What evidence do you have that God exists?

[ThunderTongue]

Because I've met him face to face numerous times. As far as physical intellectual evidence, I have none, only my testimony of experiences.


But when he floods the room you are in with his presence, you too, will fall on your face weeping, realizing you knew him all along, and you are back home where you have longed to be.


I used to be an atheist as well

 

[Joshua260]

There is no evidence that it could have happened via natural causes...

Yes, I know what you were saying, but you avoided his question. The point, if I may be bold as to speak for him, is that atheists believe in things for which they have no evidence (but can't bring themselves to admit it!), so long as it supports their preconceived ideas. They are not as "unbiased" as they would have many to believe.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

Just because we don't understand it, and probably never will, does not mean that it must be supernatural. It can simply be a case that we don't understand it. Atheism will never have all the answers and never pretends to. Religion does claim to have all the answers. That is the difference, Christians have a supernatural answer, Atheists have no answer. There doesn't need to be an answer, therefore there doesn't need to be a supernatural explanation.

a. But, we DO understand what constitutes an intelligent Cause now dont we ? In fact, Science is in the business of determining whether something was intelligently created or naturally created ; the problem is : Scientists as well as Common Folks come to the table with their Minds already made up that intelligent causes are automatically ruled out. So...its not a matter of 'we dont understand it' -- rather, we DO understand from repeated personal experiences that when we see something extremely complex and especially when informational messages are associated with it, that it only comes from an intelligent source. The creation around us is replete with examples of just this.

b. It would be good then , if atheism doesnt have all the answers, that Atheists refrain from pretending unproven theories, wild speculations, and such...are the way it occured .

c. Religion doesnt have all the answers...but the Bible does have nearly all the answers , at least as much as we NEED to know, and it so happens it lines up perfectly with what modern Science has discovered. Did you know that nearly 100 scientific processes and facts were written down in the Bible 3-5,000 years ago to which modern science finally got around to confirming as true ? To quote the Leader of the Human Genome Project :' Science does not disprove the Bible and in fact both are harmonious' . Its psuedo science thats at odds with the Bible .

d. There most certainly DOES need to be an answer for the major issues , and in fact, that is the very purpose of Science : To understand the world and universe better because our very existence begs the question of our origin , the finite universes origin, and how things came to be the way they specifically are. It is a shallow Person who doesnt wish to know and a person concerned with the implications if a personal theistic Creator exists.

e. What is so bad about an intelligent Cause for our Universe, our Planet, our existence if thats where the evidences are leading ? Shouldnt we be going WHEREEVER the evidence leads without allowing our apriori-philosophical desires stand in the way ? Thats what honest people of integrity do , but alas, theres another component to mankind that often stands in the way of such truth seeking , truth discovery, and truth embracing : Personal pride .

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

I believe the point I was trying to make was that just because it can't be explained, or proven via "evidence", does not mean there must be a supernatural explanation.

There is no evidence that it could have happened via natural causes, because we have yet to understand how it works, and therefore cannot replicate it. That does not mean it isn't the most rational, plausible, explanation. Claiming supernaturalism due to lack of evidence is looking at the problem from the wrong direction. We should be claiming naturalism unless there is sufficient evidence, as we know naturalism is real. There is lots of evidence that naturalism exists, but none that supernaturalism exists.

Since Naturalism exists and since you declare that 'no evidence of supernaturalism' by way of intelligent First Causes exists... then you wont mind picking one of the following topics (Biology, Cosmology, or Animal Kingdom) so I may ask you to explain how Naturalism was responsible for the example i give (?) . Are you up for the challenge since you apprear certain in your assertions ?

 

[Stormwave]

a. But, we DO understand what constitutes an intelligent Cause now dont we ? In fact, Science is in the business of determining whether something was intelligently created or naturally created ; the problem is : Scientists as well as Common Folks come to the table with their Minds already made up that intelligent causes are automatically ruled out. So...its not a matter of 'we dont understand it' -- rather, we DO understand from repeated personal experiences that when we see something extremely complex and especially when informational messages are associated with it, that it only comes from an intelligent source. The creation around us is replete with examples of just this.

b. It would be good then , if atheism doesnt have all the answers, that Atheists refrain from pretending unproven theories, wild speculations, and such...are the way it occured .

c. Religion doesnt have all the answers...but the Bible does have nearly all the answers , at least as much as we NEED to know, and it so happens it lines up perfectly with what modern Science has discovered. Did you know that nearly 100 scientific processes and facts were written down in the Bible 3-5,000 years ago to which modern science finally got around to confirming as true ? To quote the Leader of the Human Genome Project :' Science does not disprove the Bible and in fact both are harmonious' . Its psuedo science thats at odds with the Bible .

d. There most certainly DOES need to be an answer for the major issues , and in fact, that is the very purpose of Science : To understand the world and universe better because our very existence begs the question of our origin , the finite universes origin, and how things came to be the way they specifically are. It is a shallow Person who doesnt wish to know and a person concerned with the implications if a personal theistic Creator exists.

e. What is so bad about an intelligent Cause for our Universe, our Planet, our existence if thats where the evidences are leading ? Shouldnt we be going WHEREEVER the evidence leads without allowing our apriori-philosophical desires stand in the way ? Thats what honest people of integrity do , but alas, theres another component to mankind that often stands in the way of such truth seeking , truth discovery, and truth embracing : Personal pride .

a. We are far more complex than we can possibly create, therefore it must exist via something bigger than us.Whether that is intelligence design, or natural coincidence. This does not mean that because we make things, everything else must be made by someone, because our creations are not equal to ourselves, therefore not a valid comparison.

b. I agree.

c. Many things in the Bible and Church have been disproven by science aswell, as I'm sure you'll agree with. The earth certainly isn't flat or the center of the universe, for example. Can you name some things in the Bible that have been proven by science? I wasn't aware of any. The Bible contains knowledge that existed at the time it was written, not now.

d. There really doesn't need to be an answer, and I fear we're not intelligent to ever understand said answer. The universe is more complex than we can imagine, and it's arrogant to presume us intelligent enough to understand it. Whether by God or natural causes.

e. Nothing is bad about an intelligent cause to the Universe, in fact it would be quite nice. But as there is no evidence whatsoever to God's existence, and lots of evidence that nature could be a cause (stars, supernovas, heavy metals, expanding universe, etc). It's not personal pride that leads me to this conclusion, I was a Christian for 16 years and fully believed in God. I realise now that everything I knew about God could be (too) easily explained by other means.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

a. We are far more complex than we can possibly create, therefore it must exist via something bigger than us.Whether that is intelligence design, or natural coincidence. This does not mean that because we make things, everything else must be made by someone, because our creations are not equal to ourselves, therefore not a valid comparison.

b. I agree.

c. Many things in the Bible and Church have been disproven by science aswell, as I'm sure you'll agree with. The earth certainly isn't flat or the center of the universe, for example. Can you name some things in the Bible that have been proven by science? I wasn't aware of any. The Bible contains knowledge that existed at the time it was written, not now.

d. There really doesn't need to be an answer, and I fear we're not intelligent to ever understand said answer. The universe is more complex than we can imagine, and it's arrogant to presume us intelligent enough to understand it. Whether by God or natural causes.

e. Nothing is bad about an intelligent cause to the Universe, in fact it would be quite nice. But as there is no evidence whatsoever to God's existence, and lots of evidence that nature could be a cause (stars, supernovas, heavy metals, expanding universe, etc). It's not personal pride that leads me to this conclusion, I was a Christian for 16 years and fully believed in God. I realise now that everything I knew about God could be (too) easily explained by other means.

a. How is non intelligent Natural Occurences higher than the highly extreme examples of complexity that we see all around us ? How come you dont see the need for an Intelligent Source for the obvious intelligent complex design we all can (and have) determined? Science and reality has consistently shown that, whenever there is a personal effect that there was a Personal Source behind it. And whenever there is informational messages (as in DNA) , that messages always without fail comes from an Intelligent first Cause. Can you cite any example that would disprove this ? Further, such things as non-material Personality traits such as logic, reason, rationale, and abstract thinking never originate from materials but only from another like source ; can u cite an example to the contrary ?

c. No, the Bible has never been proven wrong by ANY field of Science. Please cite an example of the Bible being wrong whether it be scientific or historically .

d. The universe is extremely very complex with many many things interconnected for us to be here, for example ; can you cite ANY example on earth where just the presence of raw materials, chemicals, time, and chance have made something very complex (more than these items themselves) which functions as a complete unit .... without a shed of intelligent input ?

e. We ARE intelligent to understand certain fundamental things of reality , such as, whenever we see something complex that functions to provide a very narrow particular purpose...that it doesnt just happen willy nilly . Even when we are at the tender age of 4-6 years old, nearly every child runs to ask their Parents WHERE did all this come from / HOW did it all get here / WHO is responsible for it ? We know intrinsically that there is a Creator for a Creation .. and anyone who tries to make excuses otherwise is without excuse just as the Bible says. Its not that people cant believe in a personal theistic Creator (viz. God), its that they dont want to. And there are inner ulterior motives for this . It would be like Me denying that there is a train coming down the tracks because my Car is stalled on the tracks , so i dont wish a Train to exist. Thats how it is when people jettison God...its because God is an affront to their MO in life plus they dont want to be owned by anyone who IS more important than Self.

f. Would it still be nice if you were morally accountable to this personal Creator , that he owns you as well as the entire Universe , and that he has a very specific plan for your life which culminates in you getting to heaven where you can be with him .... yet you keep refusing his plan for you ?

g. A genuine Christian is One who recieves the finished calvary sacrifice of Christ unto his sins followed by a lifelong commitment of turning from all known lifestyle sins and serving God and Others with zeal thru a truly changed Inner Person due to the work God has and is doing in that persons Soul . If this is willfully cut short by the Individual, then the sincerity of recieving Christ was not genuine in the first place. Therefore, im afraid you were never a genuine Christian based on the standard outlined in the Bible . You may have thought you were in your Mind, but, we cant trust our feelings . That said, you can always make it genuine this time around if you so desire.

I regret you chose to side with the Worlds philosophies, standards, lifestyles and to forsake the inherintance that God wanted you to have starting with being a new changed Creation set apart for him. HIs offer still stands though.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

Here are some of my thoughts regarding my past commitment to atheism of roughly 10 adult years :

What i found appealing about atheism , at the time :

1. Nearly all my friends were atheists so i had much commaraderie .
2. If there were no binding absolute moral laws to live by, then it
offered great freedom of lifestyle choices (which i capitalized on) .
3. No one was in ultimate authority over me.
4. I wasnt owned by anyone higher than self which led to great
autonomy.
5. I was at the center of the Universe, figuratively speaking .
6. All my Teachers in school (whom i greatly respected and
enjoyed) taught atheistic ideologies / worldview .
7. As Evolutionist Julian Huxley said during a TV interview in 1969 when asked the benefit of Darwinnian Evolution :' Having no personal Creator
(viz.God) , coincided with my sexual mores' -- Huxley .

What I found convincing about atheism , at the time :

1. I looked upon my Teachers and School Text Books as virtually
infallable and thus a very reliable truth source , so i accepted all
they taught without question .
2. Atheisms idelogies and constructs... from a worldview and from
sociology.... best fit in with my daily lifestyle choices and
philosophies for having fun (casual sex particularly) .

What made me change my views about atheism :

1. Some atheistic ideologies were impossible to live out , truthfully
and without being hypocritical (ie: moral relativism) .
2. I became aware that the atheistic ideologies as represented by our
American Culture , were destructive and dangerous to people....and
this concerned me as i was getting deeper into them.
3. I found it took an incredible amount of faith to believe in
atheistic origins of the universe and first life on earth.
4. I found that an atheistic material universe (materialism) is not
capable of things like reason, logic, truth, love, freewill .
5. I found there are no logical atheistic explanations for the 150+
razor precise Life Enabling Constants and Physics Constants
(anthropics) which have been scientifically discovered and are
measurable to (in some cases) a 120th decimal point critical tolerance
otherwise our Cosmos is not here and niether are we. I could accept a
few by coincidental chance, but not over 150 which are all dependent
on each other.
6. I discovered in myself that I wanted to follow the truth
regardless of where it led, instead of patronizing myself into
following something I had no more confidence in.
7. I heavily investigated Theism from a scientific standpoint
including the remarkable design and engineering of things ...and
concluded that it is absurd to think it all just happened by chance
without a shred of purpose or reason.
8. I heavily investigated Christianity as well as all other major
world religions, and discovered the New Testament of the Bible to
offer more accurate historical evidences for Christ , his
ressurection, and what he claimed about himself....that it was very
compelling. I read about THE worlds most famous expert on Court of
Law evidential techniques who put the New Testament to a very
stringent test, who traded in his agnosticism to become a Christ
Follower based purely on the scientific and historical
evidences ...and I found this very compelling.
9. I discovered that modern scientific discoveries are proving the
Bible correct and are leading to a personal theistic Creator which the
Bible describes in great detail.

 

[Stormwave]

I'm not going to stay in this discussion anymore, as we're just going round in circles, and will continue to. But let me leave you with one last thought.

Get a coin. Toss the coin, if it lands on heads write a H on a piece of paper, if it's tails, write a T. Continue this 63 more times. You will end up with a sequence of Hs and Ts. The odds of you getting that exact sequence is 1 in 18,446,744,073,709,551,615. And yet there it is. The thing with statistics is, they only matter with a specified goal. An unspecified goal means there is 100% chance of getting any sequence.

I believe we are a long, long sequence of chance. We are not a specified goal, therefore statistics do not matter. We may have turned out completely differently, and in all likelihood not at all. But here we are, we are a sequence that resulted in us being here. The probability that that happened is 100%.

The Boeing 747 theory proves a lack of understanding of statistics, as that presumes that we are a specified goal, which I don't believe we are.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

I'm not going to stay in this discussion anymore, as we're just going round in circles, and will continue to. But let me leave you with one last thought.

Get a coin. Toss the coin, if it lands on heads write a H on a piece of paper, if it's tails, write a T. Continue this 63 more times. You will end up with a sequence of Hs and Ts. The odds of you getting that exact sequence is 1 in 18,446,744,073,709,551,615. And yet there it is. The thing with statistics is, they only matter with a specified goal. An unspecified goal means there is 100% chance of getting any sequence.

I believe we are a long, long sequence of chance. We are not a specified goal, therefore statistics do not matter. We may have turned out completely differently, and in all likelihood not at all. But here we are, we are a sequence that resulted in us being here. The probability that that happened is 100%.

The Boeing 747 theory proves a lack of understanding of statistics, as that presumes that we are a specified goal, which I don't believe we are.

Well, before you leave the Discussion, could i please ask you to come clean as to why you dont want a personal theistic Creator to exist for the highly personal effects in creation that are readily seen by all Humans ? Ive only had one other alleged 'Atheist' come right out and say 'No One is going to tell me how to live MY life -- not even God' .

 

[Stormwave]

Well, before you leave the Discussion, could i please ask you to come clean as to why you dont want a personal theistic Creator to exist for the highly personal effects in creation that are readily seen by all Humans ? Ive only had one other alleged 'Atheist' come right out and say 'No One is going to tell me how to live MY life -- not even God' .

I'm not really sure what you mean. Are you implying that it should be obvious that God exists, and I don't want to believe in him for selfish reasons?

If so, you couldn't be further from the truth. I actively seek to be proven wrong, a concept that is likely to be unfamiliar to you, hence why I am on these forums, but I have yet to see a single argument I agree with.

I find it extremely ignorant for you to take that viewpoint, and judge me and my world view without knowing anything about it.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

I'm not really sure what you mean. Are you implying that it should be obvious that God exists, and I don't want to believe in him for selfish reasons?

If so, you couldn't be further from the truth. I actively seek to be proven wrong, a concept that is likely to be unfamiliar to you, hence why I am on these forums, but I have yet to see a single argument I agree with.

I find it extremely ignorant for you to take that viewpoint, and judge me and my world view without knowing anything about it.

Im not implying...im factually stating that it IS more than obvious that what we have always requires a personal Creator/Designer and that can be simply deduced from what we CAN observe . As a professed 'Atheist' of 10 adult years, I played the game too because i didnt want God to be real due to the enormous implications to my life. It is not ignorant nor judgemental of me to state such , because the following universal truth has applied to all generations : Romans 1:18-22 NIV - God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity - Bible Gateway .

Instead of seeking to be proven wrong , why not diligently seek to prove Gods existence true --- and that requires a completely unbiased Mind and a Will to totally surrender your life to where it leads ; thus in the end Pride may become the real issue. Regards. End.

 

[AllanV]

I'm not really sure what you mean. Are you implying that it should be obvious that God exists, and I don't want to believe in him for selfish reasons?

If so, you couldn't be further from the truth. I actively seek to be proven wrong, a concept that is likely to be unfamiliar to you, hence why I am on these forums, but I have yet to see a single argument I agree with.

I find it extremely ignorant for you to take that viewpoint, and judge me and my world view without knowing anything about it.

There is something attached to the self and it magnifies and projects the personality as seen by others. The personality drives the person and an example is if five engineers were to fix a machine they would all approach the job differently. They would probably disagree to the point nothing would get done initially. Some wouldn't have the skills to do the repair properly but would possibly argue that they were the best until the results showed otherwise.

The personality could bias any outcome or method.

The Bible states that there is a spirit of Satan that influences the whole world. This spirit stands in the place of God in the mind. It is attached to the self and therefore a bias is established in the mind against God.

 

[trulyconverted]

I have yet to encounter a Christian who has sufficient evidence to believe that God exists. So I am curious what evidence the Christians in here have to justify their belief that the Christian God exists.

I do have evidence, but it is only I and God who know for certain that the evidence is present. That is why personal belief in God is something very personal between the person and the Lord. I think the best person to ask for evidence is God Himself, maybe He will provide you with one.