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What exactly is a liberal Christian?

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fragmentsofdreams

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Watcher-for-your-soul said:
That's the reason it's not actually "confused" as the referred to poster stated. It is as you stated, unusual to find Christians who share that mix of traits so it is generally assumed that liberal one means liberal the other.

To the Christian, issues like homosexuality and abortion are not political, neither are they "trendy" but matters of great importance scripturally and a matter of life and death when referring to abortion. If we did not find a strong scriptural reason for objections to them, there would be no reason to take up those causes. The only Christians I know who will debate those issues for political reasons are "Christian politicians", few as they actually may be.

That does not negate the importance of social issues and spreading the word which is the single most important thing any Christian can do. The causes are not mutually exclusive of each other, and all should be taken up for scriptural reasons only, never to make a political point.
Homosexuality and abortion aren't either political or moral. They are both. The politics decide what the government should do about something while the morals decide what the individual should do.
 
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Existential1

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Hi,

What distinguishes Jesus, is the absolute strength of his faith: a faith in god, so absolute that its outcomes were miraculous, mountains moved; and that today we should still think of him first, when we think of that human being who got it right.

Jesus embraced those he met, there were few he had to fight and shame: he redeemed; he manifested god, always said look past me and what i do, and see my father.
Jesus said that we were all god's children; all open to the forgiveness inherent in god.

Perhaps what we might be best about, in manifesting god: is seeking out that ground, that is and manifests god; that sees us all as arising from that ground.

Liberals, Christians, Fundamentalists, and all the other forms we each give each other, all arise through our diverse faith actions, and all arise in god.
What we share is god and faith. That seems something overwhelmingly massive. Are the differences of the forms we each give faith and god, really all that important, when weighed against the power of faith, and the quality of god presence.

Take care, god bless.
Thankyou to everyone whose witnesses all encouraged mine.
God really is good.
 
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chalice_thunder

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I suppose Episcopalian is a good example of a Liberal Christian (being one myself) However, we also have conservative Episcopalians. Personally, when I read the life of Jesus, I cannot think that he is anything BUT liberal.
:cool:
 
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Christi

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Existential1 said:
Hi,

What distinguishes Jesus, is the absolute strength of his faith: a faith in god, so absolute that its outcomes were miraculous, mountains moved; and that today we should still think of him first, when we think of that human being who got it right.

Jesus embraced those he met, there were few he had to fight and shame: he redeemed; he manifested god, always said look past me and what i do, and see my father.
Jesus said that we were all god's children; all open to the forgiveness inherent in god.

Perhaps what we might be best about, in manifesting god: is seeking out that ground, that is and manifests god; that sees us all as arising from that ground.

Liberals, Christians, Fundamentalists, and all the other forms we each give each other, all arise through our diverse faith actions, and all arise in god.
What we share is god and faith. That seems something overwhelmingly massive. Are the differences of the forms we each give faith and god, really all that important, when weighed against the power of faith, and the quality of god presence.

Take care, god bless.
Thankyou to everyone whose witnesses all encouraged mine.
God really is good.

YES!!!!!:hug:
 
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tulc

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Liberals, Christians, Fundamentalists, and all the other forms we each give each other, all arise through our diverse faith actions, and all arise in god.
What we share is god and faith. That seems something overwhelmingly massive. Are the differences of the forms we each give faith and god, really all that important, when weighed against the power of faith, and the quality of god presence.
Well put!
tulc
 
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Hi, I'm a new member here.

Based on discussions I have read elsewhere the key difference between liberals and conservatives is in our understanding of the person and nature of Jesus.

Those who are happy to adopt the label 'liberal' generally see him as the ultimate in humanity and his death as a great example of sacrifice in difficult circumstances. Conservatives see him as the unique Son of God who died in our place.

To quote someone else, liberals see him as qualitatively special, conservatives/evangelicals as quantitatively special.

Regards, Samantha
 
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chalice_thunder

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sjgore15 said:
Those who are happy to adopt the label 'liberal' generally see him as the ultimate in humanity and his death as a great example of sacrifice in difficult circumstances. Conservatives see him as the unique Son of God who died in our place.

Hi Samantha! I'm relatively new here, too. Being a liberal Christian myself, I would just share with you that I DO indeed think that Jesus was the ultimate in humanity - but I also believe that he is God eternal, who created, became one of us, died and rose, and now reigns.
Big blessings :wave:
 
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elanor

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sjgore15 said:
Those who are happy to adopt the label 'liberal' generally see him as the ultimate in humanity and his death as a great example of sacrifice in difficult circumstances. Conservatives see him as the unique Son of God who died in our place.
Hello and welcome, Samantha! (You, too, chalice_thunder!) :)

I suppose if someone's going to assign a label to me, it would be liberal. I do differ in some ways from my more fundamentalist brothers and sisters in my understanding of scripture, as well as on some of the more contentious issues in the church today. But I also believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, and that He bore my sin on the cross. I believe wholeheartedly that no one comes to the Father except through Him, although my understanding of what the means may be a little different from some. It would not be accurate to say that my view of Jesus is that He is the "ultimate in humanity and his death as a great example of sacrifice in difficult circumstances." While innocent, I'm sure, that would be a misrepresentation of this liberal's view of Christ as Lord and Savior.

Blessings to you! :)
 
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Dear Elanar and Chalice_thunder,

I did say 'generally'...

There's a spectrum of thought in every category. We all start our Christian life from different points, different personality types, different life experiences, and all of these will influence our views and subsequent growth. But I believe that our attitude to Jesus is the ultimate decider. Because of who he is and what he has done for us.

In discussion on other sites I came across a number of people who called themselves liberal and who found the idea of Jesus dying for us to be abhorrent. Maybe they were actually a minority of those caling themselves liberals.

Regards, Samantha
 
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chalice_thunder

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sjgore15 said:
Dear Elanar and Chalice_thunder,

I did say 'generally'...

There's a spectrum of thought in every category. We all start our Christian life from different points, different personality types, different life experiences, and all of these will influence our views and subsequent growth. But I believe that our attitude to Jesus is the ultimate decider. Because of who he is and what he has done for us.

In discussion on other sites I came across a number of people who called themselves liberal and who found the idea of Jesus dying for us to be abhorrent. Maybe they were actually a minority of those caling themselves liberals.

Regards, Samantha
Hi Samantha,
I think there may be many definitions of Liberal Christian - perhaps many definitions of Conservative Christian as well, I don't know for sure. THe liberal friends I hang around with embrace the death of Jesus, and don't find it abhorrent, so it's interesting (maybe alarming!) to hear of your experience.
Blessings to ya! :wave:
 
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elanor

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Understood, sjgore15. :) Sounds to me like some folks are out there giving liberal Christians a bad name. ;) I also believe that the point on which my faith as a Christian turns is that question of Jesus' found in Matthew 16:15:

He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

And my heart echoes Peter's answer in v. 16:

And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

My personal experience is that the people I know who would be labeled as liberal Christians are absolutely solid in their understanding and acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God who was crucified and rose again. My dear pastor, liberal by the definitions here, ends a prayer time every Sunday with the words, "In the strong name of Jesus, who is indeed the Christ!" That well expresses my own fervency about the person of Jesus. :)

(verses quoted from NASB)
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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sjgore15 said:
Dear Elanar and Chalice_thunder,

I did say 'generally'...

There's a spectrum of thought in every category. We all start our Christian life from different points, different personality types, different life experiences, and all of these will influence our views and subsequent growth. But I believe that our attitude to Jesus is the ultimate decider. Because of who he is and what he has done for us.

In discussion on other sites I came across a number of people who called themselves liberal and who found the idea of Jesus dying for us to be abhorrent. Maybe they were actually a minority of those caling themselves liberals.

Regards, Samantha

Liberal Christians have a wide spectrum of beliefs, just like any group.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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sjgore15 said:
Dear Elanar and Chalice_thunder,

I did say 'generally'...

There's a spectrum of thought in every category. We all start our Christian life from different points, different personality types, different life experiences, and all of these will influence our views and subsequent growth. But I believe that our attitude to Jesus is the ultimate decider. Because of who he is and what he has done for us.

In discussion on other sites I came across a number of people who called themselves liberal and who found the idea of Jesus dying for us to be abhorrent. Maybe they were actually a minority of those caling themselves liberals.

Regards, Samantha
Sometimes it's a matter of definition.

I find the idea of penal substitutionary atonement abhorrent, especially when it's reduced to "Barney sins so God punishes Jesus instead of Barney so that Barney gets let off". That doesn't mean I don't believe that Jesus died for us.
 
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angeljan

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WITH SO MANY DIFFERENT RELIGIONS AND SECTS OF CHRISTIANITY. I FIND THE BIBLE HAS ONE MAIN UNIVERSAL MESSAGE FOR CHRISTIANS. FAITH IN GOD.

LOVE AND FAITH AND FOLLOWING GOD. CHRISTIANS ALL BELIEVE IN THE BASICS, MOST DO ANYWAY. TO LOVE AND HAVE FAITH IN CHRIST AND FOLLOW HIS WILL.

THIS HAS BEEN THE LORDS MESSAGE FOR 2000 YEARS.

LOVE BRINGS FAITH, AND FAITH PRODUCES GOOD FRUITS. GOOD FRUITS PRODUCE HOPE.

ANGELJAN
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
Sometimes it's a matter of definition.

I find the idea of penal substitutionary atonement abhorrent, especially when it's reduced to "Barney sins so God punishes Jesus instead of Barney so that Barney gets let off". That doesn't mean I don't believe that Jesus died for us.

Hi Karl, you have raised a valuable point. Could you expand on what you mean when you say Jesus died for us?

As for Barney, I don't know about him but I believe Jesus offered himself as a substitute for me, Samantha, and I am eternally grateful to him for that (although I have to admit to my shame that I do not show my gratefulness anything like as much as I should).

S.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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I'll expand.

I used to see penal substitution as the be all and end all of explaining the Crucifixion. But I started to realise that for a number of reasons it doesn't work, at least not when seen as the way of understanding it.

1) It is not necessary. God does not have to do anything. He could just let us off if He wanted to. The language of Penal SA often makes out that God was forced to do something to satisfy both mercy and justice.

2) It fails. Penal SA does not satisfy justice. Justice is not done if another is punished in my place; indeed, a grave injustice is done. The problem of injustice is compounded, not resolved.

3) Under penal SA God does not truly forgive. Forgiveness requires that a person refrain from exacting the justice, satisfaction or vengeance due. In the Penal SA model, God does not forego it, but rather meets it out on someone else. God calls us to forgive others, but does not really forgive us.

4) It is not proportionate. If Jesus is bearing the sins of the entire world, does their total wrongness really only equal a few hours of agony, regardless of how severe that is? This is especially poignant when one remembers that proponents of SA often also believe that the just punishment for our sins is eternal punishment in Hell.

So - where do I go from here?

Well - if I may quote my own website:

Christianity has always held, from the earliest days, that Jesus was both fully God and fully Human. He was not God prancing around in a man-suit pretending to be human, but rather He ate, drank, slept, cried, rejoiced, farted and so forth. Nor was He just an extra special man with a few magic tricks and a hotline to heaven, but He really was God with man. Now, this is something of a tension, even a paradox, especially when ideas such as omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience are considered primary attributes of God, as clearly Jesus was none of these - if He had been, He could hardly have been human. No, He was God who had taken on the limitations of being human. There's lots of learned material on the incarnation, as this concept is known, and it's worth looking up.

I believe that Jesus' very person embodies reconciliation of God with man, inasmuch as Jesus is both. However, in order to fully reconcile all that being human entails, this God-man needs to suffer, at least in part, all the **** things that happen to people. Injustice, innocent suffering, persecution, intolerance, and so on. Therefore, only by Jesus' death in the manner in which it occurred is the reconciliation between God and man fully made.

There is a story told, entitled The Long Silence. In this, the scene is judgement day. And many people are unhappy that God is going to stand in judgement over them, for various reasons. They point out the injustices they have suffered, the pain they have experienced, and so on, whilst God, up in heaven, has not had to go through all this. Who the hell is He to pass judgement on them?

They get together and create a series of demands that God must go through before He can have any right to criticise, let alone judge, them. He must be born to a people dominated by an oppressive occupying force. His birth is to be shrouded in shame and scandal. He must be forced to go into hiding for his life whilst still a child. He must be betrayed by his closest friends, slandered and unjustly condemned. Then He must be tortured, and executed in a shameful and agonising manner. Then there is silence as it is realised that God has already served this sentence.

Now, whilst this story is told in the context of judgement, which I think is a shame, it illustrates the full meaning of the incarnation. This incarnational theology carries on beyond the Resurrection and onto the Ascension. The Ascension receives precious little attention from many apologists, and I think that this is a great shame. Jesus’ ascension as still Man and God takes humanity permanently into God. We have a stake in God’s nature. The upshot of all this is that everything it means to be human is to be found within God, and everything it means to be God has been found within a Man. Thus is our reconciliation with God made possible. What this means can only be worked out by the individual’s own walk in faith.
(http://freespace.virgin.net/karl_and.gnome/believe.htm)

This doesn't mean that penal SA is completely abandoned, but it does mean that I don't see it as a purely objective description of the Crucifixion. If it's helpful, hang on to it, but recognise it's only a model.
 
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Polycarp1

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Karl, that was really nice. I agree with you that the substitutionary penal atonement is an ugly theory, even as I realize that Jesus died for me, that His Atonement brought me into concord with God when I was kind of wandering and confused.

May I suggest something you are probably familiar with: TANSTAAFL. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch; somebody always pays. It can be Moses standing on Mount Pisgah, looking down on the Promised Land that he's spent his life leading his people to and will never himself enter. It can be a soldier giving his life in battle that his children will live free. And it can be Jesus sacrificing His life that his people may be reunited with God.
 
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Karl, thankyou for the reply. I had a look at your link. I'm not sure if I can write as well as you do but here goes.

I share your view that the crux is how we acknowledge Jesus in our lives, what place we give him as God. I don't believe that we have to sign up to some particular party line - I believe God knows our backgrounds, what we have been taught, etc and will make allowance.

I also am convinced that Jesus' death for us (by which I mean penal SA) is the means by which God forgives us, that it is a key that enables us to enter God's house. But many people never notice the key, they are just too busy exploring the many rooms of the house.

But maybe my role is to offer to those who, like me, have a strong sense of how they have contravened their own values, let alone God's, and are unforgiveable without his intervention. I cannot see how your system confers that to me - how is the transaction achieved? I hope this isn't a rude question, but can I ask if you feel a need to be forgiven by God?

Significant to me is the teaching of scripture, which I see you disagree with, so we are unlikely to resolve our different viewpoints, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

I wish you all the best. Samantha
 
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