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What does Scripture Mean About Perfection?

pescador

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1 John 1:8King James Version (KJV)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


Teaching that we can live sinless is a lie from Satan.

For the 10,000th time: The first part of 1 John is written to non-Christians, those outside the faith. 1 John 1:3: "What we have seen and heard we announce to you too, so that you may have fellowship with us (and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ)." You don't write that to Christians who already have heard the gospel and have fellowship with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
 
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JacksBratt

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But what about the occasions when you do sin?


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HEY.... Wait.... what???? "the occasions when you do sin"?

How on earth is there going to be an "occasion when you do sin" if you are no longer sinning?


A better question is "Ya.... what about all those occasions that we do sin? Even when we are Christians. Even when we have eternal life. Even when we are baptized. Even when we are called "children of God"
and we sin.... what then?

Because, it happens every single day.
 
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JacksBratt

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No. You skipped over the highlighed words within that post. It says who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:10).



No, Your not reading it right. Romans 8 says,

12 "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:12-13).

This is said to the reader who is a believer. It says if you live after the flesh, ye shall die. Seeing all men die whether they live after the flesh or not, this is obviously talking about "spiritual death."



But what about the occasions when you do sin? Are you walking after the Spirit or after the flesh?



You cannot walk after the flesh and also walk after the Spirit. It is either one or the other.


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What this verse is saying is... when we are Christians, there is no condemnation ahead of us. We have eternal life and no condemnation....If we are walking a and living a life with Jesus way in mind. When we live with God's ways as our goal and do not live for the flesh.

It does not say there is no condemnation for those who don't sin.
 
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JacksBratt

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Yes, I am not denying Christians cannot sin. But John also tells us to do what? To: "sin not." (1 John 2:1).


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OK, you can strive for a day when you do not sin anymore. Actually, all Christians should have that as a goal.

I just have a more realistic outlook. I said and I will say it again... no human can ever attain a point in their life where they cease sinning.

Argue all you want but be realistic and honest with yourself. Our goal is to be like Christ, while He knows and we know it is impossible. Even still.............we are His and we have salvation, we have eternal life.
 
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JacksBratt

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Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,
we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for it all by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.


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I posted the scripture as it is written in the KJV..... I read all different translations however the KJV is pretty clear here....

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
 
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Peter J Barban

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I skipped a lot of this thread, so pardon me if this has been answered.

Is there anyone who teaches sinless perfection living a life of constant sinless perfection? Are any such disciples of living a live sinless perfection?

I want to see the long-term results before I take a bite of your apple.
 
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Dave-W

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So this command applied to everyone there at Pentecost.
Yes - those to whom Peter had just preached.

And when I have led people to the Lord, I told them to get baptized as well. No difference.
 
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Dave-W

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Balaam also had a choice to do the right thing. It says greed was his error and it was not in him being exclusively a pagan.
Yes Baalam had a choice.
But he was doomed to hell either way.

The ONLY way he could change that destiny would have been to formally convert to Judaism, thereby joining into the Mosaic Covenant, and join the company of Israel.
Why would God care about what a pagan says? Their words have no power to God.
God cared because Baalam's words affected HIS people. Why did Og hire him in the first place? Because Baalam had demonic power in his words to curse.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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I posted the scripture as it is written in the KJV..... I read all different translations however the KJV is pretty clear here....

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I believe the KJV is perfect and divine;
In fact, it is my final Word of authority.

But read 1 John 1:8 from the perspective as if you did not believe sin exists and the verse is clear. For example: Christian Scientists believe sin is an illusion and is not real. So 1 John 1:8 is a warning for them not to believe that way. It is also a warning to those think future sin is forgiven them because they have a belief on Jesus. 1 John 1:9 gives us the proper solution to deal with sin and being forgiven.

For you cannot have 1 John 2:4 be true and your wrong interpretation on 1 John 1:8 be true because 1 John 2:4 says he that says he knows Him and does not keep His Commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.


...
 
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I skipped a lot of this thread, so pardon me if this has been answered.

Is there anyone who teaches sinless perfection living a life of constant sinless perfection? Are any such disciples of living a live sinless perfection?

I want to see the long-term results before I take a bite of your apple.

If you lived during Noah's time, what would make you believe his message? He was a preacher of righteousness and there was no major floods destroying people as far as we know before Genesis 7. In other words, faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God.


...
 
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OK, you can strive for a day when you do not sin anymore. Actually, all Christians should have that as a goal.

I just have a more realistic outlook. I said and I will say it again... no human can ever attain a point in their life where they cease sinning.

Argue all you want but be realistic and honest with yourself. Our goal is to be like Christ, while He knows and we know it is impossible. Even still.............we are His and we have salvation, we have eternal life.

Good thing your words are not the Word of God or we would be in trouble. So let me get this straight. You don't believe you can retreat to a forest and camp out for a week and just read your Bible and pray the whole time? Did you bother to prayerfully consider the verses I posted in the OP?


...
 
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What this verse is saying is... when we are Christians, there is no condemnation ahead of us. We have eternal life and no condemnation....If we are walking a and living a life with Jesus way in mind. When we live with God's ways as our goal and do not live for the flesh.

It does not say there is no condemnation for those who don't sin.

What do you think walking after the flesh means?

It means one is sinning.
For can you honestly say that the moment you sin that you are also walking after the Spirit?


...
 
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HEY.... Wait.... what???? "the occasions when you do sin"?

How on earth is there going to be an "occasion when you do sin" if you are no longer sinning?


A better question is "Ya.... what about all those occasions that we do sin? Even when we are Christians. Even when we have eternal life. Even when we are baptized. Even when we are called "children of God"
and we sin.... what then?

Because, it happens every single day.

Sin is repented of. A believer generally walks uprightly most days of his existence. If not, he is being controlled by a different master. Jesus says we will know a good tree by it's fruit.


..
 
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OK, you can strive for a day when you do not sin anymore. Actually, all Christians should have that as a goal.

I just have a more realistic outlook. I said and I will say it again... no human can ever attain a point in their life where they cease sinning.

Argue all you want but be realistic and honest with yourself. Our goal is to be like Christ, while He knows and we know it is impossible. Even still.............we are His and we have salvation, we have eternal life.

There are many days I don't sin those types of sins that lead unto spiritual death. Are you saying this is not normal for you?

Pray to Jesus to help you overcome your sin. Stop sinning. The Lord God can help you. For nothing with God is impossible.


...
 
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OK, you can strive for a day when you do not sin anymore. Actually, all Christians should have that as a goal.

I just have a more realistic outlook. I said and I will say it again... no human can ever attain a point in their life where they cease sinning.

Argue all you want but be realistic and honest with yourself. Our goal is to be like Christ, while He knows and we know it is impossible. Even still.............we are His and we have salvation, we have eternal life.

How to stop sinning | HowToStopSinning.com


...
 
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ToBeLoved

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But read 1 John 1:8 from the perspective as if you did not believe sin exists and the verse is clear. For example: Christian Scientists believe sin is an illusion and is not real. So 1 John 1:8 is a warning for them not to believe that way. It is also a warning to those think future sin is forgiven them because they have a belief on Jesus. 1 John 1:9 gives us the proper solution to deal with sin and being forgiven....
Please show who the Christian scientists where who lived in Jesus day, 2,000 years ago that you speak of
 
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