What evidence is there that Democrats would've handled anything differently with Covid?

mark46

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When Dr. Fauci was telling Trump at the end of Feb that there was not reason people should change their behavior how was Trump to know, Trump is not a doctor and he has no way to look into the future, he has to depend on the advisors as experts.

Trump tells us that Fauci is one of many, many experts that advise him on COVID, and one that he doesn't listen to very often. Believe him.

With regard to Fauci saying one time in February that it was not time to have a country-wide change in behavior, that may or may not be the best advice. However, the key at THAT time was containment. We need to be able to test, isolate, treat, and track whenever cases were discovered. Nationwide stay at home was not at all necessary before the failure of the containment efforts. Action was indeed necessary in January; the information was certainly available to all by the end of January, and available to the president's aides a month before that.

Sure, we could have had a hard shutdowns when it was clear that there were hot spots, and eventually everywhere when it was clear than containment had failed. That was indeed clear at the end of February.
 
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Tanj

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...but it is important.

I disagree....or at least think it way way less important than the current situation.

If the democrats are claiming to be the party of "listening to the experts"

Every American that starts a sentence with "if the <insert party here> are claiming..." is a part of the problem. You are buying into the nonsensical diversionary and divisionary conversation which is, quite literally, killing your people.

TEST
TRACE
QUARANTINE

If that's not your main concern, then you have bought into the bipartisan con, spearheaded by a master conman.

Whilst there are some states, as I understand it, which have a half decent program running, there's many that don't. And given you have freedom of interstate travel in the USA having a non federally controlled system is like having a "peeing section" of a swimming pool.

ETA
Yesterday, my state of 5 million people conducted 21000 COIVD tests and found 2 cases, both already in mandatory quarantine because they recently arrived from overseas. Three regions of Australia not only haven't had any positive tests for over a week, they don't even have any active cases in hospital.

"Exceptional" America should be doing better.
 
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mark46

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Covid information wasn't something that was "top secret classified information" at that time...if we knew about it, governors and prominent members of congress knew about it.

If Nancy said, in late February, "come out to Chinatown, it's perfectly safe" and Cuomo said "we've dealt with viruses before, there's no reason to be afraid", that's clearly them being dismissive...did they not have access to the same news sources showing the issues it was causing in Italy & Spain?

What you want to believe is that Trump (and Pelosi and Cuomo) should act based on news reports. Yes, they might have investigated. The Trump administration had hundreds (even after all the cuts) who job it was to follow this virus and give advice, especially after Wuhan was closed down and the world was told that the virus was transferable from human to human, even by those who had no symptoms. This information was all available by mid-january. The debate, if there is one, might be when Trump should have declared an emergency an initiated major actions to build up supplies and test equipment, and recommend actions.
 
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mark46

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.I don't see how mass testing could've ever worked here, given the medical costs involved. If the Democrats had been in office and had managed to push through universal healthcare, maybe, but that seems like a pipe dream.

???
In the US, in many areas, tests are finally available as they should have been in March. There is no cost to the consumer. The insurance companies have been convinced to cover testing at no cost. In addition, many states have made such test generally available, with underused capacity (finally). Folks are encouraged to test, and then test again if necessary.
 
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mark46

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"Exceptional" America should be doing better.

I have many time congratulated the Asia countries on their success, including Australia. I do believe that the US federal government should have done much more, as it did in Ebola, SARS, MERS, M1N1 and the annual flu. IMO, it is NOT the ability to have each area of a country have its own policies that have led to success. We have needed leadership from Washington DC. Many states do not have the ability to plan and execute the needed actions, nor the ability of the federal government to mandate the production of needed supplies.

And yes, our travel bans are between the US and other countries. The idea of having bans between states seems a bit silly; surely the virus doesn't read road signs very well.
 
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mark46

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...but the fact remains that many dems did ignore it. Nancy and Cuomo were most certainly privy to the same information that the Trump administration was getting about it...it's not like it was top secret information. The effects in China, Italy, and Spain were widely publicized...even us, as regular citizens, knew the threat in late-Jan/early-Feb.
.

???
The amount of information and expertise available at the federal is far greater than what was available to Pelosi and Cuomo. It is Republican conspiracy to believe that there is the same or better information generally available. After all, the president can know more than all the experts just be watching FOX in the morning, instead of paying attention to briefings.
 
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Tanj

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And yes, our travel bans are between the US and other countries. The idea of having bans between states seems a bit silly; surely the virus doesn't read road signs very well.

Exactly, which is why banning people (that can read road signs) can be a good idea. However, that detracts from my main message, which is any kind of movement restriciton, be it international, interstate, or across the road, is a stop gap step to give you time to implement

TEST
TRACE
QUARANTINE.

In the absence of that, all travel restrictions (beyond Wuhan style) are delays of the inevitable.
 
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mark46

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Exactly, which is why banning people (that can read road signs) can be a good idea. However, that detracts from my main message, which is any kind of movement restriciton, be it international, interstate, or across the road, is a stop gap step to give you time to implement

TEST
TRACE
QUARANTINE.

In the absence of that, all travel restrictions (beyond Wuhan style) are delays of the inevitable.


I misunderstood. I agree with your position.

However, travel restrictions do buy time. The issue is how well that time is used. For the US, never has so much treasure (in this case time) been so wasted.
 
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wing2000

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When Dr. Fauci was telling Trump at the end of Feb that there was not reason people should change their behavior how was Trump to know, Trump is not a doctor and he has no way to look into the future, he has to depend on the advisors as experts.

Citation....
 
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Hank77

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I'm not convinced that we have the sort of public health infrastructure necessary to carry out a massive testing campaign
I'm not saying we could test everyone as South Korea did. I'm saying when someone got symptoms they were immediately tested, if they were positive then test the people they had come in contact with. If we had started doing that in Feb. we may have been able to keep in under control. We likely would have known sooner that there were asymptomatic carriers as well.
Who would have paid for it? Would there have been co-pays?
As far as I know, all the testing has been free to the people who have been tested.
Would the population at large just not have reported anything because they couldn't afford to miss work?
I think most people would know that if they got sick they were going to miss work anyway so why not get tested to find out if you just have a really rotten cold, the flu, or CoVid-19. Most people aren't going to want to spread a disease to their family and friends, especially if they are higher risk of permanent damage or death.
 
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camille70

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A lot would have been different if someone else, regardless of party, had been in charge.

According to Ronald Klain, who was Obama's Ebola Czar, in a twitter response to a Fox News Interview with Mitch McConnell:
We literally left them a 69-page Pandemic Playbook.... that they ignored
And an office called the Pandemic Preparedness Office... that they abolished.
And a global monitoring system called PREDICT .. that they cut by 75%

McConnell later stated he wasn't aware info had been left, but he corrected his statement days later that pandemic preparedness was left behind. Now according to Trump and his Press Secretary, (1 min vid at the link) they have been working off their own plan since August, something that is "much better," which means none of Obama's plan's left behind matter or should even be considered, because he is on record as stating they were scrapped.

That said, when things are declared an emergency or public health emergency or national emergency, certain processes can be activated. Obama didn't wait for the WHO to declare the swine fly a pandemic.
He declared it a public health emergency when only 20 cases were here, and six months later a national emergency.

He immediately asked for funding.

Now contrast this with the Trump administration.

According to the Whistle Blower, in January we had CIVILIANS trying to get our government to act. You mean to tell me a civilian could read the tea leaves better than our own intelligence agencies?

From WAPO:
Bowen’s medical supply company, Prestige Ameritech, could ramp up production to make an additional 1.7 million N95 masks a week. He viewed the shrinking domestic production of medical masks as a national security issue, though, and he wanted to give the federal government first dibs.

“We still have four like-new N95 manufacturing lines,” Bowen wrote that day in an email to top administrators in the Department of Health and Human Services. “Reactivating these machines would be very difficult and very expensive but could be achieved in a dire situation.”

But communications over several days with senior agency officials — including Robert Kadlec, the assistant secretary for preparedness and emergency response — left Bowen with the clear impression that there was little immediate interest in his offer.

“I don’t believe we as an government are anywhere near answering those questions for you yet,” Laura Wolf, director of the agency’s Division of Critical Infrastructure Protection, responded that same day.

Bowen persisted.

“We are the last major domestic mask company,” he wrote on Jan. 23. “My phones are ringing now, so I don’t ‘need’ government business. I’m just letting you know that I can help you preserve our infrastructure if things ever get really bad. I’m a patriot first, businessman second.”

In the end, the government did not take Bowen up on his offer. Even today, production lines that could be making more than 7 million masks a month sit dormant.



In February, Chris Murphy tried to get the WH to take funding for Covid-19. He Tweeted early February:
"Just left the Administration briefing on Coronavirus. Bottom line: they aren't taking this seriously enough. Notably, no request for ANY emergency funding, which is a big mistake. Local health systems need supplies, training, screening staff etc. And they need it now." Another administration would have listened.

When the Trump administration finally did ask for money, the democrats tried to tell them it wasn't enough. When he set up a task force, it was Mike Pence and other non-medical professionals. IMO, they are not in place to make decisions to preserve life, they are there to preserve the pockets of their donors and the stock market at whatever risk to life is necessary. Death Panels? That is so 2009. Now Grandma and Grandpa should WANT to sacrifice themselves to the machine.

Sorry, I digress.

Instead of encouraging people to take it seriously and take precautions, Trump was telling people it was going to go away and urging folks to go out. We've all seen the mashups of his nonsense, so I won't repost that. Even now he is dithering back and forth. He likes to flex his power every chance he gets, but we couldn't get him to act on his emergency powers and federalize the supply chain. There has been no explanation given, but I believe it is because he didn't want to make business owners whom he wants favor with mad at him. I believe they also wanted people to be able to profit off supplies.

As Chris Murphy also said, we have:
No federalization of the supply chain.
No national testing program.
No national closure and reopening standards.
No effort to lead the global response.
The problem isn’t that Trump’s COVID response has been flawed. The problem is he’s mounted NO NATIONAL RESPONSE AT ALL.

Trump told the governors that they had to do it on their own, that he wasn't a shipping clerk. Then when they tried to get their own supplies, they confiscated them over and over and over again. There is no organization or coordination.

The Trump administration said there were no masks or equipment left in our stock pile by the Obama administration, yet we had 17 tons of supplies to send to China February 7th. The official notice states they were donated supplies but who knows. (To be fair, there were some expired masks in the stockpile, that had expired before Obama's term ended.)

They are trying to control the guidance being given by CDC. Causing confusion and distrust.

So to recap, the processes in place to monitor, identify and fight pandemics before they reached our shores were either abolished or reduced. The Trump administration failed to heed warnings from civilians, intelligence briefings etc. They refused funding. Trump told Americans it was no big deal, that it was a simple flu that would pass and just one day disappear. He has not federalized the supply chain. (Why its not a national security issue that all our medical supplies are made outside our country is beyond me, but that didn't start with Trump.) He is exerting inappropriate influence upon CDC and other organizations that should not be politicized. Trump is undermining local states and encouraging Americans to defy the guidelines meant to keep us safe, encouraging social unrest for political gain and sometimes resulting in violence. Presidents used to encourage us to maintain peace, calm and goodwill toward one another. Those days are over, I guess. There is also info out there that he is going to transfer the handling of pandemics to the State Department. We'll see.

IMO, Trump would rather have the appearance of solving an issue to gain votes, over actually solving the issue to earn votes and well deserved praise. It's all showmanship but it's a waste of time because he can't wish the virus away and pretend it doesn't exist. This is not something that can be ignored. He can tell his supporters it is fake news and the media hyping things to hurt him, something that would have to have been coordinated with all the countries in the world, but sooner or later they or someone they know, will be touched by this pandemic and come to know the truth. (I wouldn't put a coordinated effort to target Trump past other governments, but I doubt seriously they would kill their own citizens and family to make it happen.)

Anyway, mark your calendars for 3 weeks from now. There was event, after event, after event (YouTube news report) this weekend where people were packed one on top of another with no masks. Two covid-19 positive hair stylists have exposed over 140 people to covid-19. Not to mention all the folks who went back to church and are having family gatherings for the holiday. We have almost 100k dead. I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that is going to be blown up over the next month.

Now is not the time to ease up on the precautions in place. Don't go out because you see everyone else out and having a good time. I hope everyone stays safe. Be blessed.
 
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camille70

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I'm not saying we could test everyone as South Korea did. I'm saying when someone got symptoms they were immediately tested, if they were positive then test the people they had come in contact with. If we had started doing that in Feb. we may have been able to keep in under control. We likely would have known sooner that there were asymptomatic carriers as well.

As far as I know, all the testing has been free to the people who have been tested.

I think most people would know that if they got sick they were going to miss work anyway so why not get tested to find out if you just have a really rotten cold, the flu, or CoVid-19. Most people aren't going to want to spread a disease to their family and friends, especially if they are higher risk of permanent damage or death.


You'd think. There has been more than one report of meat packers taking Tylenol to reduce fevers so they pass their temperature scans.

NYT reported about one in Iowa who didn't want to lose their bonus:

Pork Chops vs. People: Battling Coronavirus in an Iowa Meat Plant

If you can't read the above, rawstory did an article based on it:

Iowa Tyson meat plant worker took Tylenol to get temp down because she feared she’d lose her bonus with COVID-19
 
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rambot

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I'd say this thread is a fruitless exercise frankly. There is no catagorical way to know how democrats would have handled it.

That said, how often do we need to tell the dunderpates that Trump didn't cancel travel from china. He cancelled nonamerican travelers.....and funneled those still coming in into only 7 cities. He did NOT "stop travel from china".
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/04/07/trumps-claim-that-he-imposed-first-china-ban/
For a decent description of events and timelines
 
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Hank77

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If the information is widely available in late January, Nancy shouldn't be encouraging people to congregate in large groups in late-Feb...wouldn't you agree?
I would certainly think that she had more information at that time than you or I did. I know that she was in Chinatown because the Chinese people were getting harassed and targeted by some really stupid people. I know that she was telling people to not be afraid to shop and eat in Chinatown.
I wouldn't have handled it that way and I feel like she was politicking when she did it. But that's just my biased opinion.
 
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Silmarien

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In the US, in many areas, tests are finally available as they should have been in March. There is no cost to the consumer. The insurance companies have been convinced to cover testing at no cost. In addition, many states have made such test generally available, with underused capacity (finally). Folks are encouraged to test, and then test again if necessary.

Yes... but it's late May right now. It's not early March, and it's definitely not January or February. I don't see how we could have had some sort of universal, free testing system paid for by insurance companies before the situation had already deteriorated to the point where that was necessary.

I'm not saying we could test everyone as South Korea did. I'm saying when someone got symptoms they were immediately tested, if they were positive then test the people they had come in contact with. If we had started doing that in Feb. we may have been able to keep in under control. We likely would have known sooner that there were asymptomatic carriers as well.

I agree that this would have worked. I just don't think our healthcare system has enough of a focus on public health for it to have ever happened here the way it did in Germany, even if the Democrats had been in charge.

As far as I know, all the testing has been free to the people who have been tested.

At this point, I think it is. I remember things being confusing in the beginning, though I think that was mostly due to hospital charges. But all our testing has been an after-the-fact attempt to catch up, not preventive, so I think "who's going to pay?" would have kept any sort of massive testing strategy to take off back in January or February.

I think most people would know that if they got sick they were going to miss work anyway so why not get tested to find out if you just have a really rotten cold, the flu, or CoVid-19. Most people aren't going to want to spread a disease to their family and friends, especially if they are higher risk of permanent damage or death.

Eh... to be honest, given the antibody results, there's a halfway decent chance that I went to work with Covid-19, since we knew so little about the symptoms back in March. It was a really rotten cold, but once the weird fever broke, I went back since I don't stay home for colds. Knowing what I know now about the state of NYC, I probably shouldn't have done that, but the information back then was really bad.

That's my problem with all this "should've, could've" stuff. Things were too confusing and then fell apart too quickly. Would we have been able to put together the sort of bill necessary to get people paid leave if they had to get tested before we had a catastrophe on our hands? I really don't think so. I don't think even Germany began its massive testing before the beginning of March.
 
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Hank77

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You'd think. There has been more than one report of meat packers taking Tylenol to reduce fevers so they pass their temperature scans.

NYT reported about one in Iowa who didn't want to lose their bonus:

Pork Chops vs. People: Battling Coronavirus in an Iowa Meat Plant

If you can't read the above, rawstory did an article based on it:

Iowa Tyson meat plant worker took Tylenol to get temp down because she feared she’d lose her bonus with COVID-19
Thanks for the article. All CoVid-19 articles in the NYT are free for everyone to read, they are not behind a paywall.
 
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Hank77

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Bowen’s medical supply company, Prestige Ameritech, could ramp up production to make an additional 1.7 million N95 masks a week. He viewed the shrinking domestic production of medical masks as a national security issue, though, and he wanted to give the federal government first dibs.
Bowen testified before one of the Congressional committees a couple of weeks ago. I watched it on YouTube. At one point he was so upset that I thought he was going to breakdown. I'd like to know why we didn't take him up on his offer.
Those masks are still needed now. We also need to restock the storage areas around the country for the next time we get hit with another outbreak in the future. They seem to be coming every few years.
 
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Hank77

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I don't think even Germany began its massive testing before the beginning of March.
In mid-January, long before most Germans had given the virus much thought, Charité hospital in Berlin had already developed a test and posted the formula online.
By the time Germany recorded its first case of Covid-19 in February, laboratories across the country had built up a stock of test kits.

A German Exception? Why the Country’s Coronavirus Death Rate Is Low

I think this article is just what you have been talking about as far as their healthcare system.
All the CoVid-19 articles in the NYT are not behind a paywall.
 
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camille70

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In mid-January, long before most Germans had given the virus much thought, Charité hospital in Berlin had already developed a test and posted the formula online.
By the time Germany recorded its first case of Covid-19 in February, laboratories across the country had built up a stock of test kits.

A German Exception? Why the Country’s Coronavirus Death Rate Is Low

I think this article is just what you have been talking about as far as their healthcare system.
All the CoVid-19 articles in the NYT are not behind a paywall.

Greece got ahead of the pandemic also.

Greece isn't finished providing historic lessons to a world in crisis
 
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