What errors and inventions arose in Roman Catholicism?

[Pteriax]

Albion, you truly do not have a full understanding of this. It is via their intercessions, not their power or ability, that prayers are answered. The key word here is intercession.

What the petitioner is attributing to the saint, is their superior relationship to the Lord, that He will answer their prayers.

Why can't God answer the prayers?

 

[Pteriax]

Is this Protestant idol worship?

If you assume the hands belong to a protestant, yes. I would never pray like that, nor would anyone I know. But the difference is that idolatry is taught by the RCC and there is no protestant denomination that teaches this.

 

[Metal Minister]

Smh, this has all gone over to the ridiculous, and has become nothing but an attack on one another, rather than a discussion on beliefs and proofs. I'm out. Root of Jesse, if you'd like to continue our discussion, pm me, because I've honestly lost where we left off amongst everything going on in this thread. God bless all!

 

[sonshine234]

If God decides to give someone in heaven the means of hearing all these prayers, do you think that this is beyond Him to do? Seriously, do you really have any concept of what we will be able to do and not do in heaven? You are limiting God here.

Many Protestants give lip service to the fact that God is all powerful, but in practice do not believe such. They believe He can only do what they think He can and no more because "it's not in the Bible"

 

[Tzaousios]

Okay, God told the people to do all of that through the prophet Moses. The RCC decided on its own apart from God to create statues and bow to them. See the difference? The RCC speaks presumptuously in this case. God never told you to do it, He expressly forbade it, and yet you persist in doing it.

Thus, even though Catholics may be venerating an image in the exact same way they were instructed to do so by OT prophets, it takes another prophet to tell them to do it again in order for Pteriax to get his way. Anything to justify one's presuppositions, I guess.

 

[Pteriax]

Many Protestants give lip service to the fact that God is all powerful, but in practice do not believe such. They believe He can only do what they think He can and no more because "it's not in the Bible"

It's not even about that. It's contrary to what God has already said that He does do, and what happens when people do die. Of course He could, but then He could also turn you into a chicken - doesn't mean He will.

 

[Pteriax]

Thus, even though Catholics may be venerating an image in the exact same way they were instructed to do so by OT prophets, it takes another prophet to tell them to do it again in order for Pteriax to get his way. Anything to justify one's presuppositions, I guess.

It is not in the exact same way, as I have explained several times. It's not a presupposition either. I cited specific verses, I gave context, etc. Comparing statues (or apparitions) of Mary to the ark of the covenant is just a bit insane. God was very specific with His instructions in Exodus, both regarding the ark (and serpent) and in making images apart from His instruction to bow to. The fact is that statues of Mary are being idolized in direct defiance of the first and second commandments.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by sonshine234

Many Protestants give lip service to the fact that God is all powerful, but in practice do not believe such.
They believe He can only do what they think He can and no more because "it's not in the Bible"
​

What a broad brush you paint with!
We could probably say the same thing about a lot of pew warming RCs.





.

 

[Tzaousios]

It is not in the exact same way, as I have explained several times.

I said "may" hypothetically in order to show that it is based upon self-validating your own presuppositions. It would take a prophet saying the exact same thing in the present context so that you can get your way.

It's not a presupposition either. I cited specific verses, I gave context, etc.

It is your presupposition, as you have already stated how much you hate Catholicism and equate it with paganism. Citing prooftext verses is only an exercise in the aforementioned self-validation.

What "context" did you give, considering that you just transposed the OT context of the conquest of Canaan to the present Christian context so that you could preserve your presuppositions?

The fact is that statues of Mary are being idolized in direct defiance of the first and second commandments.

But it is not being idolized, as you have been told on a number of occasions. It must be idolized, though, in order for you to maintain the aforementioned presuppositions. Everyone understands this.

 

[Pteriax]

I said "may" hypothetically in order to show that it is based upon self-validating your own presuppositions. It would take a prophet saying the exact same thing in the present context so that you can get your way.



It is your presupposition, as you have already stated how much you hate Catholicism and equate it with paganism. Citing prooftext verses is only an exercise in the aforementioned self-validation.

What "context" did you give, considering that you just transposed the OT context of the conquest of Canaan to the present Christian context so that you could preserve your presuppositions?



But it is not being idolized, as you have been told on a number of occasions. It must be idolized, though, in order for you to maintain the aforementioned presuppositions. Everyone understands this.

Just saying it's not idolatry does not make it so. It still totally is. And as I said, if you think the second commandment had to do with the conquest of Canaan, then you must apply that to all ten commandments; as opposed to making them general rules that still apply today (IE breaking one is a sin).

 

[Tzaousios]

Just saying it's not idolatry does not make it so. It still totally is. And as I said, if you think the second commandment had to do with the conquest of Canaan, then you must apply that to all ten commandments; as opposed to making them general rules that still apply today (IE breaking one is a sin).

Just saying it is idolatry does not make it so, either. You have been told that the statue is not being worshiped, neither in the OT context nor in a Christian context. Therefore it does not break the commandment.

Everyone still understands that it must be shown to break the commandment if the aniconic, iconoclastic presuppositions of radical Protestantism are to be maintained.

 

[Erose]

Okay, God told the people to do all of that through the prophet Moses. The RCC decided on its own apart from God to create statues and bow to them. See the difference?

No I do not see the difference. Are you now claiming that we should sit on our hands, until God sends a prophet to tell us what to do? Or how do you know that it wasn't mandated by God through a prophet? It seems that Moses did so. Or are you saying that Christian Churches are not comparable to Jewish worship buildings?

The RCC speaks presumptuously in this case. God never told you to do it, He expressly forbade it, and yet you persist in doing it.

RCC reads and understands Scripture, and understands it, so that unlike your assertions, it doesn't conflict with Scripture.

 

[Erose]

I never said you view her as a goddess. I said you bow to her statues and pray to her. I also said that she is not omnipresent, which is a requirement for a being to be able to answer prayers, so the RCC must think she is omnipresent. I corrected that notion by saying that only God is omnipresent. Again, I did not say that you think she is a goddess.

and I also corrected you false understanding on this subject, by pointing out simply, that you are assuming much, about the capacity of those already in heaven.

No, you are limiting God. You limit Him by claiming He needs all these saints to help answer prayers and dispense grace.

Show me were I said He needs anyone. Again putting words out there that are not there. One thing that the Bible is very explicit on, and that is that God LOVES to work through His Children, and makes His presence felt more through them, than through miracles. The Bible is full of stories of God's work through His Prophets and Saints. It's the way He works, so why would this be shut off when we get to heaven?

God said through His prophet to make certain specific images. I ask again, when did God tell the RCC through a prophet to make statues of Mary and bow to them?

When He said that through the Holy Spirit He will guide His Church into all Truth. You misunderstand the roll of a prophet. A Prophet proclaims the Word of God, this doesn't necessarily require predicting the future. The Church as a whole is God's Prophet. The church through her ministers, proclaims the Word of God. The time of the Prophets hasn't ended, in fact if anything, we are all called to be Prophets, in that we are suppose to bring God's word to the world.

 

[Erose]

Why can't God answer the prayers?

God is the one answering the prayers. If you intercede for someone, and their prayer is answered, are you the one that answered the prayer? Of course not! The same holds for the saints in heaven, they may intercede for you, just as you may intercede for others. The biggest difference, is that relationship with God has been perfected, where ours has not as of yet.

Remember what St James says:
James 5:16b For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. [17] Elias was a man passible like unto us: and with prayer he prayed that it might not rain upon the earth, and it rained not for three years and six months. [18] And he prayed again: and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

 

[Rev Randy]

No, that looks to be a posed photo for a magazine or something. Oh, are you saying only Protestants pray and read the Bible?

No. I'm saying that what's around you may not be what you're worshipping. It could be what inspired you to pray.

 

[Rev Randy]

That is not what I said, I bow to no man. But you gave examples that did not relate to what you were defending, which is idolatry by the way.

God indeed said not to make and worship graven images. Then He promptly told them to make this: Numbers 21:8
So did he mean to make no gods or not to carve?

 

[ImaginaryDay]

It means that when prayers to saints--Mary included but not the only one--that include testimonies to the ability of that saint to deliver, on their own, what is asked for or, in some cases, what supposedly was promised by them before...

...the petitioner is NOT merely venerating that saint, his memory, etc. He's attributing to him or her a power that only God has.

What's more, it isn't made any better if you say that they are just administering the distribution of benefits on behalf of God. One example is the very popular belief among Roman Catholics that Mary is the "dispenser of all graces" by which it is explained that no good thing comes to us (from God) unless Mary first approves of it!

Whatever you call it, that is a wrongful practice.

Albion, you truly do not have a full understanding of this. It is via their intercessions, not their power or ability, that prayers are answered. The key word here is intercession.

What the petitioner is attributing to the saint, is their superior relationship to the Lord, that He will answer their prayers.

The bolded, and especially the part in red, is not exactly true. Another thread states this of the Virgin Mary in the OP:

Able to preserve both flesh and spirit from death she bestowed health-giving salve on bodies and souls

Source:http://www.christianforums.com/t7768562/#post64008286.

I contended in that thread (and will here as well) that it attributes to Mary that which only Christ can do (preserving flesh and spirit from death).

 

[Pteriax]

Just saying it is idolatry does not make it so, either. You have been told that the statue is not being worshiped, neither in the OT context nor in a Christian context. Therefore it does not break the commandment.

Everyone still understands that it must be shown to break the commandment if the aniconic, iconoclastic presuppositions of radical Protestantism are to be maintained.

What because I have been told that? Would the sky be green if I had been told that too? Ridiculous!

 

[sonshine234]

What a broad brush you paint with!
We could probably say the same thing about a lot of pew warming RCs.





.

Apparently you missed the word "Many" at the start of the sentence, hence no broad brush. Now had I left off the word "Many" that would be broad brush

 

[Pteriax]

No I do not see the difference. Are you now claiming that we should sit on our hands, until God sends a prophet to tell us what to do? Or how do you know that it wasn't mandated by God through a prophet? It seems that Moses did so. Or are you saying that Christian Churches are not comparable to Jewish worship buildings?


RCC reads and understands Scripture, and understands it, so that unlike your assertions, it doesn't conflict with Scripture.

You really don't see the difference in God telling you to do something, and just deciding on your own? Really?

No, they do not understand scripture. They twist scripture to fit whatever they want it to.