What GOP Leaders deem wasteful in Senate stimulus bill

[iwanttobefree]

Truly, look at this list.
How many will save or produce jobs? .

actually they might even end up costing jobs and long term productive capacity because they will be 'stimulating' the wrong parts of the economy and encouraging non productive behavior.

 

[JoyJuice]

actually they might even end up costing jobs and long term productive capacity because they will be 'stimulating' the wrong parts of the economy and encouraging non productive behavior.

...how so?

 

[iwanttobefree]

...how so?

two reasons.
First, The current plan is to encourage the same wrong headed principles that got us in this mess in the first place. They are literally trying to encourage more consumer spending when we are a nation of debt spenders - we have a 'negative' savings rate and most Americans are in heavy consumer debt - this of course keeps bankers and money lenders happy but its not good for long term wealth. Second, the stimulus is by definition not profitable or productive, so in order to get the money from somewhere we have to a. go into debt b. ultimately lean heavier on productive parts of the economy, which means those productive parts will have less captial to expand productive capacity.

In short the goal of the stimulus is to re-ignite consumer spending and thus, financial speculation (rising home prices based on...well, what?) not productive capacity.

We cannot borrow and spend our way out of what we borrowed and spent our way into.

 

[praying]

How is this stimulus:

FOOD AND NUTRITION SERVICE
19 CHILD NUTRITION PROGRAMS
20 For additional amount for the Richard B. Russell
21 National School Lunch Act (42 U.S.C. 1751 et. seq.), ex22
cept section 21, and the Child Nutrition Act of 1966 (42
23 U.S.C. 1771 et. seq.), except sections 17 and 21,
24 $198,000,000, to remain available until September 30,
25 2010, to carry out a grant program for National School
26 Lunch Program equipment assistance:

 

[JoyJuice]

two reasons.
First, The current plan is to encourage the same wrong headed principles that got us in this mess in the first place. They are literally trying to encourage more consumer spending when we are a nation of debt spenders - we have a 'negative' savings rate and most Americans are in heavy consumer debt - this of course keeps bankers and money lenders happy but its not good for long term wealth.

I do understand it is money we'll have to borrow, but isn't the whole idea of a short term stimulus which really has nothing to do with long term wealth?

Second, the stimulus is by definition not profitable or productive, so in order to get the money from somewhere we have to a. go into debt b.

I think the biggest issue here is you are arguing against something that is is not meant to do. Anything which involves buying stuff and paying wages or otherwise putting money into the pockets of people is stimulus.

ultimately lean heavier on productive parts of the economy, which means those productive parts will have less captial to expand productive capacity.

I have not a clue what you mean here. To me those productive parts of the economy will also benefit from a stimilating effect on the economy. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.

In short the goal of the stimulus is to re-ignite consumer spending and thus, financial speculation (rising home prices based on...well, what?) not productive capacity.

Productive capacities is what the stimulus is trying to keep afloat, not persay give a full born rise.

We cannot borrow and spend our way out of what we borrowed and spent our way into. It's not simply the borrowing, but making the adjustments

Agreed, that is why such things as gimmick mortgage loans are gone by the way side.

 

[iwanttobefree]

I do understand it is money we'll have to borrow, but isn't the whole idea a short term stimulus which really has nothing to do with long term wealth?

are you serious! That is the definition of a 'band aid cure' Our current crisis is the result of long term trends. We are doing nothing to fix those long term trends. We are encouraging more of the same behaviors that got us into this crisis - an economy based on financial speculation and consumption (consumer spending ) vs. productive capacity

Anything which involves buying stuff and paying wages or otherwise putting money into the pockets of people is stimulus.

no. If i get another credit card (loan, Treasury bill, whatever) and spend it on more goods I am not increasing my productive capacity. In fact, considering that most of the goods we buy are foreign made, we are in fact draining more wealth from our country. There might be a few retail stores and brokers that benefit from this short term but long term its just creating a bigger problem.

Lets imagine we are a consumer in debt. Would you say the way to stimulate this person is to give them more money to spend? Or would it be better for them to cut back on expenses and either get a better job or work more?

The average american consumer should be saving, not spending. The government is trying to encourage more spending and more debt.

Agreed, that is why such things gimmick mortgage loans are gone by the way side.

No the government is still trying to keep the high prices afloat they are trying to PREVENT the prices from dropping to where they SHOULD be. That's about as gimmicky as you can get.

 

[platzapS]

The items in question make up 2% of the whole bill, and many of them are desperately needed upgrades to infrastructure. Things like making government buildings more energy-efficient will even save money in the future. I hope this passes.

 

[ScottBot]

are you serious! That is the definition of a 'band aid cure' Our current crisis is the result of long term trends. We are doing nothing to fix those long term trends. We are encouraging more of the same behaviors that got us into this crisis - an economy based on financial speculation and consumption (consumer spending ) vs. productive capacity


no. If i get another credit card (loan, Treasury bill, whatever) and spend it on more goods I am not increasing my productive capacity. In fact, considering that most of the goods we buy are foreign made, we are in fact draining more wealth from our country. There might be a few retail stores and brokers that benefit from this short term but long term its just creating a bigger problem.

Lets imagine we are a consumer in debt. Would you say the way to stimulate this person is to give them more money to spend? Or would it be better for them to cut back on expenses and either get a better job or work more?

No the government is still trying to keep the high prices afloat they are trying to PREVENT the prices from dropping to where they SHOULD be. That's about as gimmicky as you can get.

So what you are saying is that the government should get the heck out of the way and let the market fix itself? But how are the politicians going to keep themselves in office if they don't funnel taxpayer dollars to artificially inflate or sustain the market? Politicians have a right to be in office you know.

 

[kermit]

So what you are saying is that the government should get the heck out of the way and let the market fix itself? But how are the politicians going to keep themselves in office if they don't funnel taxpayer dollars to artificially inflate or sustain the market? Politicians have a right to be in office you know.

Silly politicians wanting money to fix broken bridges and such.

 

[praying]

I want to find a listing of the bill that has all the legal mumbo jumbo stripped out so I can see exactly what is being put forth. The bill in PDF form is 736 pages long War and Peace

 

[ScottBot]

Silly politicians wanting money to fix broken bridges and such.

I actually believe that infrastructure repair is a legitimate expense. The problem is that we were told that the "stimulous Plan" would be comprised of a majority of this type of work, instead we get hogzilla fattened up with money for buying hybrid cars for federal employees, etc....

 

[iwanttobefree]

The items in question make up 2% of the whole bill, and many of them are desperately needed upgrades to infrastructure. .

question is how did the infrastructure of the 'greatest power on earth' get to such a state?

Unfortunately its all going to turn into a national version of Boston's Big Dig; people and politicians skimming money and nothing getting done or extremely shoddy quality.

at this point I think we're too corrupt an too broken to really change, despite the slogan of the current president.

 

[ScottBot]

I want to find a listing of the bill that has all the legal mumbo jumbo stripped out so I can see exactly what is being put forth. The bill in PDF form is 736 pages long War and Peace

I agree. I actually wish that congress worked like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6DORwBzuA

 

[jamesrwright3]

I actually believe that infrastructure repair is a legitimate expense. The problem is that we were told that the "stimulous Plan" would be comprised of a majority of this type of work, instead we get hogzilla fattened up with money for buying hybrid cars for federal employees, etc....

Actually I think buying hybrids or buying new cars from the BIG 3 would be better for our long term stimulus than other projects. It would give the Big 3 the capital to help improve their product line for the long term and put people to work.

 

[ScottBot]

question is how did the infrastructure of the 'greatest power on earth' get to such a state?

Unfortunately its all going to turn into a national version of Boston's Big Dig; people and politicians skimming money and nothing getting done or extremely shoddy quality.

at this point I think we're too corrupt an too broken to really change, despite the slogan of the current president.

You mean like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM

 

[praying]

Actually I think buying hybrids or buying new cars from the BIG 3 would be better for our long term stimulus than other projects. It would give the Big 3 the capital to help improve their product line for the long term and put people to work.

And that would have far reaching affects, in terms of other industries reaping the benefits of it.

 

[HollandScotts]

Furthermore, why are we even listening to the Republicans on this issue, anyway? They had their chance and look at where we are. They need to shut up, sit down, and let someone at least try to clean up their mess.

I guess it's easier to blame the republicans than accept that your own party played a significant hand in the economic crisis.

 

[IzzyPop]

I guess it's easier to blame the republicans than accept that your own party played a significant hand in the economic crisis.

Hmmmm... Since the last time I donated to any party was back in 1998 to the GOP, it looks like I am doing just that, no?

 

[ScottBot]

Actually I think buying hybrids or buying new cars from the BIG 3 would be better for our long term stimulus than other projects. It would give the Big 3 the capital to help improve their product line for the long term and put people to work.

Here is a better use of the "stimulus" money. Give it back to the American people and let them spend it however they want. It is our money, after all. I don't want the Big 3 to succeed unless they improve their business model. I want them to succeed because they are managing their company in a way that encourages real, long-term, actual success, i.e., they make a product that people want in a manner that is fiscally responsible. Until that happens, let them go the way of the dodo if they are incapable of changing.

 

[oldbetang]

The Democrats are, for the most part, responsible for creating the current economic mess. They've had absolute control over the legislative branch for over two years now and what has been the result? Does this so-called stimulus monstrosity really surprise anybody? I mean, comeon!