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What does "We all agree X is wrong -> objective morality" actually mean
- Thread starter perplexed
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Some people in the American politics forum love saying
"We all know torturing children is wrong so there must be objective morality" but many people don't understand what they mean by "objective morality" so I want them to explain it in a very different way I think getting them to use scripture is a good way of forcing this to happen
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Clare73
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Does not the text state that we were baptized into his death? That we were buried with Christ into death?
And that being united with him in his death, we will likewise be united with him in his resurrection?
So baptism is not about the new birth, which new birth is reception of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Rather, baptism is about death to sin and resurrection to a new life in Christ (Romans 6:2-14).
What we have here is the sacramental union, wherein the symbol is used to refer to the reality.
Baptism symbolizes Christ's death and resurrection (Romans 6:2-5) which saves us.
Actually, we do not die to sin and rise to a new life in Christ each time we fall (sin).
Christ died once and rose once, permanently.
Death to sin and new life in Christ is a one-time permanent transaction.
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Oompa Loompa
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Objective morality is not dependent on the subjective opinion of the majority. Even if the subjective consensus is unanimous, it still doesn't determine whether that morality is objective.
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Did you ever say anything like "I accept Christ as my savior?" If so, you HAVE been born again of the Holy Spirit and you can abide in the bosom of the Lord as long as you like. If not, my religion says that if you basically follow the golden rule, your own deeds can save you. So either way, I think your ticket is punched. You're going to glory hereafter!
. May God bless you in any case.
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Clare73
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Now if only Jesus did not state the contrary. . .(John 3:18)Did you ever say anything like "I accept Christ as my savior?" If so, you HAVE been born again of the Holy Spirit and you can abide in the bosom of the Lord as long as you like. If not,
my religion says that if you basically follow the golden rule, your own deeds can save you.
So either way, I think your ticket is punched. You're going to glory hereafter!
May God bless you in any case.
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Bradskii
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Well, Oompa, it's not very often that we agree. But...we agree. So the term 'it's wrong, everyone believes it to be wrong, therefore it's objectively wrong' is not valid. If there is a reason for it being objectively wrong, everyone believing it to be wrong is not the reason. The correct term (for someone who believes there is an objective morality) would be 'it's wrong and everyone believes it to be wrong AND it's objectively wrong because of...X, Y and Z'.
As it might be noted in the other thread where this is being discussed (I don't know why on earth this is in American Politics as an OP), it is extraordinarily difficult to find out what X, Y and Z actually is - with the exception of variations on 'It is written'. But what about instances where it is not written?
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Hans Blaster
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Since you weren't in the thread that spawned this one, it was driven completely off the rails by a circular argument about morality that largely came down to a repeated claims that some of us knew what was moral because one particular NT letter writer claimed we did. It got very tiring. It was bothersome in no small part because of repeated claims that we "knew" things that we said we did not. There is no one that knows your own thoughts better than you do, so it is annoying to be told by some random stranger on the internet that they know you better than you do. So...
I'm not interested in anyone's claim that I can or will be "saved" or that I already am. I gave up religion 20 years ago and I have no need for it or "spirituality", nor any such interest.
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Hans Blaster
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Christians often have asynchronous revelations, but we will agree when we see Jesus according to 1 John 3:2. All Born Again believers are "works in progress."
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Bradskii
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I was thinking about solving moral problems now rather than wait. So if there are conflicting revelations, how do we know which one is right?
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Because in the other thread did not give explanations I could understand and I have heard other people making similar arguments when discussing American politics
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Bradskii
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The original question specifically asked about problems that are not addressed in scripture. If I gave an example I'm sure that you might find something in scripture which you could say helped you make a decision. I'm equally sure that someone else who disagreed with you would find something in scripture that would back their opposing view.
It's like revelation. How do we know who is correct?
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BPPLEE
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Being Baptized doesn't make you born again. You can go down a dry sinner and come up a wet sinner. Repenting of your sins and accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior makes you born again. Then you should be baptized.
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Morality is one's best, current understanding of Truth, not its fullness. In that regard, it is much like competing scientific hypotheses.
Even Christians, who are converging on Christ-likeness, do not yet have a monopoly on Truth. God's people will still make mistakes as we progress. The difference between a believer's mistakes and those of an unbeliever, eternally speaking, is that those of the former are under grace. That grace is only promised to those who are surrendered to Jesus.
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