What exactly is a liberal Christian?

[EliasEmmanuel]

I agree. However, you could say that about almost every nutty televangelist on TBN.......even Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell have a lot to say that's correct and fruitful. They are also full of bigotry and error.

Just because a religious leader has some truth in his message does not mean he's ok.

Very true. However, we ARE talking about a guy who was known by the Disciples/Apostles and from all we can tell had their seal of approval. Let's remember he even corrected Peter on acceptance of Gentiles

Paul has no lock on truth and seems more confused than most about grace and sin.

Again, as someone who was led to a good understanding of grace largely through Paul, I think we must be reading different books.

 

[Rocinante]

Let's remember he even corrected Peter on acceptance of Gentiles.

Ummmmm.......as long as we're REMEMBERING.....let's remember who told that story.



As far as grace goes......perhaps Paul has not led you to such a good understanding as you think. I haven't met many people who understand grace. Has there been a thread here on grace? Maybe we should delve into it?

 

[EliasEmmanuel]

Ummmmm.......as long as we're REMEMBERING.....let's remember who told that story.

Touche'. But his stuff DID end up accepted canon and he wasn't blackballed by the disciples, clearly....

As far as grace goes......perhaps Paul has not led you to such a good understanding as you think. I haven't met many people who understand grace.

I fully admit I'm still a student and likely always will be. But I'm also not going to go on at length about how graceful I am. I just know how graceful I should be....

 

[TScott]

As to St. Paul and grace, I believe that was one of the main reasons the Early Fathers chose Paul's works to make up almost half of the books of the New Testament. Who better could epitomize and encompass the meaning of grace? When I hear the first few lines of the song Amazing Grace, I always think that it fits St. Paul to a tee.


Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.
’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.

 

[puriteen18]

You ask, "What is a Liberal Christian?"

Whatever you want it to be.

...another question...

"What is a conservative Christian?"

Whatever you want it to be.

...and another...

"What is a Biblical Christian?"

To which I must ask, what is the Bible?
and the Bible is whatever you want it to be.

...and another...

"What is an orthodox Christian?"

To which I must ask, what is orthodoxy?
To which I must answer, Whatever you want it to be.


However, for those of us concerned with what is true, we must submit to God and His Word, striving to understand and live by it.

Remember, absolute Truth is not whatever we want it to be, and niether is eternity.

Please don't misinterpret me.

 

[jessedance]

liberal christians tend to be involved in good works, like the methodists. whereas conservative christians are more involved with salvation by faith, gifts of the spirit, experiencing God, praising god. being in gods presence.

 

[Rocinante]

liberal christians tend to be involved in good works, like the methodists. whereas conservative christians are more involved with salvation by faith, gifts of the spirit, experiencing God, praising god. being in gods presence.

Like these........

NRS Ezekiel 16:49 This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.

Resulting in this.......

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?'
23 Then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.'

Let those with ears to hear, hear the word of the Lord.

 

[naimas]

Conservatives SAY they believe in salvation by grace but its really by works, seperation from everything that can be labeled "the world" and distancing themselves (uh, thank Paul for this one) from everyone who needs the Gospel because they are the fornicators, the heathens, the liars and and the thieves.

Not to mention the very folks Christ hung out with.

Having been a conservative for 34 years I can tell you that. As far as Liberals (and I am not viewing them as perfect they do tend to offer good service to the world (instead of a chick track and a sermon) and tend to vary from belief to belief. Conservatives on the other hand listen to whatever is handed down to them and dont think too much about it. Hence the reason why the KJV is still on the market today.

One thing that irks me is when people ask here if we have "really read" the books of Paul. IN ANSWER TO THAT: Yes, and in several languages, from different manuscripts and many many different versions with commentaries from the 1800s to the present. Not to mention Bible School, Church Study, internet and live research on his life and times. Reading his book is like seeing a movie. You see it once and you think it is great and flawless, but see it again and again and you begin to notice gaffs, continuancy errors, dead dialogue, missed cues and the like. Does this ruin the film? No. It actually makes watching it more rewarding and deep. Watch any movie 2 dozen times and I guarantee you if you are REALLY watching you will see weak spots, dead spots and moments of sheer brilliance.

People who think Paul was the man of grace havent read the book more than once.

And in answer to a statement....The Disciples did not accept Paul openly and Paul worked his way gaining influence with "some" of them but it took a great deal of time. Anyone who knows Pauls personality knows he loved a crowd, loved to express himself and fought to be heard even when others had more of a right to speak. People like this develop zealous followers and these people wasted no time in making Paul the WalMart Apostle copying his works and dispersing them all over, censoring and possibly destroying "other Disciples works" and seeing that their man took over the scene. Ofcourse Pauls words fill up most of the NT...it was a monopoly if I have ever seen one. 12 original Disciples and HOW MANY works from them do we have today? Odd that someone who never knew Christ, never met Christ, would somehow be chosen to write about Christ's salvation plan. As hard as he tries he just doesnt GET Christ. His personality, his beliefs, his associations with people directly and repeatedly contradict Christs. In fact the lines Christ drew in the sand are totally erased by Paul and instead of Christs words of condensing the law into two laws, we have Paul with this NO LAW philosophy, all grace, but because he wavers (like the Jews of old) the simple commandments soon become another BOOK of rules. The NO LAW Apostle ends up filling our lives with many laws, rules, restrictions, and practices. None of which were spoken by Jesus. Conservatives use these rules to justify living EXACTLY OPPOSITE OF CHRISTS EXAMPLE.

There is grace in Pauls books but careful reading reveals much more. Again, he was the ONLY Apostle who had to repeatedly assert his position over and over and over again. Why? Because few took him seriously.

I probably shouldnt say this but.....remember Christ warned His Disciples that one would soon come after He left that would try to jump in from the side and not come in through the front door. The very fact that Paul

1) Came from nowhere

2) Has HIS story told by HIM or by a close companion

3) Has these visions and wierd events that no other Apostle had,

3) Spoke of signs as validation of his ministry when Christ warned that a rebellious generations seeks a sign

4) Rebuked Peter publicly (thereby showing disrespect for someone we know was chosen by God)

5) Completely contradicts Christ's view of women (if you take it at face value)

6) Wavers on circumsicion

7) Fills up the NT with many many letters. Letters that sometimes contradict each other yet to this day we have few words from anyone else.

Did the twelve just up and leave? Call it a day? Decide Paul had the monopoly on writing? So first hand witnesses and companions take the back seat to someone no one knew who was never at the scene?

History is written by the victors. It is suspected that some of Pauls followers were such zealots that they sabotaged or censored other writings.

Any why not, Paul even said if anyone brings a gospel different than his-even if it was the others or even Angels that they were not to be listened to? WHO does Paul think he is????? He has glaring character flaws and was the ONLY GUY who had to split because he wouldnt show grace to an earlier defector (some follower of his own words) But what would you expect from someone who wasnt there for the "foot washing" lesson Christ taught?

It is people who seriously read Pauls words that see these concerns. I accepted his quirks but when a cross comparison revealed some clear differences between Jesus and Paul, I make the only rational and acceptable choice. Jesus.


I dont believe Paul is evil, but must be read with an open (and informed) mind.

 

[EliasEmmanuel]

Conservatives SAY they believe in salvation by grace but its really by works, seperation from everything that can be labeled "the world" and distancing themselves (uh, thank Paul for this one) from everyone who needs the Gospel because they are the fornicators, the heathens, the liars and and the thieves.

Not to mention the very folks Christ hung out with.

Amen there.....

(Although again, I think it has more to do with people bending Paul's writings to their own ends)

People who think Paul was the man of grace havent read the book more than once.

See, now you just did the very thing that you said irks you....

for my part, I've read the entire NT SEVERAL times and studied quite a bit. Again, my own move from "villify the heathens" and "live in fear of Judgement" had quite a bit to do with Paul's writings. I just can't see how one can look at them and come away with the kind of crushing legalism I see in a lot of Christian circles without flatly refusing to look at context, isogeting ones own arrogance and disdain for others into them, or just plain ignoring a lot of what's said.

And... you said maybe Paul's stuff didn't impart as much grace to me as I think. Well, all I can say is you're welcome to have a peek at my posting history here and decide for yourself.

And in answer to a statement....The Disciples did not accept Paul openly and Paul worked his way gaining influence with "some" of them but it took a great deal of time.

Understandable, given his pre-conversion complicity in Stephen's death and the persecution of the church.

People like this develop zealous followers and these people wasted no time in making Paul the WalMart Apostle copying his works and dispersing them all over, censoring and possibly destroying "other Disciples works" and seeing that their man took over the scene.

Is this pure speculation or is there some evidence to support this?

Of course Pauls words fill up most of the NT...it was a monopoly if I have ever seen one. 12 original Disciples and HOW MANY works from them do we have today?

This could have a lot to do with the fact that most of the disciples were most likely illiterate, and Paul's Pharasaic education would've given him a grounding in persuasive argument and so forth. Yeah it's odd, but it's also odd that the disciples who wrote the gospels didn't do it for several years.

I mean.... John spent a lot of time and energy writing against Gnostic teaching. Why didn't he concentrate on Paul at all, given his apparent influence? And yes, Paul rebuked Peter publically, but let's remember that it was for SAYING God accepted Gentiles but refusing to associate with them so he wouldn't appear to be a "bad Jew".

 

[jessedance]

rocinante;
the verse doesnt mean that everyone tha prophecys and casts out demons in Jesus name will go to hell , it means only those who fall away later on who at one time cast out demons and at one time prophecsised. we had a lady in our church, a pentecostal church that could speak in tongues and prophesis, she left the church and turned to witch craft. she would be one of those.

 

[Rocinante]

Of course it doesn't mean EVERYBODY who casts out demons, etc.

Read it in context........

It means that those who think they are in good standing with the Lord yet fail to support things like equal health care for all children and the poor.......THEY ARE THE ONES who will get this terrible surprise.

 

[puriteen18]

Conservatives SAY they believe in salvation by grace but its really by works, seperation from everything that can be labeled "the world" and distancing themselves (uh, thank Paul for this one) from everyone who needs the Gospel because they are the fornicators, the heathens, the liars and and the thieves.

Liberals say the same thing. As long as you're a good person, you'll be okay. As long as you be nice and love everyone (or atleast most people) you'll be okay.

Niether the conservatives or the liberals got it right.

Salvation is a work of God alone, by which He makes a dead man into a new creature and causes that man to walk in righteousness for His Name's sake.

The good works of true Christianity are the fruit of salvation. Salvation will produce good works, but good works do not produce salvation.

Ezekial 36.27
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

We have no ablity to do works pleasign unto the LORD, but He will surely cause us to follow in the narrow path, for His sake, not our's.

Ezekial 36.32
Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

 

[naimas]

I like this thread. It was INDEED speculation about Paul in what I wrote. I knew it at the time I was writing it. I think I can occasionally allow myself to do something many Conservatives routinely indulge in.
Knew about the illiteracy (or possibility) of it in some of the Disciples. I am not tackling Paul for Paul's sake here. I appreciate his writing style. I can see why it is popular.

But I do cringe when I hear him labeled as a man of grace. He is a man of inner turmoil, a changing heart, and trying to give expression to what is not in words (until he writes them) My gripes arent with you about grace and Paul. I am refering to other people (not on this forum) He does speak of a grace code of living, but then limits it for the "righteous" and slams outsiders too much. He may not be the smoking gun, or the person who shot it, but there are indeed some real bullets in his writings that the church has taken and spread. If we want to go back to foundations here and claim that Paul's words have been misused then you can make that statement and it will be true. I would add to it that Paul's attitudes and character are in question. He was writing letters, not flawless words from Creator to man. Virtually every translation gets Timothy 3:16 wrong. No manuscript contains the word "is" in its text. It was added on by translators when put into English.

It does not say: Every Scripture IS inspired by God and IS profitable for.......

It says Every Scripture inspired by God and profitable (however profitable is used when the more correct "useful or beneficial" would have been precise.) Another case where translators are trying to make a verse APPEAR INFALLIBLE AND LEGAL.

The verse most likely says: All Scripture inspired by God is also useful for.......

Paul wouldnt have said ALL SCRIPTURE IS because he was writing his words AFTER false Gospels had been circulating. He wouldnt make a careless statement to churches that EVERY SCRIPTURE they would read would be from God. Also, the word is not INSPIRED, but perfectly and accurately is "God Breathed ON" meaning God breathes life into it, just like he did to Adam. It means it is anointed, but not flawless.
The Bible has approx 50,000-100,000 added words and phrases in it to fit pieces together so modern man can understand it. Just in the Gospel of Mathew and the first four chapters of the Book of Romans I logged 7 times where those added words potentially distort the meaning of the verse. Anyone can open their Bible. If they see a word in italics it means it ISNT IN THE MANUSCRIPTS.

I dont believe Paul is evil (which is why I put the caution when I spoke about Christs words about the outsider coming after Him) It just gives me pause for thought.

Like we are ALL doing as we study this. Paul is human, his hand was mortal, God breathed life and benefit into his words and anointed them. But they are not incarnal even if they are Canon. Just my conviction.

We are not reading different books. You see them one way, others see them a different way. I started out like you. We get grace and whole bunch more in those books. That needs to be understand and recognized.

 

[Rocinante]

Liberals say the same thing. As long as you're a good person, you'll be okay. As long as you be nice and love everyone (or atleast most people) you'll be okay.

Roz sez: Naw. That's not what THIS liberal says. I say if you vote Republican, you are likely in big trouble no matter how you might heal the sick and spread your "gospel."

 

[puriteen18]

Roz sez: Naw. That's not what THIS liberal says. I say if you vote Republican, you are likely in big trouble no matter how you might heal the sick and spread your "gospel."

But you have said that if we keep the "law of love" we will be saved. That, my friend, is works, not grace.

 

[naimas]

see below.

 

[naimas]

I dont believe in justification by following the law because the Pharisees were skilled at it and certainly not justified. But I dont care what Paul said, we are to Love the Lord with all our heart and our neighbor as we love ourselves. Those are laws that we are in disobediance with and out of fellowship with Christ if we break them. Problem is many many Christians who ascribe to a grace only doctrine practice hate, intolerance and seperation because of prejudice and they cling to Pauls words for validation as being judged not by works but by grace. If only they would severely ration such grace for the unloving, homophobic, blackballing and gossiping as they do for those who seem worldy. Jesus put things in perspective with how he views the lost and hurting. And we have the mandates to follow after His example. Not Pauls, when in the times it contradicts or attempts to change Christs.

So we are very much under a law of Love. It doesnt make us a citizen of the heavenly but it is the Law of the Kingdom. And because too many are trying to be Sheriffs of the town we are seeing some get away with commiting clear crimes while others are being lynched who committed no offense. When this happens we follow Christs example and His words. It is often the OT misapplied model of leadership mixed with Pauls lofty words of High Callings and empowerment that foster such abuse. Were we to look at Jesus words of being the last and not the first, feeding the sheep instead of lording over them and washing the feet of others we would find the role of Sheriff diminished and less appealing considering it has NO place in factual, Biblical Christianity. Such people violate the law of love every day and make a practice of teaching others too. They can do this but they should not call themselves Christians or followers of Jesus. And Biblically, we have a right to challenge such heretical behavior.

Christ summed up the law and wrote it on our hearts. Christ is in our hearts, our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. We are walking Tabernacles. The shed blood of Jesus is the approved sacrifice. But obediance and acceptance is based on following the law of Christ and his example. Salvation? No. Acceptance? Yes.

 

[TScott]

But I do cringe when I hear him labeled as a man of grace. He is a man of inner turmoil, a changing heart, and trying to give expression to what is not in words (until he writes them) My gripes arent with you about grace and Paul. I am refering to other people (not on this forum) He does speak of a grace code of living, but then limits it for the "righteous" and slams outsiders too much.

Paul wasn't a man of grace, but he was what he was because of grace. He was a recipient of grace, in that he was a prototype.

 

[Rocinante]

Naimas said:

Problem is many many Christians who ascribe to a grace only doctrine practice hate, intolerance and separation because of prejudice and they cling to Pauls words for validation as being judged not by works but by grace.

Roz sez:

Exactly.

Exactly.

Exactly.

The Bible clearly tells us that grace is the power of God's relentless love. The power and wisdom to live a Godly life. Without grace we cannot live a Godly life.

Some FundaGelicals ignore the Bible and pretend they can't live a Godly life and depend only on their version of "grace," which they see as a free pass to heaven no matter how sinful they are.....oppressing, exploiting, stealing from the poor.....they don't see it as a problem since they have a free pass.

And Jesus will tell anyone who lives like that ........ that he never knew them.

 

[puriteen18]

Some FundaGelicals ignore the Bible and pretend they can't live a Godly life and depend only on their version of "grace," which they see as a free pass to heaven no matter how sinful they are.....oppressing, exploiting, stealing from the poor.....they don't see it as a problem since they have a free pass.

The only churches that I knwo of that are big up on grace are the Reformed Churches, which also strongly teach that good works are signs of grace, that where there is no smoke there is no fire.

I am not trying to brag on my own group, but I really don't know of any other that is so big on grace alone.

I was raised in a church (not calvinistic) that did teach that no matter what a person did, if they "prayed the prayer" they would be saved. But this church didn't really talk about grace that much, most of the time was spent on faith and free will.

But most strong "grace alone" people don't believe that just praying a superstitious prayer will do it. It is all up to God, and once He saves you He causes you to walk the narrow path.

I know alot of "faith and free will alone" churches that teach that, since that is the type of place I was raised.

What church are you speaking of?