What exactly is hell?

[homewardbound]

For years I believed that hell what a place of eternal torment, whether it be by fire or some other means. Recently, though, I've read some compelling arguments that hell is not a place of torture, but a place of total separation from God, his love, and his blessings. I must admit that the idea of hell being a place of total separation from God lends a very different perspective for me because my relationship with Him becomes based totally on my desire to be in his presence forever, and removes any motivations that are related to the fear of an eternal torture chamber.

I'm interested in hearing your views, including those of you who don't believe hell exists.

 

[GL2814]

Hell is not just lakes of burning oil or chains of ice. It is being removed from God's sight. Knowing that you could have had a releationship with the Creator of the universe. Now you will be all alone, forever.

 

[pachomi33]

What you have just desrcibed is the Eastern Orthodox view of Hell. God loves all men even when in hell. In patristic thought all men will see God. God is a consuming fire (Heb.12:28-31) Depending on our response to His love is how we will feel that love. For some it is a burning of pain- those who die in "mortal" sin, or outside of fellowship with God. To others He is the fire that did not consume the Bush that Moses saw. He clothes us with His glory, or Presence. The angels are ministers of fire (Heb.1) They are literally on fire with Od. The more we love Him the more we expereince that fire of His love. Oh the amazing thouht, the love that God has for His Son is experienced by all in Christ (Jn.17:26)
God bless you.

 

[James1979]

Matt 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matt 8:12, Matt 22:13, Matt 24:51, Matt 25:30, Luke 13:28 talks about weeping and gnashing teeth.

Rev 20:14, 15 talks about the lake of fire.

We want to comfort ourselves that it will just be a seperation from God with sadness in our heart without experience any eternal torment from God but through his word their will be punishment. What torment did the Lord Jesus Christ go through to save his people. It was equivalent to those who would have to spend an eternity in the lake of fire. Jesus had asked his father if he could remove the cup from himself but he knew that he had to do his father will to have these indiviuals to spend an eternity with him an everlasting enjoyment. The cup was the wrath of God.

 

[pachomi33]

The cup Jesus Drank was also drunk by His disciples (Mt.20) THe cup was the suffering not necessarily the wrath of God, like Jesus suffered x amount for x amount of sin. Jesus suffered the pains of death (Acts.2) but could never, ever in His Person be separated from the Father, for He was one with Him. The cross was an act of the Trinity not just the Son being punished on our behalf. The Church condemned that view hundreds of years ago. I hate to introduce another discussion but it was Anselm who introduced the penal substitutionary view of the atonement. Christ conquers, the death on the Cross was the deliverance of mankind from captivity to death and the devil. The Prince of this world was judged and cast out, Christ then spoiled- literally disarmed the principalities and powers by renewing human nature by swallowing up death and our passions by the light of His divinity.
Regardless- we may all exclaim "Christ died for our sins" IF we do not tell others of this how then shall they be saved, regardless of how we view Hell- which traditionally the church has viewed as the separation of the soul from God without exception- it is horrible beyond words. There is no comfort in it as perhaps might be inferred. "Knowing the terror of the Lord we Persuade men" God bless you

 

[Grammar_Guy]

Well, I'm fine with any of those views, as long as it includes eternal separation from God, because ultimately that's worse than any physical torture.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Psalms 49:12, "Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish."

Ecclesiastes 3:19, "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity."

Isaiah 26:14, "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish."

8045-55 AV - destroy, destruction, perished, to be annihilated, be devastated.

There can be no resurrection for the lost and unsaved.

Hell is an English word introduced (as best I can tell) somewhere around the 1500's. It is not to be found in the earlier writings of either of the Testaments. It's entire concept is totally pagan, introduced from many pagan beliefs. It was, imo, a carry over from (many) pagan beliefs into the early Catholic Church and, ultimately, used as a means to control the masses and guarantee the (financial) survival of that early church.

For an excellent overview of the developmental history of the concept see Hell.

All commonly accepted references of the term, carefully examined, do not support the existence of such a place (hell, Lake of Fire, etc) nor can a careful examination of these verses support the concept of eternal punishment which, btw, is totally against the very concept of the justice and mercy of God.

The unsaved shall see no resurrection, they are dust, they have lived their lives, received their rewards while alive on the earth, take nothing with them, there is no memory left of them; all they are is dust in the earth.

So what happens to the dust of the earth?

2 Peter 3:10, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

And that, imo, sounds like The Lake of Fire.

 

[Flynmonkie]

.......and made all their memory to perish.....

Just an awesome, scripturally backed post Pilgrim 33!

 

[Pilgrim 33]

as long as it includes

We must be careful to let scripture interpret scripture and not be swayed by what we've heard, think or want scripture to say. Prooftexting is most dangerous.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

a place of total separation from God

This, imo, is a result of improper conclusions reached through misunderstandings of Scripture and has absolutely no biblical basis.

 

[James1979]

Well if that's the case, that the unsaved will be burned up...then you're calling out Judgment Day as it won't happen because apparently the unsaved/lost are burnt up and cannot give an account for their lives. That makes no sense at all.

Matt 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Well if that's the case, that the unsaved will be burned up...then you're calling out Judgment Day as it won't happen because apparently the unsaved/lost are burnt up and cannot give an account for their lives. That makes no sense at all.

Their lives are a testimony, like a played back movie of happened in their lives IS an account. No thing shall be hidden, all things will be known. Indeed, to God who knows all things nothing is unknown. It's just a matter of these 'unknown' things being revealed. And those in Christ will be given that power to know all things. Personal testimony is not necessary, their very actions and thoughts are the testimony. Besides, the dead are just that, dead, they have no testimony to give, they are as dust, even their memory is forgotten. Is it in Jesus' purpose and will to resurrect all the evil to everlasting life just to send them for all eternity into perdition's flames? Where does it say this? Where does it say that all men shall live forever in either heaven or hell? The very concept is against both the justice and mercy of God as well as the very purpose and sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus came to bring (more abundant) life, not the threat of everlasting doom.

Matt 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Will you, yourself, give account for all of your idle words? If you've repented and asked The Lord for forgiveness for those idle words then must you still give account? Or has The Lord thrown those idle words so far behind Him that they never existed? If so, then the "all men" inclusive assumption in your Matthew verse is incorrect. Or misunderstood.

1 Corinthians 4:5, "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."

The crux of the (mis-)understanding here, imo, is that Christians, on the whole, have an inordinate tendency to rob all of the blessings and promises given to the Jews for themselves and leave to the Jews what little that remains, the curses. We must keep in mind who is being spoken to and who is being spoken about. In short, in the Matthew verse above we see a Jew, speaking to Jews, about Jewish issues. Nothing in there about Christians or even, for that matter, those not in Christ. Obviously we have more than one judgment; so, 'which' judgment is for whom? Salvation is not based on works and, yet, there is to be a judgment of works. Still, why would the unsaved need to be judged if they are already judged wanting and are lost to begin with; indeed, the Scriptures tell us they already 'have their reward'. All things in the Bible are written FOR our understanding and edification; but not all things contained in the Bible are addressed specifically TO us (Christians).

 

[StevenL]

"There can be no resurrection for the lost and unsaved."

Actually I think that this is quite possible indeed.


John 5
28Do not be surprised and wonder at this, for the time is coming when all those who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
29And they shall come out--those who have practiced doing good [will come out] to the resurrection of [new] life, and those who have done evil will be raised for judgment [raised to meet their sentence].(1)

Acts 24
15Having [the same] hope in God which these themselves hold and look for, that there is to be a resurrection both of the righteous and the unrighteous (the just and the unjust).

 

[Pilgrim 33]

I'm unclear as to what you are saying. Are you saying you believe it is possible for the lost to be saved? Resurrection means life, a resurrecting, a rising up to life. This is only possible through Jesus Christ, to Whom all power has been given.

 

[StevenL]

I'm not saying anything really. I just posted two passages of Scripture, one spoken by Jesus and the other by Paul, that state that there will be a resurrection of the unjust and unrighteous.

So, according to the Scriptures, there will be a resurrection of the unjust...those who have done evil.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Cool. Tho the "unjust and righteous" do not equate to the "lost and saved", at least, not imo.

I'm of the opinion, at this point, that the resurrection of the just and resurrection of the unjust refers not to saved and unsaved but refers to the awarding of rewards upon the saved based on how they utilized their Godly gifts, "...For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required...".

Allow me to explain (I'll throw some verse references in at the bottom)....

The Matthew 25 passage containing the phrase, "shall be gathered all nations" contains no resurrection and occurs on earth involving the then living.



As such, this particular event is not the same as the Revelation 20 passage of a first resurrection judgment.



One, on earth, involves those living humans; the other, takes place in the spirit world.



The former, the 'then living' are adjudged for 'their' treatment of Israel following the Great (Jewish) Tribulation; the latter delineates between which of the saved are resurrected when.



As to "the rest of the dead lived not again until..." we are told not to worry about these brethren, "...concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope" for these (ie the saved and, of which, are the only ones ever spoken of as being asleep) have hope for resurrected life which is only possible through Christ Jesus for those in Him.



Who the first class are judging with respect to the usage of "judgment" and "was given" bespeaks not of the authority of judging, but the bestowal of rewards or, more rightly put, recompense, contained in the sentencing itself.

Luke 14:13-14, "But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just."

Romans 12:17, "Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men."

2 Thessalonians 1:6, "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;"

Hebrews 10:30, "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people."

















As to 'who' are His people, I think, we can agree does not include the unsaved thus we see a judgment of his people; where does this scenario fit in with the above two judgments? The entire Revelation 20 scene under discussion is not one of retributional judgment but rather one of rewards and prizes, who gets resurrected first and gets to judge and who gets to be resurrected later. The phrase, "to whom much is given" come to mind in this context. Do the martyrs of the first resurrection also determine rewards of the "rest of the dead that lived not until"?

A slight digression to the "then living": there will be those, who, as a result of the tribulation, will be brought to Christ which also includes Jews, however, these saved will be after the parousia for the martyrs who, by then, would already be resurrected. What happens to those finally left who are alive at this on-earth judgment at end of the tribulation? I'm of the opinion these will be destroyed along with everything else including, death and hell, that will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Will the Lake of Fire be large enough for the old heavens and earth to be thrown into; will it be large enough to encompass that much? Or will the Lake of Fire just be "all hell breaking lose"?

2 Peter 3:10, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

With respect to the Revelation 20:12-15 passage speaking of the dead who stand before God 1) cannot be those saved and 2) the dead cannot be resurrected to life apart from Jesus and there is no reference to their being alive at that time and, considering the extreme allegorical nature of the book itself, I do not see how a literal interpretation of this passage can be assumed but, rather, more on the order of "all things shall be made known"...

1 Corinthians 4:5, "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."

So, yes, I'm leaning toward the idea, at this point, that the resurrection of the just and resurrection of the unjust refers not to saved and unsaved but refers to the awarding of rewards upon the saved based on how they utilized their Godly gifts, "...For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required...".





<H2 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Verse References</H2>

MT 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
MT 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

REV 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
REV 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Luke 14:13-14, "But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just."
Romans 12:17, "Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men."
2 Thessalonians 1:6, "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;"
Hebrews 10:30, "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people."

1THESS 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1THESS 4:14-17 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



2 Peter 3:10, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."



REV 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
REV 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
REV 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years



LK 12:45-49 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

 

[StevenL]

Really? Give me the Scriptural equation please.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

my apologies for MS Word's inability to carry over its formatting into my above post.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Really? Give me the Scriptural equation please.

Please see Post 16 above.

 

[Believer-in-Christ]

If God loves us so much, is there a chance that one could repent from already being placed in hell?