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Featured What does the fate of children and the mentally ill tell us about salvation?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by mcarans, Jan 24, 2020.

  1. mcarans

    mcarans Well-Known Member Supporter

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    child of God.jpg
    I asked people on this forum to consider who might be saved from a list of cases. The purpose of the exercise was to see how we Christians understand salvation. What it highlighted was how the fate of children and those mentally handicapped in some way is so dear to us that many cannot in good conscience imagine a God that fails to save them.

    While laudable, most acknowledged that there is scant Biblical support for this view which, if we're willing to accept and resolve the cognitive dissonance, could lead us to abandon our preconceived notions of salvation and consider a different interpretation of the Bible. More on all this here:

    What does the fate of children and the mentally ill tell us about salvation?
     
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  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Who has "preconceived notions" ?

    If someone only believes the Bible, and trusts the Father for His Wisdom and His Knowledge in Jesus,
    should they change their "notions" for other notions ?



    Is it "laudable" if wrong ?
     
  3. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Traditional Catholic Supporter

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    What it tells us is that we live in a hostile environment, where the natives are determined to kill both the young and the elderly as quickly as possible. Salvation is indeed our only hope.
     
  4. mcarans

    mcarans Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What gives you the right to make sweeping judgments about Native Americans?
     
  5. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    oops**. Theer is no indication the poster was referring to them.

    The earth natives, the natives, the earthlings, ARE determined to kill both the young and the elderly according to all Scripture.

    This may include Native Americans in general, as natives of earth (i.e. HUMANS) , but is not what the poster said.

    **perhaps language difference ? (just noticed overseas)
     
  6. mcarans

    mcarans Well-Known Member Supporter

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    People have preconceived notions because their understanding of the Bible does not come purely from their own reading of it but from what they have been told by others and in particular where others have influenced how to understand particular passages concerning salvation.

    It is laudable in the sense that they care about the fate of children and mentally handicapped.
     
  7. mcarans

    mcarans Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I saw that the poster is based in the US so assumed he was talking about his own country not the world in general. His comment though makes as little sense if taken to mean the whole world since by that definition we are all natives and personally I am not determined to kill young or old and would prefer not to deal with such accusations.
     
  8. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    No, there was no indication he was referring to Native Americans.
    Yes, he was talking (I expect) about the world overall,
    and his comment is totally in line with what the governments and society of the whole world does,
    consistently ,
    as written in and throughout all Scripture.... (yes, by definition, and even if not by definition) ...

    "Personally, " ? If someone is part of society not serving God the Creator, then they are still guilty of the accusations against society as a whole.
    If someone has been saved out of society, then they can take comfort knowing they were saved from such an existance (society) that the Scripture describes as pernicious (in Galatians, et al, ) .....
     
  9. Peter J Barban

    Peter J Barban Well-Known Member

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    It should tell us that salvation is not a simple transactional event.
     
  10. mcarans

    mcarans Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The society I am a part of is Denmark which provides generous welfare to support young and old. Danish society is not determined to kill young or old.
     
  11. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    This proves that most serve different gods.......with attributes that are inline with our own personal moral standards. Therefore we can make these serve punish and save whomever we feel should be punished or saved.

    I say nay. Everyone gets a chance to live, no one gets express trips to heaven or "hell."
     
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Remember Adam and Havah "died" as soon as they ate the apple (whatever their disobedience was).

    Thus many people walking around on earth today are already dead also.

    And Yahweh the Creator says that all society (all mankind) , except the remnant (the few in Jesus),
    are death dealing (pernicious).

    "Obviously" the physical death is not seen until some future day,
    while the spiritual death is accomplished daily world wide as written in Scripture. (all men are dead in trespasses and sin as written in Scripture, until redeemed) ...

    Most all or all society, in Denmark as well as the rest of the world, is as Yahweh Says Clearly in Scripture.
     
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    What about children, infants, the mentally challenged, people in remote areas who have never heard the gospel, etc?
    Romans 4:15
    (15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
    Romans 5:13
    (13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
     
  14. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Good, tyes.
    And WHO is it , as written, WHO Judges those outside the Ekklesia Assembly ? (those within the Ekklesia are told to judge; those outside are Judged by Yahweh)
     
  15. mcarans

    mcarans Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Perhaps you could elaborate on how these verses relate to salvation?
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    No law= no sin. No sin = no condemnation. No condemnation=no punishment.
     
  17. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Study Bible
    Death in Adam, Life in Christ
    12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. 13

    For sin was in the world before the Law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nev
    ertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come.…
    Berean Study Bible · Download
     
  18. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Traditional Catholic Supporter

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    misinterpretation. let me see if I can rephrase my post, and get both of us passed the language differences, and onto the same page, ok?

    My original post:
    "What it tells us is that we live in a hostile environment, where the natives are determined to kill both the young and the elderly as quickly as possible. Salvation is indeed our only hope."

    from the first part of the first sentence: we as Christians live in a world that is usually hostile to us and to our spiritual beliefs, because in the world today, there is a great resurgence of other political beliefs, which tend to run along the lines of Socialist, Marxist, Atheist, and Communist thinking.
    (none of those beliefs are native to either the USA or to Denmark, by the way.).

    Those other beliefs which are contrary to Christianity have been gaining ground in the last few centuries, to the point that they have many influential followers who themselves have a great deal of political and economic power.
    The reference to the natives means that this world, although created by God, first became the habitation of Satan when he was thrown out of Heaven, and down to Earth as it's first inhabitant, along with his followers, the rebellious angels who followed his ideas in opposition to God.
    Adam and Eve, created by God, and intended to rule over the Earth, were tricked by satan into false beliefs that in turn led to their fall from God's grace. So now instead of a beautiful world populated by two perfect people who loved and followed God, we now had satan who tricked everyone (and still does today).

    God saw that, and He knew that only an intervention could possibly save mankind and get things back on track the way God always wanted them to go. He is still working on that plan, by the way, but through His grace and His mercy, He stays his hand of retribution until all the evil that can possibly be done by satan has been.
    Only then will His retribution be meted out on satan and his followers, who will be locked away forever, and will suffer the wrath of God forever.

    Then at last, God will recreate both a new Heaven and a new Earth: free of all taint of sin. And things will finally be as God always intended that they be.

    The reference to the natives refers to those who were tricked by satan who planned to overthrow God Himself and rule over this Earth and Heaven, and to those who are still subject to satan and his influences today.

    P.S. By God's grace, my own ancestors on my paternal grandmother's side come from Aarhus, Denmark, and they were Christians.
    Some of her family went on to become missionaries who served in 3 different countries, teaching and baptizing, while others were Christian ministers and Conference speakers.
    I have Christians on both sides of my family. On my father's grandfather's side the Christians go all the way back for more than 12 generations. And on my mother's side of the family I can trace back Christian ancestors who included one of the Pilgrims who sailed to Plymouth Rock.
    So yes, by the grace of God, I have huge shoes to fill.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    But it does not include children, infants, mentally handicapped etc. who are not capable of understanding.
     
  20. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    That's referred to in other Scripture then ?

    Remember where it says most children /babies/ are unclean ?
     
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