What does the fate of children and the mentally ill tell us about salvation?

mcarans

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misinterpretation. let me see if I can rephrase my post, and get both of us passed the language differences, and onto the same page, ok?

My original post:
"What it tells us is that we live in a hostile environment, where the natives are determined to kill both the young and the elderly as quickly as possible. Salvation is indeed our only hope."

from the first part of the first sentence: we as Christians live in a world that is usually hostile to us and to our spiritual beliefs, because in the world today, there is a great resurgence of other political beliefs, which tend to run along the lines of Socialist, Marxist, Atheist, and Communist thinking.
(none of those beliefs are native to either the USA or to Denmark, by the way.).

Those other beliefs which are contrary to Christianity have been gaining ground in the last few centuries, to the point that they have many influential followers who themselves have a great deal of political and economic power.
The reference to the natives means that this world, although created by God, first became the habitation of Satan when he was thrown out of Heaven, and down to Earth as it's first inhabitant, along with his followers, the rebellious angels who followed his ideas in opposition to God.
Adam and Eve, created by God, and intended to rule over the Earth, were tricked by satan into false beliefs that in turn led to their fall from God's grace. So now instead of a beautiful world populated by two perfect people who loved and followed God, we now had satan who tricked everyone (and still does today).

God saw that, and He knew that only an intervention could possibly save mankind and get things back on track the way God always wanted them to go. He is still working on that plan, by the way, but through His grace and His mercy, He stays his hand of retribution until all the evil that can possibly be done by satan has been.
Only then will His retribution be meted out on satan and his followers, who will be locked away forever, and will suffer the wrath of God forever.

Then at last, God will recreate both a new Heaven and a new Earth: free of all taint of sin. And things will finally be as God always intended that they be.

The reference to the natives refers to those who were tricked by satan who planned to overthrow God Himself and rule over this Earth and Heaven, and to those who are still subject to satan and his influences today.

P.S. By God's grace, my own ancestors on my paternal grandmother's side come from Aarhus, Denmark, and they were Christians.
Some of her family went on to become missionaries who served in 3 different countries, teaching and baptizing, while others were Christian ministers and Conference speakers.
I have Christians on both sides of my family. On my father's grandfather's side the Christians go all the way back for more than 12 generations. And on my mother's side of the family I can trace back Christian ancestors who included one of the Pilgrims who sailed to Plymouth Rock.
So yes, by the grace of God, I have huge shoes to fill.
Thank you for your clarification and family background.

You may be interested in my testimony describing my journey from atheism to faith and how it changed my views:
How following Christ transformed my views and what I learnt in my journey from atheism
 
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JacksBratt

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View attachment 270812
I asked people on this forum to consider who might be saved from a list of cases. The purpose of the exercise was to see how we Christians understand salvation. What it highlighted was how the fate of children and those mentally handicapped in some way is so dear to us that many cannot in good conscience imagine a God that fails to save them.

While laudable, most acknowledged that there is scant Biblical support for this view which, if we're willing to accept and resolve the cognitive dissonance, could lead us to abandon our preconceived notions of salvation and consider a different interpretation of the Bible. More on all this here:

What does the fate of children and the mentally ill tell us about salvation?
In the article that you referred to... it makes this statement:

I think the challenge for people who think all infants are saved (and that’s most of us) is showing why the same shouldn’t apply to adults.”

Anyone that cannot discern between adults and infants, or mentally ill, in the responsibility for their beliefs and actions... doesn't warrant further attention.


I mean, seriously... do you, a mere mortal parent, discipline your infant for soiling its diaper?

NO.... and why? Because it is incapable of being held accountable for it's actions.
 
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Archivist

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I saw that the poster is based in the US so assumed he was talking about his own country not the world in general. His comment though makes as little sense if taken to mean the whole world since by that definition we are all natives and personally I am not determined to kill young or old and would prefer not to deal with such accusations.
From the movie The Great Race:

  • The Great Leslie: Are you a native of Boracho?
  • Lily Olay: I ain't no native. I was born here!
 
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mcarans

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In the article that you referred to... it makes this statement:

I think the challenge for people who think all infants are saved (and that’s most of us) is showing why the same shouldn’t apply to adults.”

Anyone that cannot discern between adults and infants, or mentally ill, in the responsibility for their beliefs and actions... doesn't warrant further attention.


I mean, seriously... do you, a mere mortal parent, discipline your infant for soiling its diaper?

NO.... and why? Because it is incapable of being held accountable for it's actions.
Where does the Bible talk about this?
 
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JacksBratt

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Where does the Bible talk about this?
So, you think that Christ is going to say that the infant rejected Him? OR that the mentally challenged person is without excuse?

How can an infant, or mentally challenged person "Believe", "Have Faith", "repent", "Ask for forgiveness" or "accept that they are sinners" if they cannot even know their name.. or comprehend why crossing a street is dangerous?

My belief is that God is "Love personified". If you, a person striving to be like God.. but falling well short... can understand that you don't discipline an infant for soiling it's diaper.. Or discipline a mentally challenged person for peeing on a sidewalk.... Then how could God condemn them?

It's not in the bible because it's a no brainer......

If you were face to face with Christ.. and stated.. "Well, we didn't know if you sent infants to hell or not".. What do you think He would say... knowing what you do about Him?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Where does the Bible talk about this?

There's a lot which Scripture doesn't mention.

And the judgment of each and every individual is one of those things that doesn't get mentioned. We have no basis for determining who is and isn't saved.

Rather we know that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and so none is with an excuse; but all have fallen short and all have been justified (Romans 3:21-29, 5:18-20). It's why the Apostle St. Paul goes on to say that God consigned all to disobedience that He might have mercy on all. The universality of our broken condition is an unavoidable fact--but it is God who turns toward a universally broken world and provides a universal salvation and universal grace. Note: By universal I do not mean "universalism" as in "everyone will be saved no matter what"; I speak of Christ's universal work and of the universal application of that work--Christ died for all, and the Gospel is for all, and God desires the salvation of all.

The biblical perspective is that God is our Savior, indeed He is "the Savior of all human beings, especially those who believe" (1 Timothy 4:10). He is not our Savior on the back burner, or a recluse who must be sought out--He is the One who seeks us out, He comes down to us, He finds us we don't find Him. This is the message that is repeated time and time and time against throughout Scripture, throughout the long history of God's relationship with the world in history. God came down to Abraham, God came down to Moses, God came down to the Mountain in Sinai, God came down to the Prophets. It is God who came down in the Incarnation, it is God who comes down through His word, it is God who comes down in the Sacraments. God always comes down, we never go up. Indeed, on the very last day, at the consummation of all history--God comes down, Christ returns, the heavenly city descends, and God dwells with His People and they will be His people and He will be their God, and God will be all in all. God always comes down.

That's a God who is for the salvation of the world. That is why when we look at all the different possible permutations and possible circumstances of where people might be in this life, we don't get to start thinking we can say, "You, you, you are in, but not you". We don't know that. We can't know that. We can only say, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner." And then turn to our neighbor and say, "God demonstrates His love toward us in that when we were still sinners, Christ died for us." We preach the Gospel. The Gospel, not, "Oh, you need to do all these things to get right with God" but the Gospel, God loves you, He sent His only-begotten Son for you, Christ died for you, God forgives you. You, the person hearing this word, this word is for you, for all. For everyone. And beautifully and wonderfully amazing, this word is actually a living word, it is the very power of God to save us. That's what the Gospel is.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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DamianWarS

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I saw that the poster is based in the US so assumed he was talking about his own country not the world in general. His comment though makes as little sense if taken to mean the whole world since by that definition we are all natives and personally I am not determined to kill young or old and would prefer not to deal with such accusations.
they make less sense applied to native Americans.
 
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