What exactly is a God experience?

[Mud Hole]

Before I respond, I must say there's some great stuff coming from Antz!

Anyway, Jesus was reading from Isaiah, that much you recalled correctly. You have such a firm grasp on Scripture, that I just expected you to follow my post you responded to here. I apologize. Here it is:

"And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
And he closed the book"

Now if we find that same place in Isaiah, we see the very next line is "and the day of vengeance of our God." So that is preached along with the acceptable year of the Lord, referring to the year of Jubilee which only happens once every 50 years. Instead of reading that, Jesus closed the book. I think that fits this conversation perfectly, and answers your question rather well. (It was why God would do anything good for atheists)

I am familiar with both verses. I was just trying to understand the part about Jesus "closing the book" after reading it. That was confusing.

 

[Mud Hole]

Would you share your thoughts about why?

The bible is of no consequence to me, but I realize it is very important to you. I know that you revere it as the word of your God and that it is something that your life revolves around. Considering that, I know that anything related to it is an emotional topic and can create a lot of tension. The bible is not at all shy about calling unbelievers some things that I consider vile and nasty. Now I do realize there are a lot of unbelievers that seem to fit the descriptions perfectly, but not all. I have dealt with many Christians who are quick to use the terminology of the bible to intentionally hurt others to make themselves feel superior. I don't like to play those games, so when I get called an anti-christ, liar, deceiver, or other such biblical names, I will obviously have a red flag raised to warn me to avoid the topic. Many times I have to remember that since Christians regard the bible as true, then any description of us unbelievers in it must be true to them as well and trying to prove to you that I am not those horrible things becomes pointless. Knowing that you regard me that way automatically is disheartening to say the least.

I have read parts of it, but I think the book is inspired by the devil so I don't care much for what it says. The Bible on the other hand is comprised of real life events that have been witnessed by the human eye and recorded by human hand, and not buried and forgotten about along the way. Do you believe God redeemed Israel from Egypt or do you think that is that a fairy tale?

I think you might not understand the background of the Quran, but that is not of particular importance here. I was just using it for illustration to show how you would be in as obviously an odd position with a Muslim about their faith as I am here with you. I don't like to use the term fairy tale when discussing something that someone holds to be true and dear. That is rude. I don't personally think that it necessarily happened. I am not one to say it was impossible but just unlikely.

 

[oi_antz]

The bible is of no consequence to me, but I realize it is very important to you. I know that you revere it as the word of your God and that it is something that your life revolves around. Considering that, I know that anything related to it is an emotional topic and can create a lot of tension. The bible is not at all shy about calling unbelievers some things that I consider vile and nasty. Now I do realize there are a lot of unbelievers that seem to fit the descriptions perfectly, but not all. I have dealt with many Christians who are quick to use the terminology of the bible to intentionally hurt others to make themselves feel superior. I don't like to play those games, so when I get called an anti-christ, liar, deceiver, or other such biblical names, I will obviously have a red flag raised to warn me to avoid the topic. Many times I have to remember that since Christians regard the bible as true, then any description of us unbelievers in it must be true to them as well and trying to prove to you that I am not those horrible things becomes pointless. Knowing that you regard me that way automatically is disheartening to say the least.

I think it is just that you interpret our terminology in a negative light. If Jesus could say to Peter "Get behind me you satan", don't you think we all need to expect a hard-handed rebuke when God speaks to us? It's much easier than you think, if you were to just trust Him, obey Him, you'd find out why we Christians call Him King of kings. If you want to refuse His orders and walk around like this is your world then go ahead and eat that forbidden fruit. I tell you, it will kill you and you had better not look at me on judgment day.

I think you might not understand the background of the Quran, but that is not of particular importance here. I was just using it for illustration to show how you would be in as obviously an odd position with a Muslim about their faith as I am here with you. I don't like to use the term fairy tale when discussing something that someone holds to be true and dear. That is rude. I don't personally think that it necessarily happened. I am not one to say it was impossible but just unlikely.

I only understand that an angel claiming to be Gabriel dictated the words to Mohammad. If that is incorrect, please do correct me. As for Israel and Egypt, do you believe Israel was enslaved to Egypt according to Biblical accounts? How do you suppose they escaped with all the treasure if it wasn't for the power of God?

 

[Mud Hole]

I think it is just that you interpret our terminology in a negative light. If Jesus could say to Peter "Get behind me you satan", don't you think we all need to expect a hard-handed rebuke when God speaks to us? It's much easier than you think, if you were to just trust Him, obey Him, you'd find out why we Christians call Him King of kings. If you want to refuse His orders and walk around like this is your world then go ahead and eat that forbidden fruit.

I don't know how I could interpret those words any differently. When I get on to my sons for their behavior I do not call them stupid liars. What kind of parent would that make me? And would they ever listen to me again? I understand what you mean by the harsh rebuke. I don't find much value in it but I understand it.

No, it isn't easy. Not in the least. I am sorry that you don't understand that God belief is not a choice that is made on impulse and out of thin air. You can't just wake up one day and for no reason say "I am going to start believing in God today." It just doesn't work that way. Something has to spark a change in belief. This applies to anything, not just religion. If you believe books should be read from left to right, you will not change your mind unless something sparks that, such as moving to Israel. There is a difference in believing in God and realizing you are failing to obey him and not believing in a God and for obvious reasons not needing to obey something that isn't there. Based on the bible my only real sin is not believing in God and loving him as commanded and maybe praying without ceasing. That is nice and impossible. The NT seems to mirror how I live anyhow except I choose to be more tactful when dealing with others than the bible suggests. You are really trying to over simplify something that is more complex than it seems. I am not an unbeliever because I want to run around and sin like it is going out of style. I don't live that kind of lifestyle anyways. According to the bible I want to run around fornicating and murding people and feeding my children to Molech, none of which is true of me. I am not the monster the bible makes me out to be.

I tell you, it will kill you and you had better not look at me on judgment day.

Deal. According to this group that day will be in 7 days. Read their reasoning behind the scriptures and see what you think about it. They have an answer to the challenge that none will know the time and they seem to suggest that if you don't know the time that you are not really saved.
JUDGMENT DAY

I only understand that an angel claiming to be Gabriel dictated the words to Mohammad. If that is incorrect, please do correct me. As for Israel and Egypt, do you believe Israel was enslaved to Egypt according to Biblical accounts? How do you suppose they escaped with all the treasure if it wasn't for the power of God?

For the Quran, Essentially yes. But it is based on documented events and is also written by the hand of man or God because Mo was illiterate.

I don't suggest that the exodus was legitimate. Possible but not likely in my opinion. How did they escape with treasure? The same way rioters in a large city escape the police when they destroy businesses and set fire to cars. Numbers count. But then again, it could just be a story. There is nothing, that I am aware of at this time to prove any of it is accurate so it is open to speculation from both sides.

 

[oi_antz]

I don't know how I could interpret those words any differently. When I get on to my sons for their behavior I do not call them stupid liars. What kind of parent would that make me? And would they ever listen to me again?

I am not following you - are you saying that God calls you a stupid liar or that some Christians you listen to are calling you a stupid liar? Or is it even less direct that because of your identity your stereotype has been called a stupid liar? Do you think I regard you as a stupid liar?

I understand what you mean by the harsh rebuke. I don't find much value in it but I understand it.

The value of it is to be on side with God, therefore not being held to blame for things that you do that God doesn't like to have in His world.

No, it isn't easy. Not in the least. I am sorry that you don't understand that God belief is not a choice that is made on impulse and out of thin air. You can't just wake up one day and for no reason say "I am going to start believing in God today." It just doesn't work that way. Something has to spark a change in belief. This applies to anything, not just religion. If you believe books should be read from left to right, you will not change your mind unless something sparks that, such as moving to Israel. There is a difference in believing in God and realizing you are failing to obey him and not believing in a God and for obvious reasons not needing to obey something that isn't there.

Yes I have oversimplified it intentionally. The real force against you is quite strong because of the grossness of your sin. This is why a child finds it easier to believe in Jesus than an adult does, we have a lot more repenting to do before we can receive the gift of God's peace.

Based on the bible my only real sin is not believing in God and loving him as commanded and maybe praying without ceasing. That is nice and impossible. The NT seems to mirror how I live anyhow except I choose to be more tactful when dealing with others than the bible suggests. You are really trying to over simplify something that is more complex than it seems. I am not an unbeliever because I want to run around and sin like it is going out of style. I don't live that kind of lifestyle anyways. According to the bible I want to run around fornicating and murding people and feeding my children to Molech, none of which is true of me. I am not the monster the bible makes me out to be.

Interesting to note here that the Bible was written before you were conceived in the womb. What makes you take it so personally?

Deal. According to this group that day will be in 7 days. Read their reasoning behind the scriptures and see what you think about it. They have an answer to the challenge that none will know the time and they seem to suggest that if you don't know the time that you are not really saved.
JUDGMENT DAY

It may surprise you to know that I believe no-one knows who is saved or not except Jesus, who has the book of life. Any name He writes in there is His business. I do in fact hope that this prophecy of 21/05/2011 comes true only because I want world peace to come quick. Nevertheless, my wants contradict Jesus' wants which is to save every lost soul. "If you had a hundred sheep and one went astray wouldn't you leave the 99 safe while you went to fetch the lost one?". That's the type of shepherd He is.

For the Quran, Essentially yes. But it is based on documented events and is also written by the hand of man or God because Mo was illiterate.

Still, the spirit behind it is not the same Holy spirit that Jesus received upon His baptism.

I don't suggest that the exodus was legitimate. Possible but not likely in my opinion. How did they escape with treasure? The same way rioters in a large city escape the police when they destroy businesses and set fire to cars. Numbers count. But then again, it could just be a story. There is nothing, that I am aware of at this time to prove any of it is accurate so it is open to speculation from both sides.

Well now you are just speculating. Why do you think there are two sides to this story anyway? Is it just too inconvenient to accept the recorded history?

 

[Mud Hole]

I am not following you - are you saying that God calls you a stupid liar or that some Christians you listen to are calling you a stupid liar? Or is it even less direct that because of your identity your stereotype has been called a stupid liar? Do you think I regard you as a stupid liar?

Pretty much all of the above. Reading what the bible has to say about non-christians is something that I would not call another person. Just ugly and vile.

The value of it is to be on side with God, therefore not being held to blame for things that you do that God doesn't like to have in His world.

What are these things that I do that God doesn't like to have in his world?

Yes I have oversimplified it intentionally. The real force against you is quite strong because of the grossness of your sin. This is why a child finds it easier to believe in Jesus than an adult does, we have a lot more repenting to do before we can receive the gift of God's peace.

The grossness of my sin? How can you quantify my sin like that? A child finds it easier because they have no basis for the foundation of life. They believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, and monsters in their closets. You have a lot more repenting to do? Are you still repenting for the same things that you have already repented for? Or do you mean you continue to live in sin and have to repent afterwards?

Interesting to note here that the Bible was written before you were conceived in the womb. What makes you take it so personally?

I didn't quite understand this part. What makes you think I am taking it personally? The only thing to take personally is when someone uses what is in the bible to be cruel to another person. Otherwise I don't know why anyone would take it personally.

It may surprise you to know that I believe no-one knows who is saved or not except Jesus, who has the book of life. Any name He writes in there is His business. I do in fact hope that this prophecy of 21/05/2011 comes true only because I want world peace to come quick. Nevertheless, my wants contradict Jesus' wants which is to save every lost soul. "If you had a hundred sheep and one went astray wouldn't you leave the 99 safe while you went to fetch the lost one?". That's the type of shepherd He is.

No that does not surprise me. With the way many Christians act today, I would be surprised if any of them are saved according to the bible.
You hope the prophecy comes true? Do you realize that you not believing it will happen is cause to believe you are not saved and will not be included in that rapture? I don't know if you would really want it to be true under those circumstances.
Sheep? I am a business man. I will not leave a herd of sheep untended to look for one. That makes no fiscal sense to me. Sheep are very ignorant animals and require much attention because they don't protect themselves from harm. While I am gone the 99 would run off of a cliff because of the panic caused by one of them sneezing. I understand the point of the biblical passage though.

Still, the spirit behind it is not the same Holy spirit that Jesus received upon His baptism.

How can you identify that it isn't the same spirit or that the spirit of that belief is not superior to the one of your own? I don't see any difference in them. All gods are equal to me.

Well now you are just speculating. Why do you think there are two sides to this story anyway? Is it just too inconvenient to accept the recorded history?

Yes I was speculating. You asked what I thought about it. I even suggested that it is open to speculation from both sides. Inconvenient to accept the recorded history? The only recorded history of most of the bible, is the bible itself. That is where the problem lies for most of us. The two sides of the story is yours---it happened and mine---it probably didn't. Those are the two sides.

 

[oi_antz]

I see you are showing me your true colors, much appreciated

I'm going to show you where your fault is:

I didn't quite understand this part. What makes you think I am taking it personally? The only thing to take personally is when someone uses what is in the bible to be cruel to another person. Otherwise I don't know why anyone would take it personally.

This comment contradicts this comment:

Pretty much all of the above. Reading what the bible has to say about non-christians is something that I would not call another person. Just ugly and vile.

So it seems as though you believe the Bible calls you some ugly and vile names. What my question is is why do you decide to take these names personally? Don't you think every Christian has accepted at some time in their lives that God can call us ugly and vile names and we just have to wear it? Why do you think that just because I'm Christian that certain parts of the Bible apply only to you and not to me? That is discrimination you know.

What are these things that I do that God doesn't like to have in his world?

I am not qualified to do what is for Jesus to do, but let me list a few things and see whether your conscience yells at you:

1) I am the LORD your God who delivered you from bondage, you shall have no other gods before me.
2) You shall not make for yourself an image and bow down to it.
3) You shall not misuse my name.
4) You shall observe the Sabbath day.
5) You shall honor your mother and father.
6) You shall not murder (hate is from a heart that wants to murder)
7) You shall not commit adultery (lust is from an adulterous heart)
8) You shall not lie.
9) You shall not steal.
10) You shall not covet.

If you can say you check all those boxes then you might as well consider yourself a sheep in wolves clothing.

The grossness of my sin? How can you quantify my sin like that?

I can't but God can.

A child finds it easier because they have no basis for the foundation of life. They believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, and monsters in their closets.

Who fills their heads with such rubbish? It is the adults whose stories that come from thinking about untruths. This is why adults need to repent so much more than children because children wouldn't come up with half the rubbish us grown ups can think up.

You have a lot more repenting to do? Are you still repenting for the same things that you have already repented for? Or do you mean you continue to live in sin and have to repent afterwards?

I have already repented of the sin in my life. Sometimes I do things that my master wants me to do differently then I have to repent again. But no I can say that I have heeded my Lord's command, become as a child and have entered heaven. I now sit here reaching out to people who are looking for a hand to get through the narrow gate. If that is not what you are here for, I am sorry but I just have very little patience for other activities.

No that does not surprise me. With the way many Christians act today, I would be surprised if any of them are saved according to the bible.

Yes, I have been learning a lot lately about why Christianity isn't having the effect that Jesus intended. He knew it would happen though (not one stone will be left upon the other). We could discuss that sometime if you like.

You hope the prophecy comes true? Do you realize that you not believing it will happen is cause to believe you are not saved and will not be included in that rapture? I don't know if you would really want it to be true under those circumstances.

I am not afraid of His return, I know who I trust and I have pledged my life to honor Him.

Sheep? I am a business man. I will not leave a herd of sheep untended to look for one. That makes no fiscal sense to me. Sheep are very ignorant animals and require much attention because they don't protect themselves from harm. While I am gone the 99 would run off of a cliff because of the panic caused by one of them sneezing. I understand the point of the biblical passage though.

I think you like to just make excuses. You get the point so why argue about it?

How can you identify that it isn't the same spirit or that the spirit of that belief is not superior to the one of your own? I don't see any difference in them. All gods are equal to me.

I have come to know The Holy Spirit that is consistent with The Holy Bible. I can tell when other spirits are speaking. Not every god is equal, read this:

1 Samuel 5 (New Living Translation)

1 Samuel 5

The Ark in Philistia

1 After the Philistines captured the Ark of God, they took it from the battleground at Ebenezer to the town of Ashdod. 2 They carried the Ark of God into the temple of Dagon and placed it beside an idol of Dagon. 3 But when the citizens of Ashdod went to see it the next morning, Dagon had fallen with his face to the ground in front of the Ark of the Lord! So they took Dagon and put him in his place again. 4 But the next morning the same thing happened—Dagon had fallen face down before the Ark of the Lord again. This time his head and hands had broken off and were lying in the doorway. Only the trunk of his body was left intact. 5 That is why to this day neither the priests of Dagon nor anyone who enters the temple of Dagon in Ashdod will step on its threshold.

Yes I was speculating. You asked what I thought about it. I even suggested that it is open to speculation from both sides. Inconvenient to accept the recorded history? The only recorded history of most of the bible, is the bible itself. That is where the problem lies for most of us. The two sides of the story is yours---it happened and mine---it probably didn't. Those are the two sides.

So who drew the line in the sand? In everything you are saying here it seems to me that you just want to be correct for arguing against God. You can't win that fight, take it from me! God always has the last word!

 

[Mud Hole]

I see you are showing me your true colors, much appreciated

I am confused by this. What does this phrase mean in New Zealand? Here it is used as an insult, but you followed it by appreciation and a smile. I am not sure what this is related to or what you meant by it. Did I offend you? If I did then I apologize.

I'm going to show you where your fault is:


Originally Posted by Mud Hole

I didn't quite understand this part. What makes you think I am taking it personally? The only thing to take personally is when someone uses what is in the bible to be cruel to another person. Otherwise I don't know why anyone would take it personally.
​

This comment contradicts this comment:

Originally Posted by Mud Hole

Pretty much all of the above. Reading what the bible has to say about non-christians is something that I would not call another person. Just ugly and vile.
​

​

I don't think you are understanding what I am saying here. That isn't a contradiction. I don't take what the bible says about me personal. The words can be rude without having to take it personally. I wasn't alive when it was written. What is easier to take personal is what people say to me. I have been called these things enough that it isn't a big deal. It does get tiresome though. Just because they get those words from the bible doesn't make it a proper thing to say to someone, as far as I can gather. I was saying that since I find what it says to be rude, I wouldn't use it to say to someone else. There are other ways to get a point across. Insults make discussion difficult.

So it seems as though you believe the Bible calls you some ugly and vile names. What my question is is why do you decide to take these names personally? Don't you think every Christian has accepted at some time in their lives that God can call us ugly and vile names and we just have to wear it? Why do you think that just because I'm Christian that certain parts of the Bible apply only to you and not to me? That is discrimination you know.

I believe the bible does this, yes. Again, I am not offended by the bible saying it about me considering it is an old text written by people who could never know me, just when people use it against me personally. Why would a passage about unbelievers apply to you, a Christian?

I am not qualified to do what is for Jesus to do, but let me list a few things and see whether your conscience yells at you:

1) I am the LORD your God who delivered you from bondage, you shall have no other gods before me.
2) You shall not make for yourself an image and bow down to it.
3) You shall not misuse my name.
4) You shall observe the Sabbath day.
5) You shall honor your mother and father.
6) You shall not murder (hate is from a heart that wants to murder)
7) You shall not commit adultery (lust is from an adulterous heart)
8) You shall not lie.
9) You shall not steal.
10) You shall not covet.

If you can say you check all those boxes then you might as well consider yourself a sheep in wolves clothing.

Couldn't say I passed all of them. I am not sure how that can be quantitative though.
1. I have never had another god.
2. I have never literally done this. I think in biblical times this was literal. Since people no longer participate in worship this way, people have changed its meaning.
3. I don't know that I have ever done this. It is a little vague.
4. Which sabbath day? Saturday-original Shabbat or Sunday-when Christians celebrate it? I don't work on either day of the week. Those were the requirements.
5. I am sure there are many times I have not done this.
6. No. Can't say I haven't thought about it with no itent of acting on it though.
7. If you consider lust of your spouse inside of marriage as adultery then yes. Outside of marriage it is not adultery.
8. I gave up on this when I grew up. It serves no real purpose.
9. No.
10 No.


I can't but God can.[/quote] If he wants to do that then that is fine by me.

Who fills their heads with such rubbish? It is the adults whose stories that come from thinking about untruths. This is why adults need to repent so much more than children because children wouldn't come up with half the rubbish us grown ups can think up.

children have wonderful imaginations. My sons come up with wild things that I could never conceive of. They were not of my doing.

I have already repented of the sin in my life. Sometimes I do things that my master wants me to do differently then I have to repent again. But no I can say that I have heeded my Lord's command, become as a child and have entered heaven. I now sit here reaching out to people who are looking for a hand to get through the narrow gate. If that is not what you are here for, I am sorry but I just have very little patience for other activities.

I am here for understanding and possibly to learn something new. That is all I can really tell you.

Yes, I have been learning a lot lately about why Christianity isn't having the effect that Jesus intended. He knew it would happen though (not one stone will be left upon the other). We could discuss that sometime if you like.

I am open to discussing anything. I think we just need to find an understanding of eachother first. I get the impression that you are expecting worse from me than I am intending to present. I am not here to bicker and argue.

I think you like to just make excuses. You get the point so why argue about it?

I wasn't arguing anything. You asked me a question. I was just answering it. Please don't take my posts the wrong way.

I have come to know The Holy Spirit that is consistent with The Holy Bible. I can tell when other spirits are speaking. Not every god is equal, read this:

That is interesting.

So who drew the line in the sand? In everything you are saying here it seems to me that you just want to be correct for arguing against God. You can't win that fight, take it from me! God always has the last word!

This is part of the reason that I chose not to answer a few questions before. It is hard to word things to where they will be understood in the intended way. I am not arguing for or against God. I was just explaining why I believe as I do so that we can both understand where we are both at.

 

[oi_antz]

I am confused by this. What does this phrase mean in New Zealand? Here it is used as an insult, but you followed it by appreciation and a smile. I am not sure what this is related to or what you meant by it. Did I offend you? If I did then I apologize.

No, it's just that you began the thread by sounding like you were guarding us from the extent of your atheism, now you have started to speak quite openly as an atheist. I find it is more honest so I gave you a smiley face to thank you.

I don't think you are understanding what I am saying here. That isn't a contradiction. I don't take what the bible says about me personal. The words can be rude without having to take it personally. I wasn't alive when it was written. What is easier to take personal is what people say to me. I have been called these things enough that it isn't a big deal. It does get tiresome though. Just because they get those words from the bible doesn't make it a proper thing to say to someone, as far as I can gather. I was saying that since I find what it says to be rude, I wouldn't use it to say to someone else. There are other ways to get a point across. Insults make discussion difficult.

Yes, I am aware that many people in this world of ours actually do misuse the Bible. This verse shows us how the Bible is meant to be used:

2 Timothy 3:16

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I believe the bible does this, yes. Again, I am not offended by the bible saying it about me considering it is an old text written by people who could never know me, just when people use it against me personally.

Well you know many parts of the Bible apply equally to the nature of humanity in the modern day as they did when they were written. On the other hand many parts of the Bible apply specifically to events that do lie in the past. Context is an important part of getting the right grasp on scripture, as I'm sure you understand very well.

Why would a passage about unbelievers apply to you, a Christian?

The old nature which still lurks within me and sometimes threatens to take me over, but the Lord is toughening me up with many challenges. So there is still something to learn from these passages. Can you quote one of these passages that you think don't apply to me and lets see?

children have wonderful imaginations. My sons come up with wild things that I could never conceive of. They were not of my doing.

Yes we are all capable of listening to demons. There is only one spirit of truth though, that is the one that Jesus represented perfectly and the one that the saints are trained to listen to perfectly too.

I am here for understanding and possibly to learn something new. That is all I can really tell you.

This is part of the reason that I chose not to answer a few questions before. It is hard to word things to where they will be understood in the intended way. I am not arguing for or against God. I was just explaining why I believe as I do so that we can both understand where we are both at.

Right then, I'll be looking for opportunities to help with that.

 

[Mud Hole]

No, it's just that you began the thread by sounding like you were guarding us from the extent of your atheism, now you have started to speak quite openly as an atheist. I find it is more honest so I gave you a smiley face to thank you.

I was guarding it and still trying to do so, but finding it ever more difficult with the line of questioning and failure to find an understanding with how I say it. Some people are more sensitive than others. While you may have been hardened up to deal with some topics, others reading this thread may not be. I try to take their feelings into consideration since this is not an atheist site. In my daily life I keep religious opinions to myself because they serve no purpose for others. What do I have to teach a believer about atheism, other than a bit of tolerance? I am not the type of atheist that believes in converting others to what I think is right. I find some value in religion for some people. Most atheists do not. I would like to be able to live alongside believers without all of the hate and prejudice that I normally witness.

Yes, I am aware that many people in this world of ours actually do misuse the Bible. This verse shows us how the Bible is meant to be used:

2 Timothy 3:16

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:?

This reminds me of a passage that I personally like, particularly verse 10, because I find it beneficial to everyone and not just believers It is most of the 3rd chapter of James.

Well you know many parts of the Bible apply equally to the nature of humanity in the modern day as they did when they were written. On the other hand many parts of the Bible apply specifically to events that do lie in the past. Context is an important part of getting the right grasp on scripture, as I'm sure you understand very well.

Yes there are many scriptures that are not dated. I think the only thing that makes it difficult are the ones that were for a specific activity in a specific period of the world. Many things done in that time are not done in this time and vice versa. People want to still use these scriptures although they do not apply to something from today. They take these scriptures and they make a new definition for them to make it sound like it would apply. Even if they want to use the old testament they have to remember "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you neither shall ye diminish ought from it." Those who alter meanings intentionally are doing this.

The old nature which still lurks within me and sometimes threatens to take me over, but the Lord is toughening me up with many challenges. So there is still something to learn from these passages. Can you quote one of these passages that you think don't apply to me and lets see?

I will try to accomodate this. Now I am not saying you can't learn something by reading it. I was just saying it is not about you, since you are a believer. I will just give a few for now.

I will start with the one that made you assume I am anti-Christian. Anti-Christian being derived from anti-Christ. Please forgive me for not typing all of these out. I assume you have a bible and I only have memory for the KJV unless there is a certain word used in another translation that has been brought to my attention that may not line up with the KJV.
This first one would be in first john 2:22 with regards to who is anti-Christ. Two others would be John 10:26 and first corinthians 14:22. These are three that come to mind that would not apply to you right off hand, not that you can't use them for understanding. As far as the discrimination goes... According to Peter, God is not a respecter of persons.

Yes we are all capable of listening to demons. There is only one spirit of truth though, that is the one that Jesus represented perfectly and the one that the saints are trained to listen to perfectly too.

I have never heard from either so I am not qualified to comment on this.

Right then, I'll be looking for opportunities to help with that.

Thanks. I appreciate that.

 

[razeontherock]

This reminds me of a passage that I personally like, particularly verse 10, because I find it beneficial to everyone

I will start with the one that made you assume I am anti-Christian. Anti-Christian being derived from anti-Christ.
This first one would be in first john 2:22 with regards to who is anti-Christ. Two others would be John 10:26 and first corinthians 14:22.

Hi guys! First I want to comment on what I find to be an amazing discussion btw you 2. Antz I've watched amazing growth in you which is heart warming, and our newbie here is the most unique professing atheist I've ever encountered. Do you think he is really an atheist? He's asking what a God experience is, and simultaneously demonstrating what I've come to recognize as the most significant God experience there is, which is the Word guiding our path. Look at the opening statement of his quote I snipped! There's just no way he doesn't take James 3 to heart, and that's some hard preaching.

I feel sheepish about pointing out 1 Cor 14:22 refers to tongues, and I can't see how it relates here. MH, did you have something else in mind? No worries, you're better at furnishing chapter and verse references than I'll ever be, and I'm solid in the Word.

I also have to ask you MH, why you took offense at Antz' use of the term anti-Christ? You seem to understand his intent properly. Forgive me if you 2 hashed this out already, long thread ...

 

[Mud Hole]

Hi guys! First I want to comment on what I find to be an amazing discussion btw you 2. Antz I've watched amazing growth in you which is heart warming, and our newbie here is the most unique professing atheist I've ever encountered.

Why am I unique? Because I try to be respectful of your beliefs? Because I have investigated something prior to rejecting it? I think you have had way too many experiences with atheists who are abusive and don't bother to research what they think they are rejecting. How can you decide what to believe and what not to believe without checking into it first?

Do you think he is really an atheist?

Hmm. I will assume you weren't trying to call me a liar. I know what I believe and don't believe. I am secure in that.

He's asking what a God experience is, and simultaneously demonstrating what I've come to recognize as the most significant God experience there is, which is the Word guiding our path.

What is wrong with asking questions? How else can you learn things that aren't able to be documented? Personal experiences are something you have to ask about personally. The word guiding our path? Does this mean because I choose to live more conservatively than most atheists? I have been this way by personal choice. It had nothing to do with the bible.

Look at the opening statement of his quote I snipped! There's just no way he doesn't take James 3 to heart, and that's some hard preaching.

I can't appreciate that there are a few things in the bible that are beneficial for people to consider? I didn't take the passage to heart. It just agrees with how I believe about dealing with other people and am glad it was included in scripture because it seems like something that more people should consider.

I feel sheepish about pointing out 1 Cor 14:22 refers to tongues, and I can't see how it relates here. MH, did you have something else in mind? No worries, you're better at furnishing chapter and verse references than I'll ever be, and I'm solid in the Word.

The reference to speaking in tongues has nothing to do with why I used it as an example. He asked for scriptures from the bible that may not apply to him since he is a Christian. Those were the first ones to come to mind and it was not necessary to make an enormous list for him. The tongues wasn't the issue. The issue was that it was specific that it was NOT inteded for believers.

I actually have a harder time recalling verse numbers than you think. I have to count them off to figure out which verse number it is. I know the word the verse starts on and the word that ends it so I have to go through it and then count how many it is. I have made mistakes many times but most of it is from miscounting. So if you see a really odd verse then feel free to ask about it. It may be that I mentally counted it off wrong. Instead of 21 it may be 22 or 20. Hope that makes more sense.

I also have to ask you MH, why you took offense at Antz' use of the term anti-Christ? You seem to understand his intent properly. Forgive me if you 2 hashed this out already, long thread ...

Because I am not anti anything. I am not opposed to Christians or Christianity. If I felt this way I would say that I hate Christians or I hate Jesus or I hate the bible or some such nonsense. I don't hate anything and am not opposed to it. Many people are anti-Christ. This I can see for myself. I do not see myself as one of them and find that most people use the term anti-Christ or anti-Christian as an insult only. It is the same as calling me the son of Satan or telling me that I am doing the devil's work even though I am doing the exact same thing you are but because I don't believe in God then it has to be of the devil. While I believe in no such entity, I know that the person saying it regards it as something very terrible so that makes it an insult. What I understand is that Christians believe the bible and if the bible says it then it must be true. Well some books say Christians are mentally ill or delusional. Should I call you these nasty things? I would think not. That is not proper form for a useful discussion. I don't know how Antz meant to use it. I just have to be careful that I don't place myself in a position of this becoming something ugly or some debate. I don't want this to be a negative experience for any of the participants here or anyone viewing our discussion.

I hope that clears it up a bit.

 

[razeontherock]

Why am I unique? Because I try to be respectful of your beliefs? Because I have investigated something prior to rejecting it? I think you have had way too many experiences with atheists who are abusive and don't bother to research what they think they are rejecting. How can you decide what to believe and what not to believe without checking into it first?

I have encountered some very intelligent and educated atheists here, who claim they reject Christianity primarily due to reading the Bible. Yet everything they post on that subject screams out distortion, misrepresentation, and the like. You are unique in that I have yet to see you twist anything, or even to misuse it.

Hmm. I will assume you weren't trying to call me a liar. I know what I believe and don't believe. I am secure in that.

Relax, it was a joke. Based on the above, maybe you get it now? You show what I have only known as a characteristic of a believer.

What is wrong with asking questions? How else can you learn things that aren't able to be documented? Personal experiences are something you have to ask about personally. The word guiding our path? Does this mean because I choose to live more conservatively than most atheists? I have been this way by personal choice. It had nothing to do with the bible.

Questions are good! So you happen to line up with certain key Scriptures that are very difficult to accomplish. Not because you choose to obey the Bible, but just because it is your disposition to think that way, and you agree with it regardless where you encounter it. I call that integrity.

I have encountered other atheists with decent morals, but even most Christians don't do so well with James 3, regardless of beliefs.

I can't appreciate that there are a few things in the bible that are beneficial for people to consider? I didn't take the passage to heart. It just agrees with how I believe about dealing with other people and am glad it was included in scripture because it seems like something that more people should consider.

That's what I mean when I say "take it to heart." There are some portions of Scripture that are easy for me. Then there are other other things that aren't. Maybe you don't try to line up with anything you find in it that's difficult for you?

Because I am not anti anything. I am not opposed to Christians or Christianity.

So then you disagree with the Bible, where John defines "anti-Christ?"

 

[Mud Hole]

I have encountered some very intelligent and educated atheists here, who claim they reject Christianity primarily due to reading the Bible. Yet everything they post on that subject screams out distortion, misrepresentation, and the like. You are unique in that I have yet to see you twist anything, or even to misuse it.

Rejecting Christianity, as an atheist, because of the bible doesn't make much sense to me. I think it is more along the lines that they reject the concept of God based on reading the bible and this makes even less sense. This is what I find to be the most common amongst other atheists. Many don't spend a lot of time reading the various religious texts that are out there. I have explored a great many of them and there are many others I must check in to. The only reason that I personally reject Christianity is because I personally reject the concept of a creational God. Because to believe in Christianity you must first believe in God. Once you believe in God then you have to decide which religion is right, if any of them are. There are steps between Atheism and Christianity that are huge gaps to understanding. Atheists and Christians alike have to move in the same number of steps, only opposite directions, to reach an understanding of eachother. Atheists have to move to agnosticism, to theism, to a particular religion. Christians have to move to theism to agnosticism to atheism. The large number of gaps make it hard for us to come to a basic understanding and considering the bible to Christianity ignores the gap of Theism when talking to an atheist.

Relax, it was a joke. Based on the above, maybe you get it now? You show what I have only known as a characteristic of a believer.

I know it was a joke, but at my expense. Can you share what the characteristics are that you compare to a believer?

Questions are good! So you happen to line up with certain key Scriptures that are very difficult to accomplish. Not because you choose to obey the Bible, but just because it is your disposition to think that way, and you agree with it regardless where you encounter it. I call that integrity.

Thanks

I have encountered other atheists with decent morals, but even most Christians don't do so well with James 3, regardless of beliefs.

It is hard to not turn when you are faced with opposition. I came to appreciate my life more than most people do and I want to make the best of it. Good communication with others benefits me and betters the life that I appreciate.

That's what I mean when I say "take it to heart." There are some portions of Scripture that are easy for me. Then there are other other things that aren't. Maybe you don't try to line up with anything you find in it that's difficult for you?

I don't think so. I think that some things in the bible line up with how I think and I appreciate them because of it. The things that do not line up with how I think I don't appreciate and find little regard for. It isn't that I don't try to line up with it because it is hard. It is only because it doesn't make sense to me with regards to how I believe life should be run.

So then you disagree with the Bible, where John defines "anti-Christ?"

I only disagree with the blanket concept of it. I really dislike things being painted with an enormously large brush. If I were to say that all Christians do something or believe something, that could not be accurate. That would be assuming that I know all Christians and what they do or believe. I think the bible can be very blanketing and that is a turn off to me. Most of the time it is because it identifies me in ways that I do not see myself. I do, however, realize some, if not many people fit this description.

 

[razeontherock]

The only reason that I personally reject Christianity is because I personally reject the concept of a creational God.

Ok, I have a question for you. Did the ground under your feet take power to get there in the first place? Can you not accept that the Biblical concept of God simply refers to that?

Can you share what the characteristics are that you compare to a believer?

Well in this case understanding the Word, rightly dividing it. Even w/o the ability to count verses by number

It isn't that I don't try to line up with it because it is hard. It is only because it doesn't make sense to me with regards to how I believe life should be run.

Yes, this is what I meant to say. I worded it in ambiguous fashion, sorry 'bout that.

I only disagree with the blanket concept of it. I really dislike things being painted with an enormously large brush. I think the bible can be very blanketing and that is a turn off to me. Most of the time it is because it identifies me in ways that I do not see myself.

Now that last sentence is not only interesting, but directly relates to your OP. If when you read Scripture you see that it does NOT ID you, what is the problem? IOW, can you expound on, or give an example of, it identifying you in a way you do not see yourself? (This is really significant to your main question)

 

[oi_antz]

I was guarding it and still trying to do so, but finding it ever more difficult with the line of questioning and failure to find an understanding with how I say it. Some people are more sensitive than others. While you may have been hardened up to deal with some topics, others reading this thread may not be. I try to take their feelings into consideration since this is not an atheist site. In my daily life I keep religious opinions to myself because they serve no purpose for others. What do I have to teach a believer about atheism, other than a bit of tolerance? I am not the type of atheist that believes in converting others to what I think is right. I find some value in religion for some people. Most atheists do not. I would like to be able to live alongside believers without all of the hate and prejudice that I normally witness.

This reminds me of a passage that I personally like, particularly verse 10, because I find it beneficial to everyone and not just believers It is most of the 3rd chapter of James.

Okely dokely.

Yes there are many scriptures that are not dated. I think the only thing that makes it difficult are the ones that were for a specific activity in a specific period of the world. Many things done in that time are not done in this time and vice versa. People want to still use these scriptures although they do not apply to something from today. They take these scriptures and they make a new definition for them to make it sound like it would apply. Even if they want to use the old testament they have to remember "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you neither shall ye diminish ought from it." Those who alter meanings intentionally are doing this.

Again it is a demonstration of the Bible being misused.

I will try to accomodate this. Now I am not saying you can't learn something by reading it. I was just saying it is not about you, since you are a believer. I will just give a few for now.

I will start with the one that made you assume I am anti-Christian. Anti-Christian being derived from anti-Christ. Please forgive me for not typing all of these out. I assume you have a bible and I only have memory for the KJV unless there is a certain word used in another translation that has been brought to my attention that may not line up with the KJV.
This first one would be in first john 2:22 with regards to who is anti-Christ. Two others would be John 10:26 and first corinthians 14:22. These are three that come to mind that would not apply to you right off hand, not that you can't use them for understanding. As far as the discrimination goes... According to Peter, God is not a respecter of persons.

Ok, I can see here what you meant, why does it bother you though to be called an anti-christ since that is the identity you have chosen?

I have never heard from either so I am not qualified to comment on this.

I would reword your statement to say you have never "recognised" either.

Thanks. I appreciate that.

Thank you too, I really hope we can make progress together some time.

 

[Mud Hole]

Ok, I have a question for you. Did the ground under your feet take power to get there in the first place? Can you not accept that the Biblical concept of God simply refers to that?

I don't claim to be an expert or authority on things not yet known. I don't know how much education you have in the sciences or where your educational focus lies, so speaking on this, at this point, may not take us anywhere. I will just say that I can't prove or disprove creation or evolution. In short, I don't know. I can accept that the bible's concept of God refers to the creation of the world and what is on it. That doesn't make it true, but I do acknowledge that it attempts to explain creation. The quran also does this, as well as other religious texts.

Well in this case understanding the Word, rightly dividing it. Even w/o the ability to count verses by number

Umm study to shew thyself approved? lol

Now that last sentence is not only interesting, but directly relates to your OP. If when you read Scripture you see that it does NOT ID you, what is the problem? IOW, can you expound on, or give an example of, it identifying you in a way you do not see yourself? (This is really significant to your main question)

The only problem with it not identifying me with its blanket concepts is because I have to live in this world and that means I have to live with people who believe every word of the bible. If they read these blanket statements and take them to heart then they treat me accordingly. There is confusion in scripture between how to treat people who do not believe and some people interpret scripture differently. Some believe that acting with love means being respectful and understanding, others believe that acting with love means beating people over the head, resorting to name calling and there are the ones who make fools of themselves on the highest level.

example? maybe first timothy 5:8. That one really bothers me because I am a family man.

 

[Mud Hole]

Ok, I can see here what you meant, why does it bother you though to be called an anti-christ since that is the identity you have chosen?

I didn't choose the identity of anti-christ. It seems to have been chosen for me.

I would reword your statement to say you have never "recognised" either.

True. Thank you for the correction.

Thank you too, I really hope we can make progress together some time.

As do I. I appreciate all that you have shared thus far.

 

[razeontherock]

I will just say that I can't prove or disprove creation or evolution. In short, I don't know.

But my question puts no divide between Ev and Cr. Either way, it took power. No?

 

[Mud Hole]

But my question puts no divide between Ev and Cr. Either way, it took power. No?

Power of atomic and molecular bonds, yes. Beyond that, it is a mystery.