what does the commandment - 'thou shalt not kill' mean?

[MorkandMindy]

what does the commandment - 'thou shalt not kill' actually mean?

 

[abysmul]

what does the commandment - 'thou shalt not kill' actually mean?

The translation I use most often doesn't have that commandment. It's more like: You shall not murder.

 

[MorkandMindy]

The translation I use most often doesn't have that commandment. It's more like: You shall not murder.

How would you define the term 'murder'?

 

[abysmul]

It's not my definition that matters. My understanding is that there were different words in Hebrew for intentional and unintentional killing, and that it really is more like: "Do not put anyone to death without cause."

You have to take everything into context, but on the whole I think most reasonable people know what murder is.

Why do you ask? Are you non-Christian looking for an argument or are you a seeker of faith attempting to better understand scripture? Or something else?

 

[MorkandMindy]

I guess I really should ask if anyone has a reason why the commandment should be translated as 'You shall not murder' instead of 'you shall not kill'?

 

[abysmul]

Well there's plenty of historical and linguistic support for the murder vs kill translation. Sadly I'm a work (shhhh) and don't have my books by my side, but a quick Google search, I'm sure, will get you some good translation descriptions.

Good luck!

 

[MorkandMindy]

It's not my definition that matters. My understanding is that there were different words in Hebrew for intentional and unintentional killing, and that it really is more like: "Do not put anyone to death without cause."

You have to take everything into context, but on the whole I think most reasonable people know what murder is.

Why do you ask? Are you non-Christian looking for an argument or are you a seeker of faith attempting to better understand scripture? Or something else?

Thanks, my reply crossed with yours,

I hadn't thought of the distinction in terms of unintentional and intentional killing.

That clarifies the meaning of the commandment.

 

[MorkandMindy]

I asked because there is a big difference of opinion between most Protestant Christians here and most Protestant Christians in the US

on whether Christians should support starting wars such as the invasion of Iraq or generally oppose wars unless in self defense.


And the understanding of that commandment would affect the way people viewed G W Bush's war starting tendencies, which boosted his popularity ratings a lot in the US.

whereas over here in this mainly agnostic nation the attitude to invading Iraq was consistently over a number of years, 30% in favor vs 70% against.

This appears to indicate that Christians are more inclined to favor war than agnostics and atheists,

 

[MorkandMindy]

so I was puzzled about how they dealt with the commandment 'thou shalt not kill'

and the answer appears to be that it doesn't relate to judicial executions or decisions to go to war, but only to an individual's desire to bump off someone else as in murder.

so you've cleared that up.

Many thanks, I guess the same goes for the Christmas phrase 'Peace on Earth...'

 

[MorkandMindy]

Well there's plenty of historical and linguistic support for the murder vs kill translation. Sadly I'm a work (shhhh) and don't have my books by my side, but a quick Google search, I'm sure, will get you some good translation descriptions.

Good luck!

Oh wow, I don't get that level of help anywhere else

I think it is important because of the amount of wars going on right now.

I look forward to your response,

cheers M of M&M

 

[abysmul]

couple quick internet cut-n-pastes for you:

(I am far from a Bible scholar)

This could relate to soldiers/war:

In the New Testament, Jesus marveled when a Roman centurion (an officer in charge of one hundred soldiers) approached Him. The centurion’s response to Jesus indicated his clear understanding of authority, as well as his faith in Jesus (Matthew 8:5-13). Jesus did not denounce his career. Many centurions mentioned in the New Testament are praised as Christians, God-fearers, and men of good character (Matthew 8:5; 27:54; Mark 15:39-45; Luke 7:2; 23:47; Acts 10:1; 21:32; 28:16).

On kill or murder:

One thing you have to love about atheists is their extreme appreciation for the King James Version (KJV) translation. The KJV was translated in the early 17th century using an archaic form of modern English. In the last 400 years, the English language has changed significantly. Unfortunately, the vast majority of those who read the KJV (both believers and unbelievers) are unqualified to know what the text means in many instances because of word meaning changes. In attempting to demonstrate the contradiction of God's commands to Israel and the sixth commandment, atheist cite the KJV translation, "Thou shalt not kill."


However, like English, Hebrew, the language in which most of the Old Testament was written, uses different words for intentional vs. unintentional killing. The verse translated "Thou shalt not kill" in the KJV translation, is translated "You shall not murder"2 in modern translations - because these translations represents the real meaning of the Hebrew text. The Bible in Basic English translates the phrase, "Do not put anyone to death without cause."2 The Hebrew word used here is ratsach,3 which nearly always refers to intentional killing without cause (unless indicated otherwise by context). Hebrew law recognized accidental killing as not punishable. In fact, specific cities were designated as "cities of refuge," so that an unintentional killer could flee to escape retribution.4 The Hebrew word for "kill" in this instance is not ratsach, but nakah, which can refer to either premeditated or unintentional killing, depending upon context.5 Other Hebrew words also can refer to killing.6-8 The punishment for murder was the death sentence.9 However, to be convicted, there needed to be at least two eyewitnesses.10 The Bible also prescribes that people have a right to defend themselves against attack and use deadly force if necessary.11

Just offering something to think about/read. Again, I'm no scholar, but I study when I can and try to keep my mind open and my heart open to the Holy Spirit to guide me in the right direction.

 

[MorkandMindy]

I guess the first one indicates that Christianity is not against soldiers and therefore war.

Back then the Roman Army was largely paid from the loot gained through conquest, and commanded to conquer to gain territory to enhance the reputation of the commander and of the Emperor.

Modern day war is to gain oil and does wonders usually for the popularity of the President, so I guess that's entirely within the same general area of approval.

 

[abysmul]

I guess the first one indicates that Christianity is not against soldiers and therefore war.

Back then the Roman Army was largely paid from the loot gained through conquest, and commanded to conquer to gain territory to enhance the reputation of the commander and of the Emperor.

Modern day war is to gain oil and does wonders usually for the popularity of the President, so I guess that's entirely within the same general area of approval.

Be careful though, don't confuse the Roman Army with Christianity. Christ had nothing to do the army, he was dealing with individuals. Christians, occupation not withstanding, are subject to the will of and our relationship with Christ. We are to be Christlike and follow him, there have been countless Christians over the centuries that have decided not to serve in the military and even to reject orders based on their faith. In the end, that's the individual's decision and they will have to work out the details with God.

 

[maizer]

so I was puzzled about how they dealt with the commandment 'thou shalt not kill'

and the answer appears to be that it doesn't relate to judicial executions or decisions to go to war, but only to an individual's desire to bump off someone else as in murder.

so you've cleared that up.

Many thanks, I guess the same goes for the Christmas phrase 'Peace on Earth...'

Uh, I honestly doubt that commandment had any effect on anyone's decision about wars, but perhaps you know more about Christians than I do.

My parents traveled a lot when I was young, and I spent a lot of time in South Korea. It is exactly the type of war the people you mentioned would be dead set against. But whatever the horrible cost was paid, I do know 50 million people live in freedom and relative prosperity compared to the literally millions in North Korea starving to death, being tortured to death, with no hope in site.

I don't know what you are trying to say, but I think we are better off reserving judgement on these wars until at least a generation has passed, and from the Iraqi's or Afghans themselves.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Be careful though, don't confuse the Roman Army with Christianity. Christ had nothing to do the army, he was dealing with individuals. Christians, occupation not withstanding, are subject to the will of and our relationship with Christ. We are to be Christlike and follow him, there have been countless Christians over the centuries that have decided not to serve in the military and even to reject orders based on their faith. In the end, that's the individual's decision and they will have to work out the details with God.

Thanks for your responses so far but I'm lost on this one.


Does God favor going to war or not? I would hope a book as big as the Bible would answer that question.


If it depends on something about the war then what does it depend on?

 

[abysmul]

Thanks for your responses so far but I'm lost on this one.


Does God favor going to war or not? I would hope a book as big as the Bible would answer that question.


If it depends on something about the war then what does it depend on?

If you want a black and white answer I don't think you'll get it. In the past God directed the Israelites in war. That's not the same as saying God condones all war.


Here's a couple snippets on war (relating to God and the Bible), snapped from a page or two on the web:

Many people make the mistake of reading what the Bible says in Exodus 20:13, “You shall not kill,” and then seeking to apply this command to war. However, the Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice; murder.” God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12, 15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm to the innocent is by going to war.

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions would have been killed? If the American Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African-Americans have had to suffer as slaves?

War is a terrible thing. Some wars are more “just” than others, but war is always the result of sin (Romans 3:10-18). At the same time, Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “There is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.” In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to conflicts, and praying for a minimum of casualties among civilians on both sides (Philippians 4:6-7).

 

[MorkandMindy]

I'm afraid I can't really get any kind of rules or logic or guidelines or anything out of this apart from the last line about praying for a minimum of casualties among civilians.

I'm not sure that one is much use either. Did anyone pray before Hiroshima or Nagasaki and note the effect that had on civilian casualties? Most of the casualties died painfully over the following hours or days.

In the American War in Vietnam there were around 3 million civilians killed which may sound like a lot, but just over a million enemy servicemen were killed, so maybe that makes it OK, plus we got the oil in the end.

I guess this leads on to another question - how to know if a war is more just than not having a war when all the media is in full on lie mode?

 

[drich0150]

How would you define the term 'murder'?

The bible shows it to be an unsanctioned taking of another human life.

 

[abysmul]

I'm afraid I can't really get any kind of rules or logic or guidelines or anything out of this apart from the last line about praying for a minimum of casualties among civilians.

I'm not sure that one is much use either. Did anyone pray before Hiroshima or Nagasaki and note the effect that had on civilian casualties? Most of the casualties died painfully over the following hours or days.

In the American War in Vietnam there were around 3 million civilians killed which may sound like a lot, but just over a million enemy servicemen were killed, so maybe that makes it OK, plus we got the oil in the end.

I guess this leads on to another question - how to know if a war is more just than not having a war when all the media is in full on lie mode?

Your examples and questions seem to focus on American military actions. You do realize that the US government is a representative republic, not a theocracy?

Did anyone pray before the atomic bombings in Japan? Even a casual student of history would have read that yes, many individuals indeed prayed. War for oil in Vietnam? That's interesting and telling as well.

I encourage you to perhaps expand your study of history and possibly pick up modern translation of the Bible if you are honestly interested. I'll bow out of your thread for now, as I'm getting the vibe you are trying to obfuscate your real purpose here.

I wish you luck.

God bless.

 

[maizer]

I'm afraid I can't really get any kind of rules or logic or guidelines or anything out of this apart from the last line about praying for a minimum of casualties among civilians.

I'm not sure that one is much use either. Did anyone pray before Hiroshima or Nagasaki and note the effect that had on civilian casualties? Most of the casualties died painfully over the following hours or days.

In the American War in Vietnam there were around 3 million civilians killed which may sound like a lot, but just over a million enemy servicemen were killed, so maybe that makes it OK, plus we got the oil in the end.

I guess this leads on to another question - how to know if a war is more just than not having a war when all the media is in full on lie mode?

If all due respect, it looks like you don't trust Christians, the government, AND the media. Which I can't blame you for, to be honest.

Even WW2 I think had a LOT of people against it. If it weren't for Pearl Harbor, I wonder if America would have ever gotten involved, even if Britain had been invaded and the Soviet Union fallen. And we only found out about the holocaust AFTER it all ended.