that happens, let them go the way of the dodo if they are incapable of changing.

Oh I agree the best thing would be to put the money into the hands of consumers/businesses..I was saying if they were going to spend the money, it would be better to invest it in areas such as manufacturing where the payoff could be greater in the long term as opposed to just moving dirt around.
I am not opposed to infrastructure spending..It should just not be the centerpiece of a stimulus package.
 
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Corey

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http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/02/gop.stimulus.worries/index.html

1. $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.

Hmm. Well...I think it's useful to bear in mind that it was Bush's department who did it. A grain of salt is required for all of the Bush administration's decision.

2. A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.

No. This is stupid.

3. $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.

Needed. The program has run out of money and not everyone has a converter box who needs one. The government has mandated the change to digital so it's fair for it to help alleviate the cost for consumers who can't afford a new TV.

4. $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).

Dunno...is it needed?

5. $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.
6. $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.

Maybe needed. Right now DHS is too spread out with no centralized administration.

7. $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.

Bearing in mind that saves money and fuel in the long run and encourages production of these vehicles.

8. $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.

Good idea.

9. $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.

Possible infrastructure?

10. $125 million for the Washington sewer system.

Infrastructure spending. This is good.

11. $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.

I'm not against this, but I'm a geek.

12. $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.

It is important.

13. $75 million for "smoking cessation activities."

Will save far more than is spent in the long run due to reductions in health care spending.

14. $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.

Education spending like this is almost always good.

15. $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.

Not a bad idea.

16. $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.

Will save far more than is spent in the long run due to reductions in health care spending. And it will help people in need.


All in all this is a pretty good list.
 
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jamesrwright3

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to help alleviate the cost for consumers who can't afford a new TV.

This is not paying for new TV's though..it's paying for converter boxes
I think we should just put the conversion on hold until things get b etter.
As long as the government can communicate with the people, the medium is satisfactory.



Education spending like this is almost always good.

All depends. If we are expanding usage and it will create a positive return on investment, then it may be worth it. If we are simply replacing "adequate" computers with new ones, then I can't justify it. Most computers even from 10 years ago can handle web, e-mail, word processing, etc.
I don't think people will be playing FPS in these labs..if they are, we shouldn't be paying for it.
 
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kermit

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All depends. If we are expanding usage and it will create a positive return on investment, then it may be worth it. If we are simply replacing "adequate" computers with new ones, then I can't justify it. Most computers even from 10 years ago can handle web, e-mail, word processing, etc.
I don't think people will be playing FPS in these labs..if they are, we shouldn't be paying for it.
I work for a company that has a mix of older and newer computers. A new desktop computer costs us about $500. The older ones (5+ years) cost far greater than that annually in help desk assistance and lost productivity. If you are paying a plant manager $90k per year to wait 10 minutes for his application open everyday that costs the company almost $1900/year. When you do a cost/benefit analysis it usually pretty easy to justify the coss even if the bigwigs get a bit of sticker shock at the grand total.
 
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jamesrwright3

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I work for a company that has a mix of older and newer computers. A new desktop computer costs us about $500. The older ones (5+ years) cost far greater than that annually in help desk assistance and lost productivity. If you are paying a plant manager $90k per year to wait 10 minutes for his application open everyday that costs the company almost $1900/year. When you do a cost/benefit analysis it usually pretty easy to justify the coss even if the bigwigs get a bit of sticker shock at the grand total.

I agree..certain areas it's good..However, for the areas that are outlined in the bill..community colleges..older PCs do the job..People are just checking e-mail, web surfing, or doing other non processor intensive tasks that don't require quad core machines.
 
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ScottBot

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Oh I agree the best thing would be to put the money into the hands of consumers/businesses..I was saying if they were going to spend the money, it would be better to invest it in areas such as manufacturing where the payoff could be greater in the long term as opposed to just moving dirt around.
I am not opposed to infrastructure spending..It should just not be the centerpiece of a stimulus package.
I agree, although I think that you could find more Constitutional merit with spending the money on viable and necessary infrastructure projects than on "business investment". The power of the Congress enables them to levy taxes for a legitimate debt, which the transportation infrastructure is certainly part of. I just don't like the idea of the government "investing" in the private sector, because once they get in, they will NEVER get out.
 
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kermit

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I agree..certain areas it's good..However, for the areas that are outlined in the bill..community colleges..older PCs do the job..People are just checking e-mail, web surfing, or doing other non processor intensive tasks that don't require quad core machines.
I don't know. It's been a while since I was in college and I wrote most of my papers in the computer lab. I thought most colleges today require that students have their own laptop. Community college might be different.
 
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DZoolander

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Cumulatively - all of those things together come out to be about 19.09 Billion...out of a package of what...800 billion?

So all of this fuss is over less than 2.5% of the package?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/02/gop.stimulus.worries/index.html

1. $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.

2. A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.

3. $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.

4. $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).

5. $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.

6. $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.

7. $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.

8. $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.

9. $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.

10. $125 million for the Washington sewer system.

11. $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.

12. $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.

13. $75 million for "smoking cessation activities."

14. $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.

15. $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.

16. $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.

17. $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.

18. $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.

19. $6 billion to turn federal buildings into "green" buildings.

20. $500 million for state and local fire stations.

21. $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.

22. $1.2 billion for "youth activities," including youth summer job programs.

23. $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.

24. $412 million for CDC buildings and property.

25. $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.

26. $160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.

27. $5.5 million for "energy efficiency initiatives" at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.

28. $850 million for Amtrak.

29. $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.

30. $75 million to construct a "security training" facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.

31. $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.

32. $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.


I am okay with 1 -4, 13, 16 coming out.
 
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kermit

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I agree, although I think that you could find more Constitutional merit with spending the money on viable and necessary infrastructure projects than on "business investment". The power of the Congress enables them to levy taxes for a legitimate debt, which the transportation infrastructure is certainly part of. I just don't like the idea of the government "investing" in the private sector, because once they get in, they will NEVER get out.
I think you and I are on the same page that it more constitutionally sound for government to spend on the public owned things rather than on private owned things.
 
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praying

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All depends. If we are expanding usage and it will create a positive return on investment, then it may be worth it. If we are simply replacing "adequate" computers with new ones, then I can't justify it. Most computers even from 10 years ago can handle web, e-mail, word processing, etc.
I don't think people will be playing FPS in these labs..if they are, we shouldn't be paying for it.
'

No they can't. the processing and more importantly the system memory is not sufficient to run today's software.
 
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DZoolander

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Actually, not to be pendantic or anything, but I think the benchmark 10 years ago was a Pentium 133 or 166 running Windows 98. Most software nowadays requires at least XP. Even office requires XP with a minimum processor speed of 500Mhz.

...and that's not even getting into what school computers really ought to be there for - which is to teach programming & development. It's important to me that students are taught skills that will make them viable in the workforce. If the computers aren't even able to handle the requirements for modern clerical software (which limits them to dead end jobs) - then there's little hope that they'd be sufficient for teaching modern development tools.

...like...Visual Studio requires at least XP Service Pack 2 - with a minimum of 1.6GHz processor (recommended 2.2 GHz or higher) - a gig of ram - etc.

I'd rather be training a bunch of high paid developers than scrape by with a bunch of obsolete computers that probably couldn't even run modern clerical software. Ya know?
 
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JoyJuice

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:eek: are you serious! That is the definition of a 'band aid cure' Our current crisis is the result of long term trends. We are doing nothing to fix those long term trends. We are encouraging more of the same behaviors that got us into this crisis - an economy based on financial speculation and consumption (consumer spending ) vs. productive capacity
There you go again. It is NOT a cure. It is just to keep us from further going down the toilet until we come out of the downturn. Yes there has to be some kind of adjustments to make amends for the dismal job numbers that we have seen for the last eight years under trickle down economics.

no. If i get another credit card (loan, Treasury bill, whatever) and spend it on more goods I am not increasing my productive capacity.
Productive capacity just means the capacity to produce goods and services. What means of payment is kind of irrelevant. Before home loan regulations were changed, solid home loans did increase productive capacity. I do understand what you're saying and in the long run we are leveraging the country through massive debt. Yet to me it's a matter of what the debt is for. I have no issue with a solid stimulus package instead of paying for a occupation of another country that will not provide us diddly squat for example. That debt far exceeds any stimulus package.
In fact, considering that most of the goods we buy are foreign made, we are in fact draining more wealth from our country. There might be a few retail stores and brokers that benefit from this short term but long term its just creating a bigger problem.
American companies divesting out of America and yet their CEO and shareholders reap the benefits of divesting. That is one of the problems why we are in a reccession. We have no real job creation and those service jobs we do create do not provide enough income to buy goods and service without the use of credit you speak about so much. That is conservative ideology, you should be proud.

Lets imagine we are a consumer in debt. Would you say the way to stimulate this person is to give them more money to spend? Or would it be better for them to cut back on expenses and either get a better job or work more?
We should reevaluate what we are spending our money on even if it is debt driven money. Job creation is the problem. What better job? Again, I have no issue curtailing those dead end adventures like stimulating oil companies while they are making record profits or getting out of that endless money pit in Iraq, and reinvesting in America and Americans. That goes for Government and those companies we provide tax breaks to take their business off shore.

Remember what Cheney said....."Reagan showed us that deficit spending works" to paraphrase.

I am beginning to get puzzled here, defict spending and maximizing shareholder investment are all conservative ideas, but the end results give you heartburn?

No the government is still trying to keep the high prices afloat they are trying to PREVENT the prices from dropping to where they SHOULD be. That's about as gimmicky as you can get.
Regulations have been changed. The average income in America around 30K placing them no where near the average cost of a home even after they are deflated back where they should be. The stimulus package may benefit credit and income worthy buyers through tax breaks, that's about it, but you still have to qualify under restored non gimmick regulations. Home ownership has and will decrease driving prices where they should be.
 
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JoyJuice

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The Democrats are, for the most part, responsible for creating the current economic mess. They've had absolute control over the legislative branch for over two years now and what has been the result? Does this so-called stimulus monstrosity really surprise anybody? I mean, comeon!
...of course. :o
 
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J

jamesrwright3

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Actually, not to be pendantic or anything, but I think the benchmark 10 years ago was a Pentium 133 or 166 running Windows 98. Most software nowadays requires at least XP. Even office requires XP with a minimum processor speed of 500Mhz.

...and that's not even getting into what school computers really ought to be there for - which is to teach programming & development. It's important to me that students are taught skills that will make them viable in the workforce. If the computers aren't even able to handle the requirements for modern clerical software (which limits them to dead end jobs) - then there's little hope that they'd be sufficient for teaching modern development tools.

...like...Visual Studio requires at least XP Service Pack 2 - with a minimum of 1.6GHz processor (recommended 2.2 GHz or higher) - a gig of ram - etc.

I'd rather be training a bunch of high paid developers than scrape by with a bunch of obsolete computers that probably couldn't even run modern clerical software. Ya know?

Actually I don't mean to be pedantic, but the Pentium 166 was back in 1995 or 96.

Back in 99, the PIII was released. It had speeds of up to 1.4 GHZ.
It ran programs decently fast. I am saying for most tasks, that type of processor speeds is all that is necessary, especially if video is decoded using some type of graphics chip. Sure if you are going to be using it for multimedia production, you would need something faster. However, for general information gathering, businesswork i.e. spreadsheets, word processors, etc, people don't need the top of the line.
 
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DZoolander

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Yeah - I think you're right. I think I got confused between target platforms back then - and development platforms. I'm in multimedia production - and tried to remember "What was I developing for back then" - and I think our baseline at that point was the 133/166 :)

So - my bad! Pardon the mistake.

But - I still stick to the idea that we ought to be expecting more from our students than to teach them basic "Office" type of software. I'd hope we'd be trying to produce more students capable of getting higher paying development type jobs (which necessitate somewhat more modern computers) - than chince out and just train for basic clerical work.

Ya know?
 
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praying

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Actually I don't mean to be pedantic, but the Pentium 166 was back in 1995 or 96.

Back in 99, the PIII was released. It had speeds of up to 1.4 GHZ.
It ran programs decently fast. I am saying for most tasks, that type of processor speeds is all that is necessary, especially if video is decoded using some type of graphics chip. Sure if you are going to be using it for multimedia production, you would need something faster. However, for general information gathering, businesswork i.e. spreadsheets, word processors, etc, people don't need the top of the line.


It ran 1999 software decently fast (which one might question depending on what you were doing), it would not run today's software.
 
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Zlex

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80% of jobs in America provided by small businesses.

Of 900 billion dollars in job stimulus, 1 billion aimed at small business.

Quite a mystery.

What % of lobbyist money is provided by small businesses?

Oh.

900 billion is being aimed primarily at those lobbying DC. special interests, same old same old.

As John Stossel pointed out, the current economic crisis is being used as an excuse to payoff contributors and lobbyists and call it 'a stimulus package.'

Who can't see that?

Wave the flag, save the day, and ... use this as an excuse to glom onto the nation's piggy bank and spend, spend, spend at tyhe CronyFest on the Potomac.
 
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iwanttobefree

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There you go again. It is NOT a cure. It is just to keep us from further going down the toilet until we come out of the downturn. Yes there has to be some kind of adjustments to make amends for the dismal job numbers that we have seen for the last eight years under trickle down economics.
First thing its not the last 8 years - its forty years of bad policies, and increasing corruption and influence of wall street. Its called the 'financialization' the economy. Read up on the subject and, Please, start looking at the problem like an adult not someone on the playground saying 'nah nah nah its your fault!'. Handing out cheap mortgages started under Clinton. Obama in fact was one of the lawyers who sued citibank about 'red lined' lending - he and democrats pressured banks to loan to under qualified minorities because it was 'racist' that they were turned down more often. . In order to pump up the economy Rubin in the treasury and the Fed advocated these easy money policies in the 90s. It was all about making the numbers look good. There's plenty of blame and guilt on both sides of the washington establishment.

Spending borrowed money will not keep us from going down the 'toliet' 'until we come out of' the downturn, it will further hasten our decline because its spending borrowed money (thus putting us more in debt) on things that will not create any significant benefit.

HOW DO YOU expect to come out of this 'downturn' ? Another real estate 'boom'? Some Edison will invent a whole new industry because we're america and we're the best? People are beginning to see through the charade.

wake up, face reality:
“We’re certainly in the midst of a once-in-a-lifetime set of economic conditions. The perspective I would bring is not one of recession. Rather, the economy is resetting to lower level of business and consumer spending based largely on the reduced leverage in economy,” said Chief Executive Steve Ballmer during a conference call. For consumers, that may mean less discretionary income to spend on a second or third home computer, he said.
http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/23/ballmer-gets-it/

That is conservative ideology, you should be proud.
Thomas Friedman (liberal) advocates globalization. Lou Dobbs (conservative) doesn't. Globalization or these sort of globalist policies are embraced by both sides of the aisle. Hillary expressed some remorse about NAFTA, good for her. a little late though. It must be easy, simple and fun to just label all ideas you don't like 'conservative' . There are conservatives, who for conservative reasons are against any sort of draft. There are liberals, for liberal reasons, who are for it. There are of course conservatives for the draft and liberals against the draft as well.

I am beginning to get puzzled here, defict spending and maximizing shareholder investment are all conservative ideas, but the end results give you heartburn?
Stop labeling. that would be a good start. Libertarians or Fiscal conservatives support deficiet spending? What makes you assume I support or like or agree with Cheney? Or George Bush ?

Regulations have been changed. The average income in America around 30K placing them no where near the average cost of a home even after they are deflated back where they should be. ..... Home ownership has and will decrease driving prices where they should be.
Where they 'should be' is the traditional home price to income ratio.

as long as there is (again) an artificial lending standard, home prices will be inflated. If they go back to where they should be America would lose massive net (fake) wealth and there will be people who will have to declare bankruptcy or simple walk away from their mortgages.

On the other hand, handing out mortgages through or with the assistance of the government is politically and financially lucrative and popular. it will continue, perhaps even accelerate. But as long as you assist people in buying homes they otherwise can't afford, it will become more expensive for people who can afford homes to buy them.
 
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fated

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900 Billion dollars is a lot of money. When I look at the list, and I see thinks like money for FBI employees... that doesn't create jobs, it probably won't even increase FBI employee spending. If I was insured that all that money would go to the low men on the totem pole, then I could see if that was stimulus, but, barring that, there is no reason to assume its a good move.

This happens repeatedly in this bill. The government could pay 18 million people $50,000. This is a problem that plagues the bill, inefficient job creation, in measures meant to create jobs.

That said, I'm not a party line conservative on economic matters, and I can understand many things in the bill that might be inefficient. However, I object to the US government creating temporary spending to help the economy. That will not get people to spend money. People who are afraid of the future will not spend. So, when they blitz infrastructure projects en masse, there is no reason to believe spending will actually increase appreciably. I believe that the government has a definite place in infrastructure spending, and I would recommend a plan to get the spending moved down to the state level as soon as possible, but, it needs to be done in a sustainable way.

So, when the Republicans say the bill is too big and the spending is outrageous, inefficient, or won't work, they are probably right.

Democrats typically believe that anyone who disagrees with them are wrong and can't be worked with. Sorry, Harry, I have to admit that we have a problem here, that doesn't fall squarely on either party, but is a general inability to work together for various reasons.

I want the government to get out of the mortgage business. I don't want the government, at whatever level is practical, to get out of the infrastructure business.
 
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ScottBot

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First thing its not the last 8 years - its forty years of bad policies, and increasing corruption and influence of wall street. Its called the 'financialization' the economy. Read up on the subject and, Please, start looking at the problem like an adult not someone on the playground saying 'nah nah nah its your fault!'. Handing out cheap mortgages started under Clinton. Obama in fact was one of the lawyers who sued citibank about 'red lined' lending. In order the pump up the economy Rubin in the treasury and the Fed advocated these easy money policies in the 90s. It was all about making the numbers look good. There's plenty of blame and guilt on both sides of the washington establishment.

Spending borrowed money will not keep us from going down the 'toliet' 'until we come out of' the downturn, it will further hasten our decline because its spending borrowed money (thus putting us more in debt) on things that will not create any significant benefit.

HOW DO YOU expect to come out of this 'downturn' ? Another real estate 'boom'? Some Edison will invent a whole new industry because we're america and we're the best? People are beginning to see through the charade.

wake up, face reality:

http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/23/ballmer-gets-it/


Thomas Friedman (liberal) advocates globalization. Lou Dobbs (conservative) doesn't. Globalization or these sort of globalist policies are embraced by both sides of the aisle. Hillary expressed some remorse about NAFTA, good for her. a little late though. It must be easy, simple and fun to just label all ideas you don't like 'conservative' . There are conservatives, who for conservative reasons are against any sort of draft. There are liberals, for liberal reasons, who are for it. There are of course conservatives for the draft and liberals against the draft as well.


Stop labeling. that would be a good start. Libertarians or Fiscal conservatives support deficiet spending? What makes you assume I support or like or agree with Cheney? Or George Bush ?


Where they 'should be' is the traditional home price to income ratio.

as long as there is (again) an artificial lending standard, home prices will be inflated. If they go back to where they should be America would lose massive net (fake) wealth and there will be people who will have to declare bankruptcy and/or

On the other hand, handing out mortgages through or with the assistance of the government is politically and financially lucrative and popular. it will continue, perhaps even accelerate. But as long as you assist people in buying homes they otherwise can't afford, it will become more expensive for people who can afford homes to buy them.
All I can say is wow. Great post. :thumbsup:
 
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