What exactly is a God experience?

[Mud Hole]

I think if you notice it, then it's God speaking to you. It is no coincidence that I am looking for shoes all my life in the 2nd hand shops and never find any my size and then one day just before I go to the shoe shop to buy a new pair I call into the sallies first, and lo! A pair for $2 brand new, someone must have got a Christmas present they didn't like and when winter came, out they went.

Do you think it would be less God speaking to you if every time you went there you found a pair in your size? Maybe every time you are not there then there is not a pair in your size but a pair shows up the day you go there? Similar things happen to me. I have a company that installs emergency equipment for fire trucks, ambulances, and police cars. Sometimes I get departments that just don't have enough money for the equipment they need. The equipment is so expensive that even with all of the discounts I can give them, I still can't afford to equip them for what they have to work with. But then I will hound a few manufacturers and I end up with a very unexpected discount because they don't want to lose my business. The vehicles get equipped, I make enough to keep my doors open and the economy is still stimulated. I don't consider this as a way of God speaking to me. Maybe if the equipment showed up on my doorstep with no cause for the delivery, I would be more convinced. But then I also wonder why God would speak to an atheist. How would that glorify him? Is it not like a parent giving their child candy after a tantrum and reinforcing the behavior? If not believing is something that he is against, shouldn't I have a miserable life forcing me to need him to improve things?

No you don't understand. Every time you ask a question and get an answer you can either get closer or further from understanding the truth about God. This is the meaning of this verse:

Is this why Christians appear to avoid questioning their beliefs after they find God? Makes sense the way you say it. I am not sure how you got that from that scripture. I see it differently. Of course I can always be wrong.

Note that there will come a time when you get so frustrated by your incapacity to understand this "truth about God" that you will have no option but to turn to God for healing. There's no escaping God, even after death you must answer to Him.

In my mind I already have the truth about God. I just don't seem to have the same version of truth as many other people. My only frustration lies in why other people believe. Someone has to be wrong obviously and how we can view the same things and come to completely different conclusions is fascinating.

I don't know what you were expecting anyway. It wasn't a prayer to give you a reality of God's presence in your life, it was a prayer that meant, well, read it again and see what you think you should be expecting after making a prayer like this. Remember who we are addressing: He is the One who created the universe and the atom simply by telling it to happen.

It wasn't so much what I was expecting from it. Atheists expect nothing from prayer. I was just showing appreciation for taking time to offer it. Not acknowledging something that someone puts a lot of effort in to for your own benefit makes you a jerk.

Just make sure you tell me if you think I have said something wrong

Can do.

 

[razeontherock]

I also wonder why God would speak to an atheist. How would that glorify him?

It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance.

 

[Mud Hole]

It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance.

Then why does everyone preach hellfire and damnation? Most Christians I know use this as their basis for belief. Fear of the consequences of your actions is not the same thing. How do you personally rationalize God's goodness when it is contrasted so harshly with infinite punishment for finite action? Not a trap by the way, so don't get uneasy. I don't play those games. I am just picking your brain a little.

 

[razeontherock]

No I agree, these are reasonable questions, and difficult ones that deserve exploring! First, let me point out the Bible never speaks of "infinite punishment for finite crimes." So let's remove that from the equation, ok? Yes, I do understand where the concern comes from, and I've also seen people struggle with the concept, coming up with ways to explain it. What I haven't seen anyone do is address this in ways that are based on what C trusts as being revealed by G-d.

Let's look at a relevant passage:

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

So this language tells us we should stare in amazement at this stark contrast, all coming from the same God. Now as far as preaching hellfire and damnation, I'm not sure that would be effective to unbelievers, but I think it does have it's place in Church, which is where most "preaching" occurs. Or did you specifically mean something else?

 

[Mud Hole]

No I agree, these are reasonable questions, and difficult ones that deserve exploring! First, let me point out the Bible never speaks of "infinite punishment for finite crimes." So let's remove that from the equation, ok? Yes, I do understand where the concern comes from, and I've also seen people struggle with the concept, coming up with ways to explain it. What I haven't seen anyone do is address this in ways that are based on what C trusts as being revealed by G-d.

Thanks for not getting your feathers perked. I know a lot of atheists raise this topic and it isn't for the best of reasons.

Let's look at a relevant passage:

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

If one continues in goodness they get goodness from God. That seems to back my question of why God would speak to atheists. If I am not continuing in goodness then I get the "otherwise" part which says...I shall be cut off.

So this language tells us we should stare in amazement at this stark contrast, all coming from the same God. Now as far as preaching hellfire and damnation, I'm not sure that would be effective to unbelievers, but I think it does have it's place in Church, which is where most "preaching" occurs. Or did you specifically mean something else?

It isn't only in church. It is used as a tool to try to convert most of us at some point. It is plastered all over television, on the radio, in books, local magazines or newspapers. I live in the south and can't pick up a paper without seeing many of the articles mentioning faith or God. There is a lot more God talk in the secular world than most Christians realize. I guess it takes being a non-Christian for it to stand out.

 

[razeontherock]

If one continues in goodness they get goodness from God. That seems to back my question of why God would speak to atheists. If I am not continuing in goodness then I get the "otherwise" part which says...I shall be cut off.

Actually it's not saying that! This section is written to believers ...

I live in the south and can't pick up a paper without seeing many of the articles mentioning faith or God. There is a lot more God talk in the secular world than most Christians realize. I guess it takes being a non-Christian for it to stand out.

Apparently it takes being in the South? I've rarely ventured that way, and it is different.

 

[Mud Hole]

It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance.

I know who the scripture was directed to but you used it when I asked about why God would speak to atheists. You said the above which either means you meant "us" to be Christians or "us" as everyone. The first doesn't make sense because we were talking about speaking to atheists, not Christians. So now I am confused.

 

[razeontherock]

You do have a good point! I applied that Scripture unevenly. Here's why i think it's appropriate:

come Judgment Day, all this will be moot. Until then, Jesus closed the book after reading this is the acceptable year of the Lord's favor, before he got to the part about Judgment. I think we are to take His cue, and it is still true that His goodness is what leads men to repentance.

 

[oi_antz]

Then why does everyone preach hellfire and damnation? Most Christians I know use this as their basis for belief. Fear of the consequences of your actions is not the same thing. How do you personally rationalize God's goodness when it is contrasted so harshly with infinite punishment for finite action? Not a trap by the way, so don't get uneasy. I don't play those games. I am just picking your brain a little.

I'll tell you my opinion. Jesus teaches that when He returns He will sort every person from every nation into one of two categories "sheep" and "goats". The sheep represent those who have been generally Christ-like in their life, while the goats are those who have been too selfish to behave like Christ. Then each person's life is judged according to what they have done and the sheep go to live eternally with Jesus as their king while the goats go to the lake of fire.

Now, because a repentant Christian has a type of love for their neighbors that is much like the love they have for the Lord, we treat our neighbors as Christ would treat them. Therefore, if we can see that they are not right before God we will tell them that their sins will cost their eternal life and the only way you can have everlasting life is to repent.

I think it is important to notice that Jesus doesn't make a distinction that "only Christians" will have everlasting life, but His people will be drafted from all nations, which could include atheists because after all, which of us can say that a person is not truly Christian if they simply believe they are atheist? So I would begin now to ask you Mud Hole, why don't you just want to obey what Jesus says so you can carry your cross and fight the good fight for Jesus? You do know of course that if you aren't with Jesus then you are against Him? I see you like to think you are neutral, but some of your comments have been arguing in favor of atheism, which means you are working against Jesus. I would say that you need to think about what it is that has caused you to be so anti-Christian and maybe that will show you some areas where you need to repent.

Finally, I don't know where the Bible says those in the lake of fire will be eternally tormented. I know what John 3:16 says "will not perish but have everlasting life", which indicates that the human soul will perish into nothing in the lake of fire, this is quite close to what you atheist's believe that there is no life after death.

 

[oi_antz]

Hi Mud Hole, I see you are quite bent on denying that coincidence is God's work. Let's see if I can answer your questions sufficiently, I don't expect you to accept what I say though since I am attacking your personal sense of reality by sharing my sense of reality.

Do you think it would be less God speaking to you if every time you went there you found a pair in your size?

Yes.

Maybe every time you are not there then there is not a pair in your size but a pair shows up the day you go there?

Yes, it means someone had to make a decision maybe 3 or 4 days ago to get rid of the sandals, the sallies truck had to arrive to collect them, the sorting department had to decide to put them out that day and I had to decide to call in just in case my greatest hope came true. This sort of coincidence is like arguing evolution vs creation, of course it's God!

Similar things happen to me. I have a company that installs emergency equipment for fire trucks, ambulances, and police cars. Sometimes I get departments that just don't have enough money for the equipment they need. The equipment is so expensive that even with all of the discounts I can give them, I still can't afford to equip them for what they have to work with. But then I will hound a few manufacturers and I end up with a very unexpected discount because they don't want to lose my business. The vehicles get equipped, I make enough to keep my doors open and the economy is still stimulated. I don't consider this as a way of God speaking to me.

That is not how God works.

Maybe if the equipment showed up on my doorstep with no cause for the delivery, I would be more convinced.

That is how God works.

But then I also wonder why God would speak to an atheist. How would that glorify him? Is it not like a parent giving their child candy after a tantrum and reinforcing the behavior? If not believing is something that he is against, shouldn't I have a miserable life forcing me to need him to improve things?

It is none of my business how God treats atheist's. You speak as though you want to be God's enemy! Why not consider yourself a lost sheep?

Is this why Christians appear to avoid questioning their beliefs after they find God?

I think so, yes. I definitely use new information to support my faith in God. I see that unbelievers tend to use the same information to support their faith against God.

Makes sense the way you say it. I am not sure how you got that from that scripture. I see it differently. Of course I can always be wrong.

If we don't agree, there is only one of three reasons:

• I don't understand it
• You don't understand it
• We both don't understand it

Of course, I know what it means to me, this is what it means:
You have decided once to not believe in God. This has caused you to use information against having faith in God instead of using information for having faith in God. This means that when you hear the truth of God it doesn't go into your heart but instead you make up an excuse as to why you should argue against it. This is what it means to "harden your ears" and "close your eyes". The more this happens, the harder your heart gets and the harder it gets to listen to the truth of God and accept it. This is why God says all you need to do is turn to Him (acknowledge He is right and you are wrong) and He will heal you and you will suddenly understand all this truth about God. You'll be able to hear with ears and see with eyes that have been healed of their callousness, you'll be Christian! You'll be able to know everything that Jesus wants you to know and you will understand why I believe that what I say is true. Why doesn't that idea sound good to you?

In my mind I already have the truth about God. I just don't seem to have the same version of truth as many other people. My only frustration lies in why other people believe. Someone has to be wrong obviously and how we can view the same things and come to completely different conclusions is fascinating.

Notice that this comes down to maturity in Christ:

1 Corinthians 3:3-5 (New International Version)

3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

So many Christians are too immature to find agreement, they cause division by arguing their own ideas instead of Christ's great truth. How do we get mature? By repenting. So any divisions within the church (and outside it for that matter) are due solely to people who would rather love their sin than to love the truth. Does this prick your heart? I say it should. I'll say it again. If we don't agree then it is because one of us prefers to love our sin instead of truth.

It wasn't so much what I was expecting from it. Atheists expect nothing from prayer. I was just showing appreciation for taking time to offer it. Not acknowledging something that someone puts a lot of effort in to for your own benefit makes you a jerk.

Surely when you read that prayer there was a part of your heart that agree'd with what I said?

Can do.

Please do, I must remain repentant to death.

 

[Mud Hole]

You do have a good point! I applied that Scripture unevenly. Here's why i think it's appropriate:

come Judgment Day, all this will be moot. Until then, Jesus closed the book after reading this is the acceptable year of the Lord's favor, before he got to the part about Judgment. I think we are to take His cue, and it is still true that His goodness is what leads men to repentance.

He closed the book after reading something from Isaiah? I don't understand this comment. I apologize if this makes me sound dense, but could you elaborate a bit on it?

 

[Mud Hole]

I had to think on your last two posts for a bit before responding. The mood seems to have shifted and I have to remind myself that many of the responses are based on biblical text and should not conform to my reasoning on what is a proper way to deal with someone. So since I refuse to come to a Christian forum and come across as anti-Christian, I may have to rethink some positions on talking points here.

I'll tell you my opinion. Jesus teaches that when He returns He will sort every person from every nation into one of two categories "sheep" and "goats". The sheep represent those who have been generally Christ-like in their life, while the goats are those who have been too selfish to behave like Christ. Then each person's life is judged according to what they have done and the sheep go to live eternally with Jesus as their king while the goats go to the lake of fire.

I am familiar with this.

Now, because a repentant Christian has a type of love for their neighbors that is much like the love they have for the Lord, we treat our neighbors as Christ would treat them. Therefore, if we can see that they are not right before God we will tell them that their sins will cost their eternal life and the only way you can have everlasting life is to repent.

I also understand this.

I think it is important to notice that Jesus doesn't make a distinction that "only Christians" will have everlasting life, but His people will be drafted from all nations, which could include atheists because after all, which of us can say that a person is not truly Christian if they simply believe they are atheist? So I would begin now to ask you Mud Hole, why don't you just want to obey what Jesus says so you can carry your cross and fight the good fight for Jesus? You do know of course that if you aren't with Jesus then you are against Him? I see you like to think you are neutral, but some of your comments have been arguing in favor of atheism, which means you are working against Jesus. I would say that you need to think about what it is that has caused you to be so anti-Christian and maybe that will show you some areas where you need to repent.

I was lost somewhere in the first sentence. Why do I not obey what Jesus says? Any response that is truthful for me to give here would only be seen as anti-Christian so I will have to refrain from answering that. My comments seem in favor of atheism because I am an atheist. The same way that a Christian's comments are in favor of Christianity and a Muslim's comments are in favor of Islam. I do try very hard to be accomodating when talking to Christians about their faith. I don't seek to be offensive or insulting. If that isn't good enough to remain neutral then I am sorry that I can't be more accomodating other than refusing to answer certain questions.The working against Jesus and being anti-Christ part is scriptural so I understand why it is brought up but I find it to be used too often as an insult so I will let that one be.

 

[Mud Hole]

Hi Mud Hole, I see you are quite bent on denying that coincidence is God's work. Let's see if I can answer your questions sufficiently, I don't expect you to accept what I say though since I am attacking your personal sense of reality by sharing my sense of reality.

I apologize if I gave you that impression.

Yes, it means someone had to make a decision maybe 3 or 4 days ago to get rid of the sandals, the sallies truck had to arrive to collect them, the sorting department had to decide to put them out that day and I had to decide to call in just in case my greatest hope came true. This sort of coincidence is like arguing evolution vs creation, of course it's God!

ok

It is none of my business how God treats atheist's. You speak as though you want to be God's enemy! Why not consider yourself a lost sheep?

Again. This stuff is scriptural and I can't answer much of this without being insulting to the Christian faith so I will refrain.

Because I am not a lost sheep.

I think so, yes. I definitely use new information to support my faith in God. I see that unbelievers tend to use the same information to support their faith against God.

ok

If we don't agree, there is only one of three reasons:

• I don't understand it
• You don't understand it
• We both don't understand it

ok

Of course, I know what it means to me, this is what it means:
You have decided once to not believe in God. This has caused you to use information against having faith in God instead of using information for having faith in God. This means that when you hear the truth of God it doesn't go into your heart but instead you make up an excuse as to why you should argue against it. This is what it means to "harden your ears" and "close your eyes". The more this happens, the harder your heart gets and the harder it gets to listen to the truth of God and accept it. This is why God says all you need to do is turn to Him (acknowledge He is right and you are wrong) and He will heal you and you will suddenly understand all this truth about God. You'll be able to hear with ears and see with eyes that have been healed of their callousness, you'll be Christian! You'll be able to know everything that Jesus wants you to know and you will understand why I believe that what I say is true. Why doesn't that idea sound good to you?

Another I have to refrain from. We don't get very far this way.

So many Christians are too immature to find agreement, they cause division by arguing their own ideas instead of Christ's great truth. How do we get mature? By repenting. So any divisions within the church (and outside it for that matter) are due solely to people who would rather love their sin than to love the truth. Does this prick your heart? I say it should. I'll say it again. If we don't agree then it is because one of us prefers to love our sin instead of truth.

I suppose so.

Surely when you read that prayer there was a part of your heart that agree'd with what I said?

Will have to refrain from this one as well. I did appreciate the sentiment of it though.

 

[oi_antz]

I had to think on your last two posts for a bit before responding. The mood seems to have shifted and I have to remind myself that many of the responses are based on biblical text and should not conform to my reasoning on what is a proper way to deal with someone. So since I refuse to come to a Christian forum and come across as anti-Christian, I may have to rethink some positions on talking points here.

Well you know that Jesus taught the disciples quite a lot that wasn't recorded, that truth is conveyed to His present day disciples by The Holy Spirit. So it is The Holy Spirit which helps us to understand the truth of God as Jesus taught. Perhaps what I am saying just has that "Holy Spirit tone" about it because it corresponds to the Biblical information you are familiar with, I should certainly hope that you wouldn't find any of my comments to be contradictory to the Bible and I would appreciate correction if you do.

I am familiar with this.

I also understand this.

I was lost somewhere in the first sentence. Why do I not obey what Jesus says? Any response that is truthful for me to give here would only be seen as anti-Christian so I will have to refrain from answering that. My comments seem in favor of atheism because I am an atheist. The same way that a Christian's comments are in favor of Christianity and a Muslim's comments are in favor of Islam. I do try very hard to be accomodating when talking to Christians about their faith. I don't seek to be offensive or insulting. If that isn't good enough to remain neutral then I am sorry that I can't be more accomodating other than refusing to answer certain questions.The working against Jesus and being anti-Christ part is scriptural so I understand why it is brought up but I find it to be used too often as an insult so I will let that one be.

Ok, well if you feel that is the best thing to do then may the Lord allow us to continue some other time

 

[oi_antz]

I apologize if I gave you that impression.

ok

Again. This stuff is scriptural and I can't answer much of this without being insulting to the Christian faith so I will refrain.

Because I am not a lost sheep.

ok

ok

Another I have to refrain from. We don't get very far this way.

I suppose so.

Will have to refrain from this one as well. I did appreciate the sentiment of it though.

You don't make a very good point by restraining your point of view and we cannot establish peace by refusing to communicate. I would appreciate you to share your thoughts rather than saying "I can't tell you what I think". Take my word for it, I have had some pretty bad thoughts about Christians in my lifetime

 

[Mud Hole]

Well you know that Jesus taught the disciples quite a lot that wasn't recorded, that truth is conveyed to His present day disciples by The Holy Spirit. So it is The Holy Spirit which helps us to understand the truth of God as Jesus taught. Perhaps what I am saying just has that "Holy Spirit tone" about it because it corresponds to the Biblical information you are familiar with, I should certainly hope that you wouldn't find any of my comments to be contradictory to the Bible and I would appreciate correction if you do.

On the contrary. I find you to be fairly spot on with regards to how unbelievers are regarded in the bible. I have to remember sometimes that bible followers don't view what is in the bible as distastefully as unbelievers do. I don't know if you have ever read the Quran but the way it refers to Christians may give you the same awkward feeling by talking to a Muslim about their faith and your lack of their faith.

 

[Mud Hole]

You don't make a very good point by restraining your point of view and we cannot establish peace by refusing to communicate. I would appreciate you to share your thoughts rather than saying "I can't tell you what I think". Take my word for it, I have had some pretty bad thoughts about Christians in my lifetime

I know it doesn't make a good point. Where this is going did not look promising. I have watched enough forums to know when it is about to start taking a downward turn and I have enjoyed all of the conversations here, thus far, and would like to count this as a good experience where I have learned something. I am just trying to avoid being offensive since it appears that you believe that is what I was doing. I don't have bad thoughts about Christians. That is where you misunderstand me. Not being a Christian does not mean I think ill of Christians. I admire a great many of them. Just because I don't believe the bible to be correct does not mean I do not respect that you do believe that way. I don't know if you read any of the other forums here where the unbelievers can run in and out of each thread but it can be quite the eye full and I find myself disgusted by many of them. I am not that kind of guy and it is easier for me to bow out of a conversation with respect and to be viewed as a coward who will not respond that it is for me to be disrespectful and bitter and then only feel like a louse later for it.

 

[razeontherock]

He closed the book after reading something from Isaiah? I don't understand this comment. I apologize if this makes me sound dense, but could you elaborate a bit on it?

Before I respond, I must say there's some great stuff coming from Antz!

Anyway, Jesus was reading from Isaiah, that much you recalled correctly. You have such a firm grasp on Scripture, that I just expected you to follow my post you responded to here. I apologize. Here it is:

"And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
And he closed the book"

Now if we find that same place in Isaiah, we see the very next line is "and the day of vengeance of our God." So that is preached along with the acceptable year of the Lord, referring to the year of Jubilee which only happens once every 50 years. Instead of reading that, Jesus closed the book. I think that fits this conversation perfectly, and answers your question rather well. (It was why God would do anything good for atheists)

 

[oi_antz]

I have to remember sometimes that bible followers don't view what is in the bible as distastefully as unbelievers do.

Would you share your thoughts about why?

I don't know if you have ever read the Quran but the way it refers to Christians may give you the same awkward feeling by talking to a Muslim about their faith and your lack of their faith.

I have read parts of it, but I think the book is inspired by the devil so I don't care much for what it says. The Bible on the other hand is comprised of real life events that have been witnessed by the human eye and recorded by human hand, and not buried and forgotten about along the way. Do you believe God redeemed Israel from Egypt or do you think that is that a fairy tale?

 

[oi_antz]

I am just trying to avoid being offensive since it appears that you believe that is what I was doing. I don't have bad thoughts about Christians. That is where you misunderstand me. Not being a Christian does not mean I think ill of Christians. I admire a great many of them.

Surely you can express your ideas without being offensive?

I am not that kind of guy and it is easier for me to bow out of a conversation with respect and to be viewed as a coward who will not respond that it is for me to be disrespectful and bitter and then only feel like a louse later for it.

Well it's up to you of course, I just like to put my hand to the plow. If you have trouble expressing your ideas without being disrespectful and bitter then you are probably right to leave it for another occasion.