What does the US "Pledge of Allegiance" mean to you?

[Tuzmin]

Whether you accept it or want to live in denial this country was founded upon Judeo-Christian beliefs, but in that it is not imposed. No one is forcing you to be a Christian but that is our heritage.

"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no [organized] religion in it" – John Adams

So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a ****** fake... Religion is all bunk. – Thomas Edison

“I do not believe in the divinity of Christ, and there are many other of the postulates of the orthodox creed to which I cannot subscribe.” - President William Howard Taft

“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” - President Thomas Jefferson

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." -- Thomas Jefferson



"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ." -- Thomas Jefferson



"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." -- John Adams


"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." -- John Adams

“The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." -Thomas Jefferson


Would you like examples from modern authors? Or are two of the most influential people in the founding of our great nation good enough for you?

If I really tried I could also find stuff from Thomas Paine.

 

[Force]

"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no [organized] religion in it" – John Adams

So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a ****** fake... Religion is all bunk. – Thomas Edison

“I do not believe in the divinity of Christ, and there are many other of the postulates of the orthodox creed to which I cannot subscribe.” - President William Howard Taft

“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” - President Thomas Jefferson

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." -- Thomas Jefferson



"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ." -- Thomas Jefferson



"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." -- John Adams


"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." -- John Adams

“The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." -Thomas Jefferson


Would you like examples from modern authors? Or are two of the most influential people in the founding of our great nation good enough for you?

If I really tried I could also find stuff from Thomas Paine.

how about you give sources and context here...just look at these and they say the exact opposite...

http://www.christianamerica.com/pres_quotes.htm

 

[Palatka44]

how about you give sources and context here...just look at these and they say the exact opposite...

http://www.christianamerica.com/pres_quotes.htm

It's a very easy thing to type something and then say that is what so&so said 200+ years ago when they are no longer here to explain why and by what context they said it or to simply ask if it is something they said. Thank you force for giving us a referance to the quotes by posting the above link.

 

[Havoc]

It's a very easy thing to type something and then say that is what so&so said 200+ years ago when they are no longer here to explain why and by what context they said it or to simply ask if it is something they said.

And yet you will claim absolute truth about things written 2000 years ago, ten times more distant in time....

I'm going to have to start buying Irony Meters wholesale.

 

[Jacob4Jesus]

And yet you will claim absolute truth about things written 2000 years ago, ten times more distant in time....

I'm going to have to start buying Irony Meters wholesale.

I have to agree with you on this. Quite ironic. However, I think the real arguements against those quotes would be that they are simply opinions stated by people at the time. They are extremely subjective and just because those founding fathers felt that way, doesn't mean that everyone else should.

 

[burrow_owl]

What does the Pledge of Allegience mean to me? Well, it kind of reminds me of the swish we had to do right after the pledge.....they were both kind of stupid and vaguely unpleasant.

 

[Palatka44]

And yet you will claim absolute truth about things written 2000 years ago, ten times more distant in time....

I'm going to have to start buying Irony Meters wholesale.

Documents that are sealed in blood have stood the test of time. The Word of God is sealed by the shed blood of His holy Son and I'll trust in it for ever.
The US Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence and this Pledge have been sealed by the blood of those willing to give their lives for it. They will stand only as long as there are those willing to sacrifice themselves for liberty.
Havoc, please let your heart be sealed by the blood of Christ. I do not know why but my heart is burdened for you. I know that you are laughing this off but please heed to this plea today.

 

[LiberalChristian]

I have several problems with the Pledge of Allegiance. Although, many people will take the pledge as an expression of their patriotism, the words they are saying is an oath. When you say this oath you are promising to be loyal to the United States. As Christians we are told that we should not take oaths. Once you take this oath you are bound to be loyal to the United States. In the future if our government was to do something that I could not support, sending my son in to a war that was unjust, I would not be able to support the nation. I could see myself leaving this country, as much as I love it, and living in another country forsaking my citizenship. As a Christian, if the nation were to demand of me something that was a sin I would be compelled to do so.



A couple of other points, the addition of “under God” to the pledge was wrong. Initially, the pledge was written as a socialist statement. Its meaning was changed by congress when they added the phrase. This in essence was theft of the author’s intellectual property. The author in fact was disenchanted with religion and Christianity. Also, the phrase is technically incorrect. While Paul did say that the authority of the government came from God, this was correct at the time yet not all Governments since that time fit this description. The Declaration of Independence clearly states as well as many other of our basic documents clearly state that the authority of the government comes from the consent of the governed. Also, note that the Treaty of Tripoli of 1796 clearly states that we are not a Christian nation. So, we are not a nation under God.



Finally, who is more loyal one who pledges an oath that is the antithesis of the founding principles of the nation, or one who stays true to those principles?

 

[Force]

Also, note that the Treaty of Tripoli of 1796 clearly states that we are not a Christian nation. So, we are not a nation under God.

An article on how the Treaty of Tripoli is misunderstood.
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=5

 

[LiberalChristian]

An article on how the Treaty of Tripoli is misunderstood.
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=5

Good response and interesting article. I need to read it in more detail. But my initial reactions concerns two points. First, the parsing of the treaty’s statements remind me of Bill Clinton parsing statements to hide their true meaning. Second, if this were the only document that supported this concept I might agree with it. I would, however, direct you to the letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson in which he states that the founders of this nation were composed of many different beliefs. This is my opinion substantiates my interpretation of the statement in the treaty.




While I agree the culture was Judeo-Christian, the legal principles were not. Simply read the correspondence between the founding fathers and you will see that the model for our Republic was based more on the ancient civilizations such as Rome and Greece, than on the Bible.

 

[LiberalChristian]

An article on how the Treaty of Tripoli is misunderstood.
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=5

I have reread the web page I would note that at least in one instance a quote is taken out of context. This is refernece #25, in which adams is quoted as saying "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . ." This is said in the April Letter between Adams and Jefferson. The problem is in the little dots before and after the statement.



The full qoute is " Who composed that army of fine young fellows that was then before my eyes? There were among them, Roman Catholic, English Epicopalians, Scotch and American Prebysterians, Thodists, Moravians, Anabaptists, German Lutherans, German Calvanists Unversalists, Arians, Priestleyans, Socinians, Indepdendents, Congregationalists, Horse Prostestants and House Protestansts, DEISTS, and ATHEISTS; and “Prostestants who belieive NOTHING”. Very few however of several of these Specicies, Never the less all Educated in the general principles of Christianity: and the General Principles of English and American Liberty.”



He goes on to outline how the principles of Christianity upon which the nation is based are those principles that are common with other schools of thought at that time and that these principles are the principles of liberty.



I should also note that the subject of the letter is where Adams refutes the very issue at hand, that our Nation was founded on Christian principles. If any one reading this doubts the content of this letter please read the letter in its entirety for yourself. It is the Letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, Dated April 28,1813.



Finally to my main point, the author of the referenced web page took the quote out of context. I am suspicious; therefore, of the rest of the things he has to say. I am not saying he is lying, I am just suspicious.

 

[lared]

I view the pledge of allegiance as an act of worship.

 

[TheBear]

Pledge of Allegiance


In light of the recent appeals court ruling in California, with
respect to the Pledge of Allegiance, the following
recollection from Senator John McCain is very appropriate:.
"The Pledge of Allegiance" - Senator John McCain
As you may know, I spent five and one half years as a prisoner of
war during the Vietnam War. In the early years of
our imprisonment, the NVA kept us in solitary confinement or two
or three to a cell. In 1971 the NVA moved us from these conditions
of isolation into large rooms with as many as 30 to 40 men to a room.
This was,as you can imagine, a wonderful change and was a direct
result of the efforts of millions of Americans on
behalf of a few hundred POWs 10,000 miles from home.
One of the men who moved into my room was
a young man named Mike Christian.
Mike came from a small town near Selma, Alabama.
He didn't wear a pair of shoes until he was 13 years old.
At 17, he enlisted in the US Navy. He later earned a
commission by going to OfficerTraining School.
Then he became a Naval Flight Officer and was shot down and
captured in 1967. Mike had a keen and deep appreciation of the
opportunities this country and our military
provide for people who want to work and want to succeed.
As part of the change in treatment, the Vietnamese allowed some
prisoners to receive packages from home. In some of these packages were handkerchiefs, scarves and other items of clothing.
Mike got himself a bamboo needle. Over a period of a couple of
months, he created an American flag and sewed on the inside of his shirt.
Every afternoon, before we had a bowl of soup, we would hang Mike's shirt on the wall of the cell and say the Pledge of Allegiance.
I know the Pledge of Allegiance may not seem the most important
part of our day now, but I can assure you that in that stark cell it was indeed the most important and meaningful event.

One day the Vietnamese searched our cell, as they did
periodically,and discovered Mike's shirt with the flag sewn inside,
and removed it.

That evening they returned, opened the door of the cell, and for
the benefit of all of us, beat Mike Christian severely for the next couple of hours.
Then, they opened the door of the cell
and threw him in. We cleaned him up as well as we could.
The cell in which we lived had a concrete slab in the middle on
which we slept. Four naked light bulbs hung in each corner of the room.
As I said, we tried to clean up Mike as well as we could.
After the excitement died down, I looked in the corner of the room, and sitting there beneath that dim light bulb with a piece
of red cloth, another shirt and his bamboo needle, was my friend, Mike Christian. He was sitting there with his eyes almost
shut from the beating he had received, making another American flag. He was not making the flag because it made Mike Christian feel better. He was making that flag because he knew how important it was to us to be able to Pledge our allegiance to our flag and country.

So the next time you say the Pledge of
Allegiance, you must never forget the sacrifice and courage that thousands of Americans have made to build our nation and promote freedom around the world.

You must remember our duty, our honor, and our country.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
United States of America
and to the republic for which it stands, one nation
under God, indivisible,with liberty and justice for all."

Good golly!! Could you shout any louder?

 

[TLGitom]

Good golly!! Could you shout any louder?

I'm Sorry! Ahem...... sorry I just copied and pasted this email from my Aunt. Did not think it would show up as a shout. I hope that it doesn't break some rule and you are not about to ax it.
Isn't it amazing though how many reading this story (of what these men went through) just casualy cast it off as nothing just because it contains "under God"? Very few responding to this thread have expressed any gratitude for those brave men who sacrificed their blood so they can have the freedom to express their veiw.

 

[TheBear]

No rule broken, but....Yikes!!!

 

[seebs]

Generally, I am supportive of complete seperation of church and state, but the whole arguement over the pledge seems kinda pointless to me. Supreme Court Decisions have already stated that you don't have to recite the pledge if you don't want to.

But schools regularly punish children and ostracize them for refusing.

Atheists then say that they should not have to listen to it because it states 'under God" in it.

This has not happened that I know of.

The problem is that schools are still aggressively pushing a corrupted pledge on children who cannot possibly be old enough to meaningfully swear oaths. The right to not say the pledge means nothing when teachers punish kids for not doing it.

 

[Key Of David]

I find no blame in Israel pledging its allegiance to its One Nation under God.

 

[Philosoft]

I find no blame in Israel pledging its allegiance to its One Nation under God.

Except that, in reality, Israel should be thanking the US (and England, I suppose) every day it's not overrun by its Islamic neighbors.

 

[Jacob4Jesus]

But schools regularly punish children and ostracize them for refusing.



This has not happened that I know of.

The problem is that schools are still aggressively pushing a corrupted pledge on children who cannot possibly be old enough to meaningfully swear oaths. The right to not say the pledge means nothing when teachers punish kids for not doing it.

I hate to disagree, but if you read this whole thread you would see that someone is saying that listening to "Under God" is harmful to children who are atheists. The case going to the Supreme Court is going for this exact reason.

The problem isn't whether or not people are forced to say the pledge or not. The Supreme Court already ruled a long time ago that no one is forced to say the pledge if they don't want to. If teachers are punishing kids for it, then the kids parents should be doing something about it. The teachers would be in violation of that Supreme Court mandate that has already been stated. If the parents don't do anything, they have no one to blame but themselves since the government has already ruled on this.

 

[feral]

Unfortunately the pledge of allegiance seems to mean unquestioning blind loyalty of the country to some. That's the only reason I ever disapprove of making it mandatory, or even saying it at all...

To me it means that I am loyal to the country in the sense of working towards improvements and betterments, and that I am appreciative of the many things the country has provided for me. I realize that many people have worked hard to give me the place I live and rights I enjoy (even the right to criticise) and I appreciate that...