LDS What exactly do you believe?

[Ran77]

I did not twist the scripture, I quoted it verbatim from the KJV of the Bible. Later Paul wrote:

(New Testament | Philippians 3:12 - 15)

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

I am reminded of Genesis 3: 5

5. For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

[truefiction1]

"The power to bind and loose was given to all the Apostles, according to Holy Tradition and Scripture (John 20:22-23)" - I affirmed this already.

"The keys are the authority to bind and loose sins."-This is where you err. The keys are not this. To prove it, note that in the same Gospel according to Matthew (the only Gospel where the "keys" are mentioned Mt.(16:18-19)) two chapters later in (18:18) the power to bind and loose sins was granted to the rest of the Apostles however there is no mention of the "keys" given to the other Apostles.

"There is no other authority other than Christ Himself" - Of course Christ Himself is the ultimate Authority. No Catholics would dream of placing a man equal with God. This was a silly straw man argument. And to that sill point: you then are a hypocrite to deny authority to the Apostolic priesthood, because even you yourself acknowledge the authority of the Patriarchs belonging to the Eastern Orthodox Church.


"nor the consensus of the Church fathers indicates that bishops who succeeded Peter received any "keys", or that Peter alone had the keys"- You err again. Here are some references from the Early Church Fathers on this:
Clement of Alexandria
“[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? ‘Behold, we have left all and have followed you’ [Matt. 19:27; Mark 10:28]” (Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 21:3–5 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian
“[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church” (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

The Letter of Clement to James
“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed” (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

Origen
“f we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things [Jesus] said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]. For it is no small difference that Peter received the keys not of one heaven but of more, and in order that whatsoever things he binds on earth may be bound not in one heaven but in them all, as compared with the many who bind on earth and loose on earth, so that these things are bound and loosed not in [all] the heavens, as in the case of Peter, but in one only; for they do not reach so high a stage with power as Peter to bind and loose in all the heavens” (Commentary on Matthew 13:31 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian of Carthage
“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
“The Lord is loving toward men, swift to pardon but slow to punish. Let no man despair of his own salvation. Peter, the first and foremost of the apostles, denied the Lord three times before a little servant girl, but he repented and wept bitterly” (Catechetical Lectures 2:19 [A.D. 350]).

“[Simon Magus] so deceived the city of Rome that Claudius erected a statue of him. . . . While the error was extending itself, Peter and Paul arrived, a noble pair and the rulers of the Church, and they set the error aright. . . . [T]hey launched the weapon of their like-mindedness in prayer against the Magus, and struck him down to earth. It was marvelous enough, and yet no marvel at all, for Peter was there—he that carries about the keys of heaven [Matt. 16:19]” (ibid., 6:14).

“In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9:32–34]” (ibid., 17:27).

Ephraim the Syrian
“[Jesus said:] Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on Earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples. Through you I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is that life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the firstborn in my institution so that, as the heir, you may be executor of my treasures. I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, I have given you authority over all my treasures” (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).

Pope Damasus I
“Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it” (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome
“‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division” (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]).

Pope Innocent I
“In seeking the things of God . . . you have acknowledged that judgment is to be referred to us [the pope], and have shown that you know that is owed to the Apostolic See [Rome], if all of us placed in this position are to desire to follow the apostle himself [Peter] from whom the episcopate itself and the total authority of this name have emerged” (Letters 29:1 [A.D. 408]).

Council of Ephesus
“Philip, presbyter and legate of [Pope Celestine I] said: ‘We offer our thanks to the holy and venerable synod, that when the writings of our holy and blessed pope had been read to you . . . you joined yourselves to the holy head also by your holy acclamations. For your blessedness is not ignorant that the head of the whole faith, the head of the apostles, is blessed Peter the apostle’” (Acts of the Council, session 2 [A.D. 431]).

“Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome] said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’” (ibid., session 3).


Now, moving on to my final point:
Maybe you just skimmed over my response to the mormon but here I will quote myself again so you can read it and see that I affirmed everything you said here. The only thing you disagree with is the symbol of authority that was given to St.Peter uniquely because the successors to the Apostles in the Eastern Orthodox Churches later went in schism with Rome... But here was my initial post that you responded to:

The keys were given only to St.Peter.
Not to anyone else. The power of binding and loosing sins was later given to the rest of the Apostles but the keys alone went to St.Peter and nobody else...
And the answer to your question is yes. Yes, the Catholic Church has the metaphoric keys because St.Peter himself received them, and his successor received them from him, then his successor received them, on and on, the successors to the Episcopal seat at Rome all received these keys... Only the humble can believe it...

Rome is in schism, actually.

 

[Peter1000]

The power to bind and loose was given to all the Apostles, according to Holy Tradition and Scripture (John 20:22-23), starting with Peter, and through them to the Church by the agency of the bishops who were the successors of the Apostles. The keys are the authority to bind and loose sins. They merely metaphorically point to this authority. There is no other authority other than Christ Himself, Who is the only Head of His body, the Church. Neither Scripture, nor the consensus of the Church fathers indicates that bishops who succeeded Peter received any "keys", or that Peter alone had the keys, or that even if he did, that the keys were ever the property of anyone other than Peter, as first among the Apostles.

The scriptures only tell us that Jesus gave Peter the keys. One of the power of the keys was to bind and loose. The other apostles were given the power to bind and loose but only Peter received the keys.

The scriptures do not indicate that these keys were handed down to a successor, or head of the apostles after Peter's death. What does that imply?

The Divine nature of the Word of God does not undergo change, because it is, has always been, and always will be perfect beyond all of human comprehension. This we know from Scripture and from what both the Jews and Christians have always believed with regards to God. The Divine nature did not mix itself with the nature of a human being (creature). Only the Divine Person became flesh ("and the Word became Flesh"). The eternal Word of God, being that He is the very Cognitive aspect of God the Father, most certainly did know the exact moment in time that the end will arrive. But answering in the way that is proper for his humanity, he did not tell his disciples what it is not good for men to know. This is why when He was asked about these things before His Ascension, Jesus replied, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority" (Acts 1:7). In this case you'll notice that He did not say "I don't know", rather, He said "It is not for you to know", because He, being the very Logos (Reasoning facility) of the Father, most certainly knows exactly how and when He will bring these things about, in accordance with the will of the Father.

There must have been some kind of mixing because according to Mark, Jesus says, even he did not know the day, or the hour.
Mark 13:32 King James Version (KJV)
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

The Acts scripture you quoted was after he was resurrected, and now he knew that date. So something happened between Mark 13 and Acts 1. Tell me what you think happened.

 

[mmksparbud]

You can talk about where oh where are those long lost keys, but unless you have them, nothing is recognized in heaven. IOW you are not recognized as a son of God. So mock JS as much as you wish, but find out which church has those keys and then have their clergy with proper authority, take care of you.

How very twisted!! This is a very sad teaching.

Joh_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Php_2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn_3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn_3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Nothing in the bible says a thing about if you don't have some sort of key you can not be recognized as a son of God!! That is a total lie! But it does say this ---


Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God reads your heart---not your keys.

 

[Deus Vult!]

Rome is in schism, actually.

This is your rebuttal to all the evidence I put forward to refute your false claims?
By the way you mention that Rome went into schism with Eastern Orthodoxy? This is odd to me that you say this as if Eastern Orthodoxy is itself united, which it isn't. Their is schism right now between the Patriarch of Moscow and the Patriarch of Constantinople...
Anyways, the larger united group cannot go into schism with the smaller disorganized and disagreeing group. Further, I posit to you that the reasons for the "schism" were political rather than theological, and that both the East as well as the West are to blame for splitting the very Body of Christ for any reason whatsoever. Given that all parties involved knew of the Holy command of the Lord Himself that we all be one as He is one with His Father. Even the command of all the Apostles to agree with one another and to be united in all things, like minded, one.
The Lord will judge this very conversation between us and you know that we ought to be one no matter the cost. We should care enough about the unity of the Church to let go of everything in history and unite... But some care more about being right than they do being one.

 

[Deus Vult!]

How very twisted!! This is a very sad teaching.

Joh_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Php_2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn_3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn_3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Nothing in the bible says a thing about if you don't have some sort of key you can not be recognized as a son of God!! That is a total lie! But it does say this ---


Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God reads your heart---not your keys.

"Nothing in the bible says a thing about if you don't have some sort of key you can not be recognized as a son of God!!..."
- Nobody said anything of the sort.
Apparently Joseph Smith claimed that the keys described in Mt (16:18-19) were actually given to him physically... quite laughable.

 

[Peter1000]

The keys were given only to St.Peter.
Not to anyone else. The power of binding and loosing sins was later given to the rest of the Apostles but the keys alone went to St.Peter and nobody else...
And the answer to your question is yes. Yes, the Catholic Church has the metaphoric keys because St.Peter himself received them, and his successor received them from him, then his successor received them, on and on, the successors to the Episcopal seat at Rome all received these keys... Only the humble can believe it...

The Lord said, "... and I also say that you are Petros (masculine form for "Rock") and on this petra (feminine generic for "Rock") I will build my Church..."
St.Peter is referred to in Aramaic as "Cephas" the Aramaic transliterated "Rock".
Petros and Petra can only mean "Rock", for the Greek word for "stone" is "Lithos" or plural "Lithoi".
To this very day St.Peters Basilica is built directly upon the ancient tomb of St.Peter himself. In fact the high altar within the Basilica is directly above St.Peters tomb.
You should read it again.

Peter was also the bishop of Antioch before he was the bishop of Rome. When he left Antioch he ordained his successor, Evodius (53-69ad). Did Peter hand down his keys to Evodius?

Jesus would never build his church upon any man, even as powerful as Peter was.

The true church was built upon the foundation of Jesus and the apostles and prophets. Does not indicate that bishops were part of the foundation. (Ephesians 2:20) And it certainly does not indicate that Peter was the only foundation element.

We believe that Jesus is the rock upon which the church is built, and because Peter received the information from God which was in heaven, and not from anyone on earth, Jesus was talking about revelation from Jesus from heaven as being the rock upon which the church would stand, certainly not any man.

 

[Deus Vult!]

The scriptures only tell us that Jesus gave Peter the keys. One of the power of the keys was to bind and loose. The other apostles were given the power to bind and loose but only Peter received the keys.

The scriptures do not indicate that these keys were handed down to a successor, or head of the apostles after Peter's death. What does that imply?



There must have been some kind of mixing because according to Mark, Jesus says, even he did not know the day, or the hour.
Mark 13:32 King James Version (KJV)
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

The Acts scripture you quoted was after he was resurrected, and now he knew that date. So something happened between Mark 13 and Acts 1. Tell me what you think happened.

You err right from the start thinking that our Lord pulled out a physical set of keys handing them to St. Peter... Laughable. So you think that a seen (visible) set of keys can unlock the unseen abode of God Almighty (Heaven)?
You must be sharper than this.

 

[He is the way]

No Orthodox Christian would tell you that you are not meant for "theosis" (which is to become a full partaker of God's nature, by God's power). The ideas you are defending are not untrue. They only fail to be entirely true because of this false sense of Who and what God is that is being upheld by LDS theology. One cannot truly become God if one is mislead with regards to the knowledge of God (and no one is guiltless in the process of being mislead).

"God became man, so that man might become God". This is Orthodox Christian teaching on salvation. But Who is God? Or even more accurately, "Who is Jesus Christ", the God Who became man so that man might become God? This is an essential question, and knowing the only correct answer is just as essential. The original and ancient Church has the only correct answer, and she Loves Truth and will not surrender to falsehood. She never has and never will.

You said: "God became man, so that man might become God"

I like this and I agree with that saying. Thank you so much.

 

[truefiction1]

This is your rebuttal to all the evidence I put forward to refute your false claims?
By the way you mention that Rome went into schism with Eastern Orthodoxy? This is odd to me that you say this as if Eastern Orthodoxy is itself united, which it isn't. Their is schism right now between the Patriarch of Moscow and the Patriarch of Constantinople...
Anyways, the larger united group cannot go into schism with the smaller disorganized and disagreeing group. Further, I posit to you that the reasons for the "schism" were political rather than theological, and that both the East as well as the West are to blame for splitting the very Body of Christ for any reason whatsoever. Given that all parties involved knew of the Holy command of the Lord Himself that we all be one as He is one with His Father. Even the command of all the Apostles to agree with one another and to be united in all things, like minded, one.
The Lord will judge this very conversation between us and you know that we ought to be one no matter the cost. We should care enough about the unity of the Church to let go of everything in history and unite... But some care more about being right than they do being one.

I didn't put forth any false claims. The Church was always understood to be comprised of sister Churches, with each church allotted a certain primacy of honor due to the nature of each of their sees. Rome's primacy within the Church was not doubted by most, but supremacy over the Church by any bishop, or any Apostle, for that matter, is not supported overall by the complete witness of history, and not even in the Book of Acts, where we see that since the Council at Jerusalem was presided over by the Apostle James, because that was his see, not Peters. The Council spoke for the Church, not Peter. "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us", is what they said to affirm the decisions of the Council. They did not say, "because he who has the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven is here and has said so".

No bishop has supremacy "over" the Church, because the Church is the Body of Christ upon which is the Head: Christ. Nobody is supreme over Christ, and thus, the Church. Yet at certain times Rome's own ecclesiological proclamations have catapulted papal primacy within the Church to the level of supremacy "over" the Church. This claim can be nothing but false, and is thus rightly rejected by the Church.

Rome forced the Church's hand, and the Church is schismatic? The Orthodox Christian Church is more united than the millions of Roman whose unity is merely symbolized by an earthly city called Rome. Our unity is in the Holy Spirit, which we do have in abundance, regardless of what things may look like to anyone on the outside. Yet, even if one looks closely enough the presence of God among us is unmistakable. If we seem to be in such foul disagreement at times, know that it is because we care enough about truth to guard it at all costs. Even the Apostle Paul and the Holy Evangelist Mark were at terrible odds with one another, and had to separate, remember? Yet they are both saints, nonetheless.

But Roman and Orthodox differences are not the topic to discuss here. This is for another place and time. I merely corrected your own assertions about Roman supremacy because they should not be left unquestioned. And, quite frankly, the errors put forth by Rome are just as obvious to the Orthodox as the errors of the church of latter day saints are to just about everyone except for members of the LDS, and we perceive their harmfulness just the same. Why, otherwise, would we not simply go along with those errors for the sake of reconciling? Sometimes, it's not about who's right and who's wrong. Sometimes it's about doing the will of God with regard to oneself, even if it hurts.

 

[Deus Vult!]

Peter was also the bishop of Antioch before he was the bishop of Rome. When he left Antioch he ordained his successor, Evodius (53-69ad). Did Peter hand down his keys to Evodius?

Jesus would never build his church upon any man, even as powerful as Peter was.

The true church was built upon the foundation of Jesus and the apostles and prophets. Does not indicate that bishops were part of the foundation. (Ephesians 2:20) And it certainly does not indicate that Peter was the only foundation element.

We believe that Jesus is the rock upon which the church is built, and because Peter received the information from God which was in heaven, and not from anyone on earth, Jesus was talking about revelation from Jesus from heaven as being the rock upon which the church would stand, certainly not any man.

"Peter was also the bishop of Antioch before he was the bishop of Rome. When he left Antioch he ordained his successor, Evodius (53-69ad). Did Peter hand down his keys to Evodius?"- This is a moot and irrelevant point.
No he didn't hand any keys at all to anyone because the keys were not physically able to handed off. They were never of a physical nature to begin with. You are quite obvious with your straw men that you are putting forward. Look into history, Popes have begun episcopal seats all over the world, it is obvious that his next successor would not sit in those episcopal seats that they had founded. Maybe you should read through these also:

Clement of Alexandria
“[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? ‘Behold, we have left all and have followed you’ [Matt. 19:27; Mark 10:28]” (Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 21:3–5 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian
“[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church” (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

The Letter of Clement to James
“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed” (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

Origen
“f we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things [Jesus] said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]. For it is no small difference that Peter received the keys not of one heaven but of more, and in order that whatsoever things he binds on earth may be bound not in one heaven but in them all, as compared with the many who bind on earth and loose on earth, so that these things are bound and loosed not in [all] the heavens, as in the case of Peter, but in one only; for they do not reach so high a stage with power as Peter to bind and loose in all the heavens” (Commentary on Matthew 13:31 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian of Carthage
“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
“The Lord is loving toward men, swift to pardon but slow to punish. Let no man despair of his own salvation. Peter, the first and foremost of the apostles, denied the Lord three times before a little servant girl, but he repented and wept bitterly” (Catechetical Lectures 2:19 [A.D. 350]).

“[Simon Magus] so deceived the city of Rome that Claudius erected a statue of him. . . . While the error was extending itself, Peter and Paul arrived, a noble pair and the rulers of the Church, and they set the error aright. . . . [T]hey launched the weapon of their like-mindedness in prayer against the Magus, and struck him down to earth. It was marvelous enough, and yet no marvel at all, for Peter was there—he that carries about the keys of heaven [Matt. 16:19]” (ibid., 6:14).

“In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9:32–34]” (ibid., 17:27).

Ephraim the Syrian
“[Jesus said:] Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on Earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples. Through you I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is that life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the firstborn in my institution so that, as the heir, you may be executor of my treasures. I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, I have given you authority over all my treasures” (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).

Pope Damasus I
“Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it” (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome
“‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division” (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]).

Pope Innocent I
“In seeking the things of God . . . you have acknowledged that judgment is to be referred to us [the pope], and have shown that you know that is owed to the Apostolic See [Rome], if all of us placed in this position are to desire to follow the apostle himself [Peter] from whom the episcopate itself and the total authority of this name have emerged” (Letters 29:1 [A.D. 408]).

Council of Ephesus
“Philip, presbyter and legate of [Pope Celestine I] said: ‘We offer our thanks to the holy and venerable synod, that when the writings of our holy and blessed pope had been read to you . . . you joined yourselves to the holy head also by your holy acclamations. For your blessedness is not ignorant that the head of the whole faith, the head of the apostles, is blessed Peter the apostle’” (Acts of the Council, session 2 [A.D. 431]).

“Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome] said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’” (ibid., session 3).

And finally, your last paragraph, this one:
"We believe that Jesus is the rock upon which the church is built, and because Peter received the information from God which was in heaven, and not from anyone on earth, Jesus was talking about revelation from Jesus from heaven as being the rock upon which the church would stand, certainly not any man."

Just so you know this is the way every single Protestant church must read this passage in order to circumvent it's true meaning. A meaning which obviously points to the one Apostle who received -by our Lord Himself - a symbol of his authority among the rest of the Apostles. An authority that he clearly showcases all throughout the Book of Acts, an authority that has been shown to the world throughout every century down to this very day in the Bishop of Rome. Unfortunately, this authority you choose to reject, because if you submitted to it you would have to leave your false belief system and admit that you have been wrong about so much. Having led many people into error as well.
I invite you to accept the true Gospel and all the beauty found in her. So that you can read it and not have to do mental gymnastics to try and square it with the obvious errors found in mormonism. God is not the Author of such confusion that you find in mormonism and you know it in your heart.

 

[He is the way]

You err right from the start thinking that our Lord pulled out a physical set of keys handing them to St. Peter... Laughable. So you think that a seen (visible) set of keys can unlock the unseen abode of God Almighty (Heaven)?
You must be sharper than this.

The keys that Peter received were not physical keys, they were keys of the authority to act in God's name to bind or loose on earth:

(New Testament | Matthew 16:19)

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The twelve receive these keys:

(New Testament | Matthew 18:18)

18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

[Deus Vult!]

I didn't put forth any false claims. The Church was always understood to be comprised of sister Churches, with each church allotted a certain primacy of honor due to the nature of each of their sees. Rome's primacy within the Church was not doubted by most, but supremacy over the Church by any bishop, or any Apostle, for that matter, is not supported overall by the complete witness of history, and not even in the Book of Acts, where we see that since the Council at Jerusalem was presided over by the Apostle James, because that was his see, not Peters. The Council spoke for the Church, not Peter. "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us", is what they said to affirm the decisions of the Council. They did not say, "because he who has the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven is here and has said so".

No bishop has supremacy "over" the Church, because the Church is the Body of Christ upon which is the Head: Christ. Nobody is supreme over Christ, and thus, the Church. Yet at certain times Rome's own ecclesiological proclamations have catapulted papal primacy within the Church to the level of supremacy "over" the Church. This claim can be nothing but false, and is thus rightly rejected by the Church.

Rome forced the Church's hand, and the Church is schismatic? The Orthodox Christian Church is more united than the millions of Roman whose unity is merely symbolized by an earthly city called Rome. Our unity is in the Holy Spirit, which we do have in abundance, regardless of what things may look like to anyone on the outside. Yet, even if one looks closely enough the presence of God among us is unmistakable. If we seem to be in such foul disagreement at times, know that it is because we care enough about truth to guard it at all costs. Even the Apostle Paul and the Holy Evangelist Mark were at terrible odds with one another, and had to separate, remember? Yet they are both saints, nonetheless.

But Roman and Orthodox differences are not the topic to discuss here. This is for another place and time. I merely corrected your own assertions about Roman supremacy because they should not be left unquestioned. And, quite frankly, the errors put forth by Rome are just as obvious to the Orthodox as the errors of the church of latter day saints are to just about everyone except for members of the LDS, and we perceive their harmfulness just the same. Why, otherwise, would we not simply go along with those errors for the sake of reconciling? Sometimes, it's not about who's right and who's wrong. Sometimes it's about doing the will of God with regard to oneself, even if it hurts.

"It seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us"- True this was said, who spoke first at the council and set the entire tone for what St.James' eventual decision was? Answer: St. Peter.

"Rome's primacy within the Church was not doubted by most, but supremacy over the Church by any bishop, or any Apostle, for that matter, is not supported overall by the complete witness of history, and not even in the Book of Acts, where we see that since the Council at Jerusalem was presided over by the Apostle James, because that was his see, not Peters."- To this very day it is not just the Pope ruling and dictating such and such, it is along with the college of Cardinals and Bishops that Synods are called, Councils are called, ruled on etc, the Bishop himself is referred to as the "first among equals." It shows that you have not studied too much really into the various ways the Catholic Church views the Pope and his functionality and purpose.

"Yet at certain times Rome's own ecclesiological proclamations have catapulted papal primacy within the Church to the level of supremacy "over" the Church." -Please give one example of this.

"The Orthodox Christian Church is more united than the millions of Roman whose unity is merely symbolized by an earthly city called Rome."- This is total conjecture, and obviously biased. But I do love our debate brother.

"If we seem to be in such foul disagreement at times, know that it is because we care enough about truth to guard it at all costs."-Admirable. However, this is why the Catholic Church called councils all throughout the centuries, it was for that same care and zeal.

"And, quite frankly, the errors put forth by Rome are just as obvious to the Orthodox as the errors of the church of latter day saints are to just about everyone except for members of the LDS, and we perceive their harmfulness just the same."- Just so you know this would be the same view from the Catholic Church against things like Orthodoxy's error in denying the "filioque" or denying the "Chalcedonian definition",etc.

"Sometimes it's about doing the will of God with regard to oneself, even if it hurts."- This is my point. Here goes the will of God then: All found in our Lord's High Priestly prayer in John 17:11,21,22,23.

 

[Jamesone5]

"Peter was also the bishop of Antioch before he was the bishop of Rome. When he left Antioch he ordained his successor, Evodius (53-69ad). Did Peter hand down his keys to Evodius?"- This is a moot and irrelevant point.
No he didn't hand any keys at all to anyone because the keys were not physically able to handed off. They were never of a physical nature to begin with. You are quite obvious with your straw men that you are putting forward. Look into history, Popes have begun episcopal seats all over the world, it is obvious that his next successor would not sit in those episcopal seats that they had founded. Maybe you should read through these also:

Clement of Alexandria
“[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? ‘Behold, we have left all and have followed you’ [Matt. 19:27; Mark 10:28]” (Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 21:3–5 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian
“[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church” (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

The Letter of Clement to James
“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed” (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

Origen
“f we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things [Jesus] said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]. For it is no small difference that Peter received the keys not of one heaven but of more, and in order that whatsoever things he binds on earth may be bound not in one heaven but in them all, as compared with the many who bind on earth and loose on earth, so that these things are bound and loosed not in [all] the heavens, as in the case of Peter, but in one only; for they do not reach so high a stage with power as Peter to bind and loose in all the heavens” (Commentary on Matthew 13:31 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian of Carthage
“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
“The Lord is loving toward men, swift to pardon but slow to punish. Let no man despair of his own salvation. Peter, the first and foremost of the apostles, denied the Lord three times before a little servant girl, but he repented and wept bitterly” (Catechetical Lectures 2:19 [A.D. 350]).

“[Simon Magus] so deceived the city of Rome that Claudius erected a statue of him. . . . While the error was extending itself, Peter and Paul arrived, a noble pair and the rulers of the Church, and they set the error aright. . . . [T]hey launched the weapon of their like-mindedness in prayer against the Magus, and struck him down to earth. It was marvelous enough, and yet no marvel at all, for Peter was there—he that carries about the keys of heaven [Matt. 16:19]” (ibid., 6:14).

“In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9:32–34]” (ibid., 17:27).

Ephraim the Syrian
“[Jesus said:] Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on Earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples. Through you I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is that life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the firstborn in my institution so that, as the heir, you may be executor of my treasures. I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, I have given you authority over all my treasures” (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).

Pope Damasus I
“Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it” (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome
“‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division” (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]).

Pope Innocent I
“In seeking the things of God . . . you have acknowledged that judgment is to be referred to us [the pope], and have shown that you know that is owed to the Apostolic See [Rome], if all of us placed in this position are to desire to follow the apostle himself [Peter] from whom the episcopate itself and the total authority of this name have emerged” (Letters 29:1 [A.D. 408]).

Council of Ephesus
“Philip, presbyter and legate of [Pope Celestine I] said: ‘We offer our thanks to the holy and venerable synod, that when the writings of our holy and blessed pope had been read to you . . . you joined yourselves to the holy head also by your holy acclamations. For your blessedness is not ignorant that the head of the whole faith, the head of the apostles, is blessed Peter the apostle’” (Acts of the Council, session 2 [A.D. 431]).

“Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome] said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’” (ibid., session 3).

And finally, your last paragraph, this one:
"We believe that Jesus is the rock upon which the church is built, and because Peter received the information from God which was in heaven, and not from anyone on earth, Jesus was talking about revelation from Jesus from heaven as being the rock upon which the church would stand, certainly not any man."

Just so you know this is the way every single Protestant church must read this passage in order to circumvent it's true meaning. A meaning which obviously points to the one Apostle who received -by our Lord Himself - a symbol of his authority among the rest of the Apostles. An authority that he clearly showcases all throughout the Book of Acts, an authority that has been shown to the world throughout every century down to this very day in the Bishop of Rome. Unfortunately, this authority you choose to reject, because if you submitted to it you would have to leave your false belief system and admit that you have been wrong about so much. Having led many people into error as well.
I invite you to accept the true Gospel and all the beauty found in her. So that you can read it and not have to do mental gymnastics to try and square it with the obvious errors found in mormonism. God is not the Author of such confusion that you find in mormonism and you know it in your heart.

Thank you for the education on this matter in your last two posts.

 

[Jamesone5]

"Peter was also the bishop of Antioch before he was the bishop of Rome. When he left Antioch he ordained his successor, Evodius (53-69ad). Did Peter hand down his keys to Evodius?"- This is a moot and irrelevant point.
No he didn't hand any keys at all to anyone because the keys were not physically able to handed off. They were never of a physical nature to begin with. You are quite obvious with your straw men that you are putting forward. Look into history, Popes have begun episcopal seats all over the world, it is obvious that his next successor would not sit in those episcopal seats that they had founded. Maybe you should read through these also:

Clement of Alexandria
“[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? ‘Behold, we have left all and have followed you’ [Matt. 19:27; Mark 10:28]” (Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 21:3–5 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian
“[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church” (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

The Letter of Clement to James
“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed” (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

Origen
“f we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things [Jesus] said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]. For it is no small difference that Peter received the keys not of one heaven but of more, and in order that whatsoever things he binds on earth may be bound not in one heaven but in them all, as compared with the many who bind on earth and loose on earth, so that these things are bound and loosed not in [all] the heavens, as in the case of Peter, but in one only; for they do not reach so high a stage with power as Peter to bind and loose in all the heavens” (Commentary on Matthew 13:31 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian of Carthage
“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
“The Lord is loving toward men, swift to pardon but slow to punish. Let no man despair of his own salvation. Peter, the first and foremost of the apostles, denied the Lord three times before a little servant girl, but he repented and wept bitterly” (Catechetical Lectures 2:19 [A.D. 350]).

“[Simon Magus] so deceived the city of Rome that Claudius erected a statue of him. . . . While the error was extending itself, Peter and Paul arrived, a noble pair and the rulers of the Church, and they set the error aright. . . . [T]hey launched the weapon of their like-mindedness in prayer against the Magus, and struck him down to earth. It was marvelous enough, and yet no marvel at all, for Peter was there—he that carries about the keys of heaven [Matt. 16:19]” (ibid., 6:14).

“In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9:32–34]” (ibid., 17:27).

Ephraim the Syrian
“[Jesus said:] Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on Earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples. Through you I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is that life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the firstborn in my institution so that, as the heir, you may be executor of my treasures. I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, I have given you authority over all my treasures” (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).

Pope Damasus I
“Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it” (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome
“‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division” (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]).

Pope Innocent I
“In seeking the things of God . . . you have acknowledged that judgment is to be referred to us [the pope], and have shown that you know that is owed to the Apostolic See [Rome], if all of us placed in this position are to desire to follow the apostle himself [Peter] from whom the episcopate itself and the total authority of this name have emerged” (Letters 29:1 [A.D. 408]).

Council of Ephesus
“Philip, presbyter and legate of [Pope Celestine I] said: ‘We offer our thanks to the holy and venerable synod, that when the writings of our holy and blessed pope had been read to you . . . you joined yourselves to the holy head also by your holy acclamations. For your blessedness is not ignorant that the head of the whole faith, the head of the apostles, is blessed Peter the apostle’” (Acts of the Council, session 2 [A.D. 431]).

“Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome] said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’” (ibid., session 3).

And finally, your last paragraph, this one:
"We believe that Jesus is the rock upon which the church is built, and because Peter received the information from God which was in heaven, and not from anyone on earth, Jesus was talking about revelation from Jesus from heaven as being the rock upon which the church would stand, certainly not any man."

Just so you know this is the way every single Protestant church must read this passage in order to circumvent it's true meaning. A meaning which obviously points to the one Apostle who received -by our Lord Himself - a symbol of his authority among the rest of the Apostles. An authority that he clearly showcases all throughout the Book of Acts, an authority that has been shown to the world throughout every century down to this very day in the Bishop of Rome. Unfortunately, this authority you choose to reject, because if you submitted to it you would have to leave your false belief system and admit that you have been wrong about so much. Having led many people into error as well.
I invite you to accept the true Gospel and all the beauty found in her. So that you can read it and not have to do mental gymnastics to try and square it with the obvious errors found in mormonism. God is not the Author of such confusion that you find in mormonism and you know it in your heart.

Here's the thing in the long run. You have to Trust God who will send His Holy Spirit to you that that Spirit will correct errors. Spirit of truth will guide you into all truth otherwise Christ made a promise He couldn't keep

John 16:13
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

I've seen even many protestants somewhat denying the Holy Spirit and of course then get into error. Satan has at hand many deceptions and as long as we try to remain purely humble to the Lord, He , through His Spirit will clear things up. I, in my Christian walk have had many notions that turned out be false that I had to "test". as in:

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Everyone [if they admit it] denies God's Power in one way or another, but in the question of truth there should be no compromise. Of course, applying that truth to our lives is where many of our fears come from.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

After reviewing the thread, it was decided to close this thread for off topic posts and Statement of Purpose violations. ​