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What does the data support?

randman

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1. Fossil record: stasis and sudden appearance.

2. Recapitulation not being true, which is one of the reasons I initially beleived in evolution.

3. Abiogenesis, the idea that life can spontaneously generate from non-living matter. I consider this wholly unscientific, and worse illogical. I know the evolutionists state their theory isn't dependant upon it, but it is, at least non-theistic evolution. If God started the ball rolling, then i think one has to consider He may have intervened elsewhere, either special creation of all major types of animals, or animating all of evolution with divince force and direction, or selective intervention, or a combination of the above. I think a combination is the right answer, but I am not sure of how it happened.

4. The religous ideological approach of evolutionists has convinced me not to trust their objectivity.

5. I think carbon-dating for coal is a problem. Why is there any carbon left to show up on the tests?

6. Polystrate fossilized trees.

These are starters.

Good enough.
 
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It is bed-time, so I am only going to pick a couple and start with them. I'm not going to do the whole thing, nor am I going to complete the arguments I do start tonight. Besides, I'm sure the others would like to take a jab or two.

Originally posted by randman
1. Fossil record: stasis and sudden appearance.

Is this all there is to the fossil record? What should we expect from the fossil record, given what we know about how fossils form, and what evolution predicts? Are some long periods of stasis expected? Why or why not? What does "sudden appearance" mean? Does it mean that there were no primates before humans and chimps, that there were no anthropoid primates before humans and chimps, or that some novel features appear suddenly, while organisms themselves do not appear suddenly, but are preceded by similar organisms?

2. Recapitulation not being true, which is one of the reasons I initially beleived in evolution.

So, basically, you had poor evidence for evolution when you chose to accept it. That's fine. Its good, as a matter of fact. But that should have no bearing on weather you look at the rest of the evidence.

Recapitulation itself has always been defunct, since even before it was proposed, but developmental embryology still yields modest evolutionary evidence.

3. Abiogenesis, the idea that life can spontaneously generate from non-living matter. I consider this wholly unscientific, and worse illogical.

We were discussing data, not unfounded opinion or your version of logic. If it abiogenesis is unscientific or illogical, then please give us the data (or the logic) that make it so... If this is to be a real discussion of the "Data that does not support evolution", shouldn't you at least give us the data?


4. The religous ideological approach of evolutionists has convinced me not to trust their objectivity.

1) I wish you had phrased this "The religious ideolgoical approach that I PERCEIVE in evolutionists..."
2) Scientists are not objective. The purpose of science is to minimize the intrusion of bias on to the theory through rigorous documentation and peer review. Show us how this process has failed in only this particular field of science.
3) I suppose you reject creationism all the more strongly, then?


5. I think carbon-dating for coal is a problem. Why is there any carbon left to show up on the tests?

Contamination in situ, probably as the result of U-Th series decay, but possibly by other means.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&selm=3CC5FAD8.5070605@u.washington.edu


6. Polystrate fossilized trees.

What about them? Have you even read the Polystrate tree fossil FAQ at TalkOrigins?
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/polystrate/trees.html

Specifically, what is your complaint, and how does it relate to evolution? How do the polystrate tree fossils "not support" evolution? At most, they are only even conjectured to support a global flood - apart from causing extinction of humans (even those 8 that survived), a global flood does nothing to disconfirm evolution - it only serves to strengthen certain claims that a literal reading of parts of genesis is reliable.

These are starters.

Good enough.

I predict that you are going to be digging a little bit deeper in the creationist bag of tricks to have any hope of defending your position.
 
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seebs

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To be fair, one famous geologist, when abandoning his belief that there was geological evidence for the Flood, merely said that the evidence was incompatible with the Flood, and proposed no alternative explanation - he just knew that the data didn't support his hypothesis.
 
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Originally posted by LiveFreeOrDie
Please read my original post carefully. I didn't ask for data in conflict with evolution. I asked:



Would you care to try to answer again?

Sorry, I asked about WHICH data he believed "didn't support evolution."... I guess he ignored your question because mine seemed easier. In any case... If you would like, I can move my part of this to another thread....
 
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Originally posted by seebs
To be fair, one famous geologist, when abandoning his belief that there was geological evidence for the Flood, merely said that the evidence was incompatible with the Flood, and proposed no alternative explanation - he just knew that the data didn't support his hypothesis.

I would accept "I don't know" as a valid answer. Somehow I don't think that's what randman believes, though...
 
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Originally posted by Jerry Smith
Sorry, I asked about WHICH data he believed "didn't support evolution."...

Well, the last time I asked this question we got exactly zero from the creationists in response. Maybe if we peel each of randman's objections off into its own thread...
 
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Originally posted by randman
1. Fossil record: stasis and sudden appearance.

Actually, this is what is expected from the action of evolution in real populations. Stasis and sudden appeareance are the results of population-level dynamics being sampled by the fossil record.

2. Recapitulation not being true, which is one of the reasons I initially beleived in evolution.

Strict recapitulation has been known to be wrong for over a hundred years. Similarities in embryology do exist and are evidence for common descent and the history of evolution.

3. Abiogenesis...

Abiogenesis is a separate part of science. Complaints about abiogenesis no more affect evolution than complaints about gravity.

4. The religous ideological approach of evolutionists has convinced me not to trust their objectivity.

Uhh, can you point to such an approach in current science education?

5. I think carbon-dating...
6. Polystrate fossilized trees.

Again, not pertinant to a discussion on evolution.
 
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randman

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Basically, I don't need to prove creationism to not accept evolution. I rejected evolution, not because of creationism, but simply because I saw the evolutionists had overstated their case, and most crucially, the fossil evidence does not document evolution to having occurred.

As far as what is the right model to explain it all, I really don't know. It is an interesting subject, but I can't say for sure.
 
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Originally posted by randman
Basically, I don't need to prove creationism to not accept evolution. I rejected evolution, not because of creationism, but simply because I saw the evolutionists had overstated their case, and most crucially, the fossil evidence does not document evolution to having occurred.

As far as what is the right model to explain it all, I really don't know. It is an interesting subject, but I can't say for sure.

Randman,

I hope you will be more careful with your arguments then. I have seen you use the "truth" of creation or Genesis to disprove Evolution. Such tactics can not be reconciled with the opinion that you don't need to use creationism to disprove evolution.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by theyre here

What does the fossile record point to then?

Not all items of data point to anything. Sometimes, we don't have enough for a theory.

This isn't one of those times... But still, "what theory do you have" is not really always an appropriate angle of defense; after all, sometimes, it's enough to know that the current theory is wrong, and it's time to go looking again.
 
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