There is no evidence that it could have happened via natural causes...
Just because we don't understand it, and probably never will, does not mean that it must be supernatural. It can simply be a case that we don't understand it. Atheism will never have all the answers and never pretends to. Religion does claim to have all the answers. That is the difference, Christians have a supernatural answer, Atheists have no answer. There doesn't need to be an answer, therefore there doesn't need to be a supernatural explanation.
I believe the point I was trying to make was that just because it can't be explained, or proven via "evidence", does not mean there must be a supernatural explanation.
There is no evidence that it could have happened via natural causes, because we have yet to understand how it works, and therefore cannot replicate it. That does not mean it isn't the most rational, plausible, explanation. Claiming supernaturalism due to lack of evidence is looking at the problem from the wrong direction. We should be claiming naturalism unless there is sufficient evidence, as we know naturalism is real. There is lots of evidence that naturalism exists, but none that supernaturalism exists.
a. But, we DO understand what constitutes an intelligent Cause now dont we ? In fact, Science is in the business of determining whether something was intelligently created or naturally created ; the problem is : Scientists as well as Common Folks come to the table with their Minds already made up that intelligent causes are automatically ruled out. So...its not a matter of 'we dont understand it' -- rather, we DO understand from repeated personal experiences that when we see something extremely complex and especially when informational messages are associated with it, that it only comes from an intelligent source. The creation around us is replete with examples of just this.
b. It would be good then , if atheism doesnt have all the answers, that Atheists refrain from pretending unproven theories, wild speculations, and such...are the way it occured .
c. Religion doesnt have all the answers...but the Bible does have nearly all the answers , at least as much as we NEED to know, and it so happens it lines up perfectly with what modern Science has discovered. Did you know that nearly 100 scientific processes and facts were written down in the Bible 3-5,000 years ago to which modern science finally got around to confirming as true ? To quote the Leader of the Human Genome Project :' Science does not disprove the Bible and in fact both are harmonious' . Its psuedo science thats at odds with the Bible .
d. There most certainly DOES need to be an answer for the major issues , and in fact, that is the very purpose of Science : To understand the world and universe better because our very existence begs the question of our origin , the finite universes origin, and how things came to be the way they specifically are. It is a shallow Person who doesnt wish to know and a person concerned with the implications if a personal theistic Creator exists.
e. What is so bad about an intelligent Cause for our Universe, our Planet, our existence if thats where the evidences are leading ? Shouldnt we be going WHEREEVER the evidence leads without allowing our apriori-philosophical desires stand in the way ? Thats what honest people of integrity do , but alas, theres another component to mankind that often stands in the way of such truth seeking , truth discovery, and truth embracing : Personal pride .
a. We are far more complex than we can possibly create, therefore it must exist via something bigger than us.Whether that is intelligence design, or natural coincidence. This does not mean that because we make things, everything else must be made by someone, because our creations are not equal to ourselves, therefore not a valid comparison.
b. I agree.
c. Many things in the Bible and Church have been disproven by science aswell, as I'm sure you'll agree with. The earth certainly isn't flat or the center of the universe, for example. Can you name some things in the Bible that have been proven by science? I wasn't aware of any. The Bible contains knowledge that existed at the time it was written, not now.
d. There really doesn't need to be an answer, and I fear we're not intelligent to ever understand said answer. The universe is more complex than we can imagine, and it's arrogant to presume us intelligent enough to understand it. Whether by God or natural causes.
e. Nothing is bad about an intelligent cause to the Universe, in fact it would be quite nice. But as there is no evidence whatsoever to God's existence, and lots of evidence that nature could be a cause (stars, supernovas, heavy metals, expanding universe, etc). It's not personal pride that leads me to this conclusion, I was a Christian for 16 years and fully believed in God. I realise now that everything I knew about God could be (too) easily explained by other means.
I'm not going to stay in this discussion anymore, as we're just going round in circles, and will continue to. But let me leave you with one last thought.
Get a coin. Toss the coin, if it lands on heads write a H on a piece of paper, if it's tails, write a T. Continue this 63 more times. You will end up with a sequence of Hs and Ts. The odds of you getting that exact sequence is 1 in 18,446,744,073,709,551,615. And yet there it is. The thing with statistics is, they only matter with a specified goal. An unspecified goal means there is 100% chance of getting any sequence.
I believe we are a long, long sequence of chance. We are not a specified goal, therefore statistics do not matter. We may have turned out completely differently, and in all likelihood not at all. But here we are, we are a sequence that resulted in us being here. The probability that that happened is 100%.
The Boeing 747 theory proves a lack of understanding of statistics, as that presumes that we are a specified goal, which I don't believe we are.
Well, before you leave the Discussion, could i please ask you to come clean as to why you dont want a personal theistic Creator to exist for the highly personal effects in creation that are readily seen by all Humans ? Ive only had one other alleged 'Atheist' come right out and say 'No One is going to tell me how to live MY life -- not even God' .
I'm not really sure what you mean. Are you implying that it should be obvious that God exists, and I don't want to believe in him for selfish reasons?
If so, you couldn't be further from the truth. I actively seek to be proven wrong, a concept that is likely to be unfamiliar to you, hence why I am on these forums, but I have yet to see a single argument I agree with.
I find it extremely ignorant for you to take that viewpoint, and judge me and my world view without knowing anything about it.
I'm not really sure what you mean. Are you implying that it should be obvious that God exists, and I don't want to believe in him for selfish reasons?
If so, you couldn't be further from the truth. I actively seek to be proven wrong, a concept that is likely to be unfamiliar to you, hence why I am on these forums, but I have yet to see a single argument I agree with.
I find it extremely ignorant for you to take that viewpoint, and judge me and my world view without knowing anything about it.
I have yet to encounter a Christian who has sufficient evidence to believe that God exists. So I am curious what evidence the Christians in here have to justify their belief that the Christian God exists.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?