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What gives us the right to kill on the Battlefield?

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nephilimiyr

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I'm sorry TSIBHOD for spelling your name wrong.

As for me needing God's mercy I would agree and also say I need it every day. As for speaking my mind about how you treated Katydid I have to say I have no regrets. You may see my statements as ad hominem but I should remind you that I was not in debate with you. If my opinion of your conduct here in this thread isn't to your likeing then I'm sorry but I feel no reason to lie about it.
I pray the Lord does teach you a lesson, no need to speculate on this...

God Bless!

neph
 
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TSIBHOD

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Well, neph, I hope we both learn from God and both have His mercy! How's that? As for how I "treated" Katydid, I certainly meant no offense to her. And I have had a bit more correspondence with her via PM, and while I can't speak for her definitively, I do think she realizes that I am not trying to judge her or her husband, and that I merely respectfully disagree.

People can do all the right things, but if their hearts are not close to God, it doesn't do them any good. And if people have pure hearts toward God, yet make some mistakes, God will forgive. So it is the condition of the heart that matters. And anyone in the military or out of the military can either have an impure heart, or a pure heart. In the end, our relationship with God depends on whether we seek to love Him and obey Him. So while I don't think that people in the military are doing the best thing, I acknowledge that they may be seeking God earnestly, and being more pleasing to Him than some out of the military -- including me.

If those in the military are wrong, then they can join the club with the rest of us, who are all wrong about something.
 
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nephilimiyr

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I'm glad to hear that Katydid!

My opinion on this topic isn't one that is easy to say. I see the point of both sides. TSIBHOD said before "I just think that Christians would do better to not be soldiers. But, each man must obey his own conscience," this I do agree with. In order for a christian to willingly join the military I believe isn't something he should do without prayfully seeking out what God wants him to do. When he does during a time of war he is going to be told to do things that go against Jesus's teachings. In order for them to be good soldiers and good christians they really need to know that God is with them.

Generally I view this question in a straight forward way. With God all things are possible and if we want peace all we have to do is pray for it and believe that God will or has delivered the answer.

Now I believe in faith healings or rather I do believe God heals his people in miraculous ways. However for reasons only God knows most people don't recieve a healing and are allowed to die. In any case for the person who is seeking a physical healing are they to not under go any kind of medical treatment? If lets say a person is injured in an accident are we to not call an ambulance but to only pray over this person. Although it may seem to some people that it shows no faith to do so I do believe it is the responsible thing to do and I believe this also is what God expects from us. Yes we pray over that person and we ask God for the healing but we do not stop ourselves from treating that person by our own God given means.

Now lets look at the question of war. Can we apply this belief to it also? Yes and we must! Just like healings, liberty and freedom isn't something we can aford to just sit back and expect God to take care of for us without us doing what we're able to do ourselves. Yes we pray every day for peace and that lives be saved but the responsible thing to do isn't just to pray but to act. To me not going to war when the situation calls for it is the same as refussing to call the ambulance when it is needed. Not doing so is totally reckless and I don't think impresses God in the least.

As for the christian who wants to become involved in this act I again say he must do so only after much prayer and seeking God. If he feels God has given him the green light then I believe there's a reason for that christian to be there, doing what he's doing. If God has placed that christian on the battlefield then who am I or you to argue that with him? I know I'm not about to tell God he's wrong!

I am a vet and I know there are many children of God in the services.


neph
 
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hraedisc

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nephilimiyr said:
Isn't that the pope in the white?
Karol Josef Wojtyla (John Paul II) himself.
Is he with a bunch of the devil's minions in the picture?
I guess the others were having a fashion show. The winner may have been a guy usually presented as with horns, a red suit, a tail, and a pitchfork.
Certainly, he likes war, bloodshed, and death on the battlefield.
 
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theFijian

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butxifxnot said:
sigh. if the loved one is saved, i'd rather keep the aggressor alive to give him more time to repent, as the loved one's fate is secure.
!!SIGH!!

You would see a loved one die rather than stop an aggressor who may NEVER come to salvation? That may sound very pious to you, but down here on planet earth it sounds super-spiritual and downright ridiculous.

People seem to be misunderstanding the parable of the Good Samaritan here. Yes, your enemy is your neighrbour, as is your brother in Christ which people seem to be forgetting. Like I said earlier, sometimes we must choose between the lesser of two evils, and who are we commanded by James to look after?

James 1:27 - "...to look after orphans and widows in their distress..."

peace
Andy
 
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Katydid

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butxifxnot, I will put you in the situation that many of our soldiers today are in. There are the terrorists, unsaved, and the people whom they are trying to kill, unsaved. So what do you do. Allow the unsaved to kill the unsaved, or protect the non aggressors and stop the aggressors?
 
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jiminpa

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Okay, let's get scriptural here again. Was Paul lying when he said that all scripture is inspired by God? What was the scripture that he was refering to, since the New Testament hadn't been written yet? Was he testifying on his own behalf? What does Jesus say about one who testifies on his own behalf? Was the writer of Hebrews wrong when he said that Jesus is the same today, yesterday and forever? Is Jesus God? Didn't God not only order the Jews to war, but tell them in some cases to destroy everything and everyone, including women and children? And when in those cases they left someone alive He cursed the whole nation.

Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. The Old Testament is just as much scripture as the New Testament. War is justified sometimes. To not defend the inocent with all available means is an abomination, and to advocate passivity in such situations is unconscionable. To say, "I would intervene up to the point of violence," is passivity, because someone who is out to kill the person you are standing in front of will not think twice about killing you, so you have done nothing except get yourself killed too.

I have a relative who was robbing homes. The father of the owner of one of the homes lived nextdoor to his son. He came home while his son's house was being robbed. Danny ran out of the house with a gun drawn, and both men fired. No one really knows who shot first, but that man is alive, because Danny was wounded before he hit the father. Now to the bigger point. If Danny kept getting away with these burglaries he would have sunk even deeper into sin, and perhaps never gotten his wakeup call. You see, because of the intensity of that day, he is beginning to see the path he was on, and realize how he got there. He hasn't fully repented yet, but he is closer than if he had just sunk to the depths.

The above is true. The way he was going he would have just let sin slowly suck the life out of him and died a little at a time without cofrontation, probably in a drug induced stupor. Being shot and going to prison was a good thing for Danny. I just pray that he will fully see the truth, come to Jesus.

I have other questions for the passifists here. Do you think that there should be no police force? If there should be, should they go out against armed criminals unarmed to be nothing more than clay pigeons for target practice? How loving is that? Or do you really beleive that there should be no real restraint against the lawless? If they should go unrestrained who will be left to tell them about Jesus after they shoot us all for annoying them with the Gospel?

Seriously, I don't understand.
 
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TSIBHOD

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jiminpa said:
To not defend the inocent with all available means is an abomination, and to advocate passivity in such situations is unconscionable.
Okay, this is just plain rude to any pacifists. Do not scorn others just because they do not agree with you. Whether you think so or not, they have some valid reasons for what they believe. Some Christians in other countries have fought persecuting governments not with weapons, but with preaching. They were imprisoned, tortured, killed, separated from their families, etc. But they did not try to defend themselves with force. This was not because they were cowards, and they did not do what they did because they advocated the violence being perpetrated against them. They just had personal convictions that they needed to act how they did. Do not condemn them for that.
 
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Warrior Poet

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Yekcidmij said:
Didnt Jesus tell the Roman soldier that he had more faith than anyone he had seen? He didnt say anything to him about leaving the Roman army.

Take that in context dawg..... that had nothing to do with the army he was in..... it was his blind faith to beleive in Christ, which was far better then the hypocrites that he had been encountering.

Warrior Poet
 
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Warrior Poet

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And here I thought you were gonna get scriptual........ you just asked a bunch of question with not one scripture..... do you feel confident on answer all those,?

and Fulfuill the law huh?*nods* ok
Didnt come to abolish it either...fair enough. But he is extremely strict on how you use it. Jesus said those that practice the Law but only parts of it an ignore other parts arent doing as they should. He was very clear on this and uses the word hypocrites to describe these thing. I would present you with more OT Law that would seem to be a very un-christian like thing to do today, more so laws you dont abide by today either... my question to you would be why? And if you bring Jesus into this after that argument you have "X"ed your own argument. If you are willing to use those laws to support your opinion and yet ignore so many others.... well there is a name for that.
Pacifist....sounds like a cuss word.... and people like you treat it as one as well.

By the way is Danny dead.... I didnt think so.

Warrior Poet
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Don't read this if you are sensitive.

Here is a little picture to help clarify it in your mind. It is only fictional in that the details are contrived for our purpose. Yet all of this is true and has occurred countless times in the lives of people down through history.

Your country has been at war for a short while. When you went to work this morning you thought you were leaving your family safe. The battlefield was many miles away.
During the course of the day the enemy has dropped thousands of troops into you area as a part of a massive invasion. You hear the battle raging and coming closer to your town. You begin to fear for your wife and children. You decide to rush home to get them out of harm's way.
As you rush home you realize the battle is much closer than you thought. You drive through neighborhoods and see unbelievable acts of barbarism being carried out again innocent civilians. Women are being raped and killed in the street. Babies are being tossed into the air and bayoneted. Long trenches are being dug and hundreds of people (young, old, women and children) are being lined up, shot, and burned. Many more people are being beaten and lead away in chains. You somehow make it through to your home and see men with bayonets dragging your wife and teenage daughter into the street. They rip your infant son away from your wife. Your wife and children see you and scream to you for help.
You have a hunting rifle left in your car from your last hunting trip. There is a very good chance you can save your family from the horror that is taking place. There are only two or three soldiers and you are a very good shot.

What do you do? There is no time to think or rationalize this. What do you do as you look into the eyes of your wife and daughter who are now having their clothes ripped off? What do you do as the men toss your infant child into the air?

As I said, this is not fictional. This happens all the time. It is terrible, and it should make even strong men sick. But what would you do?

I know what my heart says. You follow yours.
 
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jiminpa

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Pacifist....sounds like a cuss word.... and people like you treat it as one as well.
Since I wasn't using it as such you must be projecting. I just wanted to specifiy who the questions were for, and pacifists is the correct word. I really don't think that you would prefer some of the things I have heard others call pacifists.

By the way is Danny dead.... I didnt think so.
I don't understand why that matters to this discussion, but no he is not. The other guy missed a little. He wasn't taking the time to properly aim. Although he only missed by a little with one of his shots.

And here I thought you were gonna get scriptual........ you just asked a bunch of question with not one scripture
those questions were refering to scripture, and I noticed you didn't answer any of them. So you don't think the Old Testament is still authoratative, and that somehow Jesus is not the same? That it was the wrathful God of the Old Testament that ordered His people to war, and that it is a new merciful God that we are under now? I personally believe that the same God who ordered genocide is the same God who always wanted men's hearts more than robotic, ritual obedience. God has always wanted obedience to be the result of our love for him not some religious obligation.

So again I want to ask anyone who thinks that there is no justification for using force, do you believe that it is wrong to effectively stop murderers? Should Christians sit idly by and watch the criminals victimize the world? If you say that it is not okay to sit idly by and that it is also not okay to use effective force, how do you propose to effectively resist violent criminals without force and the real threat of death?

I don't see how you can reconcile passivity, (by whatever name you want to call it), with the charge to defend the innocent. Please explain it to me.
 
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Michael713

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WOW, that is a good explaination........
 
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daveleau

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Not sure if it's been posted here yet or not, but Lucado puts it into words very well here:
http://www.maxlucado.com/pdf/upwords.god.and.war.pdf

Basically, the sermon on the mount is a sermon given by Jesus where He speaks to people about dealing as individuals. Th context supports this as all of the other examples He talks about are between individuals. The eye for an eye texts tell us that the punishment should fit the crime. Looking at the way that these verses were used historically from the time they were given by Moses until the coming (and even after), these verses were never taken literally. The principle was as I stated above, the punishment should fit the crime. Jesus does not want us as a people to lay down and be the doormats of the world. We are to stand up for our rights as Christians and for God's work. But, we are not to be hasty in our use of force. We are to exhaust all other means before taking up arms.
 
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Warrior Poet

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jiminpa said:
Since I wasn't using it as such you must be projecting. I just wanted to specifiy who the questions were for, and pacifists is the correct word. I really don't think that you would prefer some of the things I have heard others call pacifists.

Yeah, projecting how YOU came off. Other names for Pacifist like say.......Christlike?? Sorry but he was the epitomy of pacifist.... any name you can think of fire away.
Fists don't make the man, neither does the gun.


jiminpa said:
I don't understand why that matters to this discussion, but no he is not. The other guy missed a little. He wasn't taking the time to properly aim. Although he only missed by a little with one of his shots.

Good point and that was my point your story makes no sense in this discussion.

jiminpa said:
those questions were refering to scripture, and I noticed you didn't answer any of them.

Funny neither did you. So please by all means feel free... I will follow your lead.


I never said that I think this is what you referred to as projecting. Jesus not the same??? I didn't read about Jesus in the OT sorry, but if you could point me to some of the things He said there I would love to read it. Not God that changed it was the covenant.
He implemented a new one, as spoken of in Isaiah. Did God change I don't think so..... Did God approach his people in a new attitude.... I am not sure how you can dispute that. Its evident in the Word... all over the NT it plays out that way. I agree just because God took a new approach doesn't mean He changed or is different.... His covenant was different and changed..... New covenant new approach.


Well lets reference a little story I was told. This boy was sinning and heading downward he got shot and DIDNT DIE.... so guess what he had time to repent and ask for forgiveness.
Now lets assume this person was shot and killed.... no more chance for repentance.
Your story holds no correlation to the topic.... when you kill someone you take away their chance to reconcile, and prove there Loyalty
We thank God he(Danny) is alive so should we also thank Him when someone dies as well?
If you say no then please explain to me why you would advocate these actions and then not Thank God for it.

I don't see how you can reconcile passivity, (by whatever name you want to call it), with the charge to defend the innocent. Please explain it to me.

I don't see how you can reconcile by being the aggressor...... with the charge to inflict the final judgment upon someone who could be very well innocent and of the same faith, Please explain that to me. You think on the battlefield that only soldiers die?.... Its called collateral damage... and its accepted. If that doesn't make you sick, then nothing will.

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jiminpa

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I didn't read about Jesus in the OT
Do you believe that Jesus is God? Ever read Isaiah 53 or Psalms 22? Either the New Covenent didn't abolish the old one, or Jesus lied when He said He didn't come to abolish the law. Which is it? I personally believe that He told the truth.

Other names for Pacifist like say.......Christlike?
Funny I don't remember the Bible calling pacifism a fruit of the Spirit, so it must be your opinion. You are welcome to have an opinion, but please try to realize that your opinion isn't authoratative.

According to www.dictionary.com
pacifist


adj : opposed to war [syn: pacifist(a), pacifistic] n : someone opposed to violence as a means of settling disputes [syn: pacificist, disarmer]

Seems to me to carry no positive or negative connotation. You were simply offended by being called what you are. It would be the same as if I would be offended if someone called me politically conservative--I am politically conservative.

BTW, if Danny had not been shot he would probably have died in his sins. He was headed further into a dieing lifestyle. He would be no worse off if he had died then than if he had not been shot. Another point about this, after the shooting we found some old savings bonds. I don't know for sure, but I think that they were probably someone's retirement fund. If he had not been shot he would have simply spent them on drugs. Is it better to deprive someone of their hard earned property or to use force when necessary to stop criminals?

I ask any pacifist on this thread, how would you respond to those who want to kill every last human
on the planet not in their sect of Islam? Ask them to kindly stop? They aren't kindly people. They will not stop without force. Give them what they want? They want the world purged of all Christians and Jews and anyone else not in their sect.
 
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