What Evolution fails to mention.

[SkyWriting]

lol

So when you jump out the window of a skyscraper,
do you then require "faith" to believe that you'll
plummet to your death due to gravity?

SkyWriting said:
If your model or sequence is in any way alterable, then it
is a fluid fiction in your imagination.

--In 2007, window washer Alcides Moreno lived after falling 47 stories from the roof of a skyscraper in the city.

--...jumped off the 86th floor of the Empire State Building, and luckily she LIVED

--Man who survived 47-storey fall from skyscraper wakes

--Man who fell 40 stories miraculously saved by parked car in New York

 

[SkyWriting]

Nonsense.

The products of past events can be observed, in detail. Some examples: lava flows "showing" us a volcanic eruption; cryptic layering in intrusions revealing slow cooling following a binary eutectic; rounded quartz grains in a sandstone telling of prolonged grain erosion; a full list would require many books to detail.

Past events can be predicted. When examining a cyclothem we can predict which rock type will follow which and what its character will be.

We can duplicate cryptic layering in the lab; we can quantify grain rounding in the lab; we model meander migration in computers. The past can be tested experimentally.

Claims to the contrary are ignorant.

Any story you can tell can be re-molded by another expert.
This proves that your explanation is an imagined fiction.
There is nothing concrete about your historical event story.
It is so fluid that you might learn something about physical
properties tomorrow, and then retell your imagined story
completely differently to get the same result!

 

[SkyWriting]

Still no answers, I see.

There are 2 yes/no questions. It's pretty simple.

Also, I said that the tire tracks are all you have to go on. I need to use a picture on this forum because it is the only way I can communicate visuals on this channel.

Imagine yourself standing in that place, looking at the tire tracks.

Is it a "statement of faith", to conclude that a vehicle drove there and made those tracks?
Yes or no.

Also note that I'm not asking about absolute certainty either.

There is just one really simple question: upon observing the tire tracks, is it then a "statement of faith" to conclude that a vehicle drove there, making those tracks?


It's hilarious to see you dance around this, trying extremely hard to not having to admit that you made a nonsense statement that is so easily debunked...................

So I've debunked each one of your examples by showing that
there is more than one explanation for any result you wish to
provide. If there is more than one explanation for any past event
then your version of events is a fluid and fictional account.

The Sherlock Effect:
How Forensic Doctors and Investigators
Disastrously Reason Like the Great Fictional Detective

 

[Ophiolite]

Yes, but can you PROVE that those things you see were actually produced by volcano's and NOT by extra-dimensional dragons farting?!?!?!

NO? THEN YOU HAVE FAITH!!!!


That seems to be his line of thinking.

And, of course, my response to that argument would be that I can't prove anything. But my position is much more than that. My agnosticism is not just a matter of my attitude to gods, it reflects my views on just about everything.

The only thing I am certain of is my uncertainty. I have no beliefs whatsoever, though there are some things that I strongly suspect are probably true, whatever true is. As a practical matter I accept certain things are a certain way - hence I don't attempt to fly from atop a cliff, or pay $4.50 for exclusive ownership of the Brooklyn Bridge.

In short, I have expectations about things and events and principles, etc, but I do not have faith that they are true - I have experience and evidence that lead me to suspect that they are true and that, in some instances, it is practical to work on the basis that they are true.

What I have trouble getting my head around is that some people require certainty in their lives. All I can say to that is they made a really poor choice of which universe to be born into and a really poor choice of species. Bamboo doesn't suffer existensial angst.

 

[SkyWriting]

If you know so little about taxonomy, why assert that it must all be "fiction"?

If any part of the story can be re-written in any way, or if any explanation
can be changed to accommodate new information, and this new information
in any way alters the original story or proposal, then the entire story is
a fluid fiction in your imagination.

 

[SkyWriting]

You’re The one who claims not to believe in something you have no understanding of The Big Bang and evolution . You’ve got some of the misleading pseudoscience nonsense that creationists claim is evolution . But when people who actually study evolution tell you that , you decide , based on your ignorance, not to listen to them. That’s a fools game

What misleading pseudoscience have I endorsed?

 

[SkyWriting]

When I first bumped into the creationist ( lying)version of evolution, the first thing I did was look for evidence to support their claims . After all scientists do change details about science when they get better data . There was no blanket dismissal of creationist ideas until after I caught on to the lying and Orwellian newspeak that they indulge in. But I also have a biology background.

For the Big Bang I’m admittedly taking the word of my physics and astronomy colleagues ( and the fact that they can actually see the universe less than a few million years after it formed) But I do agree based on a basic understand of geology that the earth is very old .

Scripture says the earth is ancient and even goes so far as to say it is "everlasting". Genesis 49:26 Habakkuk 3:6
What are you on about what I've said?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Yes. The army does create fake tracks and this looks like an army truck.

lol

 

[DogmaHunter]

--In 2007, window washer Alcides Moreno lived after falling 47 stories from the roof of a skyscraper in the city.

--...jumped off the 86th floor of the Empire State Building, and luckily she LIVED

--Man who survived 47-storey fall from skyscraper wakes

--Man who fell 40 stories miraculously saved by parked car in New York

So, would you jump from the window thinking you'll live?

 

[Ophiolite]

If any part of the story can be re-written in any way, or if any explanation
can be changed to accommodate new information, and this new information
in any way alters the original story or proposal, then the entire story is
a fluid fiction in your imagination.

I bow to your expertise in the matters of fluid fiction and imagination. If they gave awards for congitive dissonance you would have my vote.

 

[mark kennedy]

If any part of the story can be re-written in any way, or if any explanation
can be changed to accommodate new information, and this new information
in any way alters the original story or proposal, then the entire story is
a fluid fiction in your imagination.

I drove a cab breifly, I got two paramedics going from the hospital to the fire station. They looked pretty somber so I asked if something had happened. He says we responded to a call where a woman fell to 5 stories and only sustained only cuts and bruises. I said isn't that impossible? He said it sure is. Inexplicable things happen, God sometimes gets involved so it's hard to say if somethings a dumb luck of divine providence. I remember a mental patient once made her way to the Natinal bank tower in Indianapolis, got out the window and actually survived the fall for a couple of days. Fortunately for her she never regained consciousness because she was a terrible mess.

We had this girl in church who recieved a dreadful diagnosis concerning her unborn child, they recommended abortion. She decided against it and of course we all were praying for her. Her regular Doctor couldn't be there for the delivery, the replacement doctor was expecting this to be awful. When the baby was born she had web goes and a clft pallet. The nurse who was telling us about said the doctor did a little dance saying, she's perfet, she's perfect!

Miracle? I don't know, if I saw dear Lord and he says here I am that's a miracle to me. Responding in faith to the Gospel and receiving the Holy Spirit of promise is a miacle, literally the most important miracle in the life of the believer.

 

[pitabread]

If any part of the story can be re-written in any way, or if any explanation
can be changed to accommodate new information, and this new information
in any way alters the original story or proposal, then the entire story is
a fluid fiction in your imagination.

I have noticed a common theme among fundamentalist believers that there is an issue with uncertainty (I call it "uncertainty intolerance"). And specifically it manifests as this idea that if something cannot be taken as 100% absolutely true, then it gets treated as 100% fiction.

For whatever reason, working with incomplete information seems to be a challenge for some people.

 

[Brightmoon]

I alway thought of evolution this way- a jigsaw puzzle that you’ve got most of the border put together. You’ve got most of the vase with flowers and the elephant put together but you’re not sure where the elephant fits inside the border yet . The sky, the lake and the castle all have pieces missing but they definitely belong in this puzzle somewhere because they’re attached to the border in spots. You can tell what the end picture is going to look like but there are pieces missing. That’s an analogy about the current state of evolution

 

[tas8831]

When you build a house of cards on a same state past, you just may be questioned about if you actually know what nature it really was or not. At that point they will find out you don't. Ha.

When you have to engage in arguments premised on evidence-free fantasies to prop up your failed ancient myths, you do not deserve to be taken seriously.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Nonsense.

The products of past events can be observed, in detail. Some examples: lava flows "showing" us a volcanic eruption; cryptic layering in intrusions revealing slow cooling following a binary eutectic; rounded quartz grains in a sandstone telling of prolonged grain erosion; a full list would require many books to detail.

Past events can be predicted. When examining a cyclothem we can predict which rock type will follow which and what its character will be.

We can duplicate cryptic layering in the lab; we can quantify grain rounding in the lab; we model meander migration in computers. The past can be tested experimentally.

Claims to the contrary are ignorant.

I agree. The claims in the abstract concern forensic science, which is particularly problematic, and Dr. Young does rather overdo it; for example, he talks of "observing at autopsy a contact gunshot wound in the head of a decedent", then going on to describe how difficult it would be to identify the weapon or shooter. By suggesting it's possible to identify a contact gunshot wound, he's either fallen into the trap he's pointing out (that you can't go from findings to events - i.e. from a hole in the head and gunpowder burns, to a contact gunshot event), or he doesn't mean what he wrote to be as general and as absolute as it reads.

Either way, the general and absolute wording of the claims in the abstract is clearly mistaken.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

There is just one really simple question: upon observing the tire tracks, is it then a "statement of faith" to conclude that a vehicle drove there, making those tracks?

It's certainly not blind faith, as was claimed, because that is faith without evidence - e.g. believing a wheeled vehicle had driven across virgin snow where no tracks can be seen.

 

[Ophiolite]

I agree. The claims in the abstract concern forensic science, which is particularly problematic, and Dr. Young does rather overdo it; for example, he talks of "observing at autopsy a contact gunshot wound in the head of a decedent", then going on to describe how difficult it would be to identify the weapon or shooter. By suggesting it's possible to identify a contact gunshot wound, he's either fallen into the trap he's pointing out (that you can't go from findings to events - i.e. from a hole in the head and gunpowder burns, to a contact gunshot event), or he doesn't mean what he wrote to be as general and as absolute as it reads.

Either way, the general and absolute wording of the claims in the abstract is clearly mistaken.

I didn't even read the link. Three possibilities occurred to me:
1. The statement was taken out of context, in much the same way that creationists will quote that portion of On the Origin of Species where Darwin expresses doubt that the eye could evolve, omitting the part where he explains how it might come about.
2. The man is a maverick who likes to stir things up. That would be a neat one.
3. The man is incompetent, which is plausible, but not likely.

However, whatever the explanation, the statement as presented was false and that - in the context of this thread - was the only point important for me. And, in general, I would rather accept the findings from a forensic scientist than an eye witness. (Eyes see thing quite accurately, then the brain messes it up!)

 

[Brightmoon]

( snip)

We had this girl in church who recieved a dreadful diagnosis concerning her unborn child, they recommended abortion. She decided against it and of course we all were praying for her. Her regular Doctor couldn't be there for the delivery, the replacement doctor was expecting this to be awful. When the baby was born she had web goes and a clft pallet. The nurse who was telling us about said the doctor did a little dance saying, she's perfet, she's perfect!

Miracle? I don't know, if I saw dear Lord and he says here I am that's a miracle to me. Responding in faith to the Gospel and receiving the Holy Spirit of promise is a miacle, literally the most important miracle in the life of the believer.

. What’s was your point Mark ? That this child was born with repairable birth defects ? Or that a cleft palates, webbed digits or cleft lip are atavisms from fetal development gone slightly awry (due to an evolutionary history ) The fact that these are repairable is due to surgical techniques probably learned on other mammals . You can’t escape the fact of evolution/common descent even if you “don’t believe in it”. Medical schools are starting to require an understanding of evolution for a good reason

 

[Brightmoon]

as far as God being involved . That child doesn’t have to go thru life with a deformity because we have learned the skills necessary to fix it. I’m alive to this day because of antibiotics given to me as a baby . Evolution has already saved my life.

 

[mark kennedy]

. What’s was your point Mark ? That this child was born with repairable birth defects ? Or that a cleft palates, webbed digits or cleft lip are atavisms from fetal development gone slightly awry (due to an evolutionary history ) The fact that these are repairable is due to surgical techniques probably learned on other mammals . You can’t escape the fact of evolution/common descent even if you “don’t believe in it”. Medical schools are starting to require an understanding of evolution for a good reason

My point? God is involved and whether or not you believe in evolution that remains a standard among the people I identify with. You can think what you like, I know what I've experienced and the truth is the evidence could say one thing, or it can say another. Medical students need to know something about evolution, big deal, of course traits change over time.