• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

What Evolution fails to mention.

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Sorry, last week is not an issue. By the way, it is 2018, do you believe in the Man they set that to...many weeks ago?

Try to accept that refusing to blindly embrace your fantasies is not denying last week.

last week, last millenia,.... there's no difference.

It's denial of the past. It's Last Thursdayism (which is a concept, not an actual belief concerning last thursday)
 
Reactions: Bugeyedcreepy
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others


For me is was a brilliant girl I dated in High School. She was headed for engineering, and her father was a forensics engineer who studied plane crashes for the Federal Government. They'd get plane pieces at their lab and would determine the properties and stress the metal had experienced. She taught me that nothing is random. I asked about the motion of a Tilt-a-Whirl carnival ride and she explained that with enough information about the properties of the friction and mass, that an entire carnival ride could be predicted. So the news that "nothing is random" kept me from swallowing that story about "random evolution" very early in my life.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

All past events are based on blind Faith in something. And they are always fictional stories we create that satisfy our notions of how things work. They might be good stories, but they are created in our imagination.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Reptiles include birds, turtles, lizards, snakes and crocodiles. They're not a family, but an entire class. So, if you're looking for morphological similarity, you're out of luck.

Skin, heads, tails, lungs, brains, spines.......what system are you using? The "hard shell" classification system?
 
Upvote 0

Paul of Eugene OR

Finally Old Enough
Site Supporter
May 3, 2014
6,373
1,858
✟278,532.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married

Science is precisely about determining how God did it. Mixing science with religion is inescapable since both are paths to truth. Opening your theology to science is precisely opening to truths that have basis in fact, those facts that science can determine. Rejecting those truths is a sure sign of a deficient religion.
 
Upvote 0

pitabread

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2017
12,920
13,373
Frozen North
✟344,333.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
So the news that "nothing is random" kept me from swallowing that story about "random evolution" very early in my life.

It's less about "random" and more about chaotic systems. If you had absolutely every single piece of information about the starting state of a particular system, yes, you could predict with absolute certainty the outcome.

The problem though is that we never have absolutely every piece of information. Consequently in a chaotic system, it becomes very hard to predict over the long run. This is why weather forecasts are so difficult to get accurate the further ahead one tries to predict.
 
Upvote 0

Brightmoon

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.
Mar 2, 2018
6,297
5,539
NYC
✟166,950.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Skin, heads, tails, lungs, brains, spines.......what system are you using? The "hard shell" classification system?
. The clade Reptilomorpha which includes us or if you want to go further back in time to the Silurian , Clade Sarcopterygii . If you’re using the Linnaean system these all belong to chordates
 
Reactions: SkyWriting
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
. The clade Reptilomorpha which includes us or if you want to go further back in time to the Silurian , Clade Sarcopterygii. If you’re using the Linnaean system these are chordates
OK. But it's a made made classification system.
 
Upvote 0

Brightmoon

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.
Mar 2, 2018
6,297
5,539
NYC
✟166,950.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The classification systems are based on genetic biochemical and morphological characteristics of living or extinct organisms. natural selection isn’t random . Mutations sometimes are
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,144
✟349,292.00
Faith
Atheist
It may be true that nothing is random (although quantum events are thought to be random), but the 'random' used in the theory of evolution is, strictly, pseudo-random, meaning unpredictable. This can be due to the complexity of the situation (e.g. with billions of molecules & atoms bumping into each other, the path of any one is unpredictable - a Drunkard's Walk), or due to chaotic behaviour (sensitive dependency on initial conditions), e.g. the Butterfly Effect.

So the mutations involved in evolution occur at random for-all-intents-and-purposes. Natural selection isn't random as far as populations are concerned, although it may be stochastic (probabilistic) at the level of the individual.
 
Reactions: Brightmoon
Upvote 0

tas8831

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2017
5,611
3,999
56
Northeast
✟101,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Humans evolved out of Primates.
No more than humans evolved from marshmallows.
I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it:

The tested methodology:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.


Application of the tested methodology:


Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "




Catarrhine phylogeny: noncoding DNA evidence for a diphyletic origin of the mangabeys and for a human-chimpanzee clade.

"The Superfamily Hominoidea for apes and humans is reduced to family Hominidae within Superfamily Cercopithecoidea, with all living hominids placed in subfamily Homininae; and (4) chimpanzees and humans are members of a single genus, Homo, with common and bonobo chimpanzees placed in subgenus H. (Pan) and humans placed in subgenus H. (Homo). It may be noted that humans and chimpanzees are more than 98.3% identical in their typical nuclear noncoding DNA and probably more than 99.5% identical in the active coding nucleotide sequences of their functional nuclear genes (Goodman et al., 1989, 1990). In mammals such high genetic correspondence is commonly found between sibling species below the generic level but not between species in different genera."




The only replies I have ever gotten on this from creationists have been sad cop-outs asking if humans are related to mice, things like that. And now I am sure I will get the 100% evidence-free inanity that is "different states past."
 
Upvote 0

Brightmoon

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.
Mar 2, 2018
6,297
5,539
NYC
✟166,950.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The only problem tas is that you’d probably have to translate that from scientese into grade school English . I mean I know what a catarrhine is but does the average creationist? they do tend to be even less scientifically literate than the average laymen.
 
Reactions: tas8831
Upvote 0

tas8831

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2017
5,611
3,999
56
Northeast
✟101,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
And yet they often portray themselves as being not only scientifically literate, but to be more so than nearly anyone else.
 
Reactions: Brightmoon
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You cannot support your fantasy state and religion then. No news there.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Lol....

Nothing's being roasted, except your credibility (not that you had any to begin with).

Sounds like you still didn't google the word "eukaryote". I advice you do.
The claim is that they evolved (i.e magically appeared) billions of years ago.

Which part of..'I do not find your religion even mildly interesting' are you having trouble with??
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
last week, last millenia,.... there's no difference.

It's denial of the past. It's Last Thursdayism (which is a concept, not an actual belief concerning last thursday)
The past we know about, God told us about.. your imaginary darkly inspired fantasy godless past does not even measure up to last thursdayism. It is fables mixed with denial sprinkled with zealous religion and topped with ignorance.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
When you build a house of cards on a same state past, you just may be questioned about if you actually know what nature it really was or not. At that point they will find out you don't. Ha.
 
Upvote 0