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What does "quiverfull" mean to you?

What does quiverfull mean to you?

  • Everybody should do all they can (morally and legally) to have as many children as possible

  • Every Christian on the planet should do all they can to have as many children as possible

  • I personally should do (am doing) all I can to have as many children as possible

  • All birth control is wrong/sinful

  • All artificial birth control is wrong/sinful

  • All hormonal birth control is wrong/sinful

  • Everybody should want to have many children, but there are exceptions for health, finances, etc

  • Christians should want to have many children, but there are exceptions due to health, finances, etc

  • I want to have as many children as my health, finances, and particular circumstances permit

  • I have a big family


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oliveplants

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I really am quite calm, just passionate about God's Word.
I answered 2,3,4. and yourself?
Perhaps this is not the forum for me. I assumed lively discussions might be encouraged, after all, thats how iron sharpens iron.
Please forgive me if I offended you. I was not speaking to you personally but to Christians as a whole. Does everyone out there think we are doing a great job in affecting our culture for the glory of Christ Jesus?
(I first posted this with the wrong message, still trying to find my way around)
Thanks.
I voted 4,8,9 (I think) - hormonal BC is wrong, I think Christians should want to have children, and I personally do.

Yeah, lively discussions do come up. But CF has some interesting 'rules' and the longer you are here the more you can get away with, but in general we try to walk softly because there is such a wide variety of people/belief systems on this site. And in QF we've been under bombardment from certian members, so we might be a bit touchy just now. But I should think encouragement to stand on the truth we have will be quite welcome.

Sorry if we jumped on you a little; I need to calm down myself sometimes.
 
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ACADEMIC

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Okay, so "be fruitful and multiply was a blessing or command from God to the First Adam.

More interesting is to study out the Second Adam's, Jesus's, ideas about "be fruitful" and "multiply."

He had in mind spiritual fruitfulness and multiplying the kingdom of God by planting the seed of His message around the world among already born populations, regarding which His foremost command is not to "stay and have babies" but to go into all the world and preach the gospel (this is obviously not to say it is wrong to have children).

I frankly believe that QF theology is a Satanic deception perpretrated foremost against women (recall Eve was the one Satan initially attacked), which Satan has used to divert Christians from Christ's ideas of frutiful and multiply. QF has just enough truth in it to be palatable to some.

Of course, the ready answer of QFers to this is that QF is fulfilling the Great Commission, but the convolution of that argument only exhibits my point about the convolution of QF theology.
 
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Okay, so "be fruitful and multiply was a blessing or command from God to the First Adam.

More interesting is to study out the Second Adam's, Jesus's, ideas about "be fruitful" and "multiply."

He had in mind spiritual fruitfulness and multiplying the kingdom of God by planting the seed of His message around the world among already born populations, regarding which His foremost command is not to "stay and have babies" but to go into all the world and preach the gospel (this is obviously not to say it is wrong to have children).

I frankly believe that QF theology is a Satanic deception perpretrated foremost against women (recall Eve was the one Satan initially attacked), which Satan has used to divert Christians from Christ's ideas of frutiful and multiply. QF has just enough truth in it to be palatable to some.

Of course, the ready answer of QFers to this is that QF is fulfilling the Great Commission, but the convolution of that argument only exhibits my point about the convolution of QF theology.
Can you supprt your idea from the Scriptures that QF doctrine (or be fruitful and miulitply ) no longer applies to the chosen people of God as a means of dominion taking?
How do you come to the idea that this might be a Satanic deception since God commanded this in the OT? Scripture is progressive revelation and, to my knowledge, there is no where in Scripture that God later revokes this commandment.
 
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Katakalupto

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Okay, so "be fruitful and multiply was a blessing or command from God to the First Adam.

More interesting is to study out the Second Adam's, Jesus's, ideas about "be fruitful" and "multiply."

He had in mind spiritual fruitfulness and multiplying the kingdom of God by planting the seed of His message around the world among already born populations, regarding which His foremost command is not to "stay and have babies" but to go into all the world and preach the gospel (this is obviously not to say it is wrong to have children).

I frankly believe that QF theology is a Satanic deception perpretrated foremost against women (recall Eve was the one Satan initially attacked), which Satan has used to divert Christians from Christ's ideas of frutiful and multiply. QF has just enough truth in it to be palatable to some.

Of course, the ready answer of QFers to this is that QF is fulfilling the Great Commission, but the convolution of that argument only exhibits my point about the convolution of QF theology.


Having children does not hinder fulfillment of the Great Commission.

Academic if you can show us where the Bible says it is alright for a woman to control her fertility then do so. Everything I read in the Bible concerning women shows me that a woman is to be under God's authority as well as her husband's. No where have I seen where a woman taking charge of the situation resulted in a good, or fruitful, result.

You don't have to be QF. No one here is asking you to be. Could you please leave us alone and try and find fellowship with people (and they are plenty) that share your views, instead of trying to instigate trouble?

It saddens me that a grown man has nothing better to do with his time than to attack the religious beliefs of others. Especially when the beliefs in no way pertain to salvation.
 
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QF doctrine is a great bit more than simply Genesis 1:22; 9:7.

Is it not self-evident that Christians should heed foremost the Second Adam's ideas about "be fruitful" and "multiply"?
They are certainly not mutually exclusive!
 
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QF doctrine is a great bit more than simply Genesis 1:22; 9:7.

Is it not self-evident that Christians should heed foremost the Second Adam's ideas about "be fruitful" and "multiply"?
One more thing. Yes, the "be fruitful and multiply" doctrine is much more than the mandate given to Adam and Noah. It is also Deut 6:5-9. It is also the last words of the great patriarch Moses to the teach the things of the Lord to all descendants. The Lord says "it is not a vain thing you do, it is your life!" It is repeated in Psalm 78 and elsewhere (because we are a forgetful people)
 
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Katakalupto

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QF doctrine is a great bit more than simply Genesis 1:22; 9:7.

Is it not self-evident that Christians should heed foremost the Second Adam's ideas about "be fruitful" and "multiply"?

The Second Adam also said this "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for such is the kingdom of God." (Mark 10:14)

If I use birthcontrol to prevent myself from becoming pregnant, I am quite possibly forbidding a child to come unto Him.

How much more can I fulfill the Great Commission if I go out into the world taking my children with me as a witness that I choose not only salvation, but to follow my God's commandments?
 
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ACADEMIC

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Workinprogress, this grown man has seen some young and impressionable QFers in their early twenties talk very differenty 10 and 15 years later. I am also in proccess of writing a book on QF, so I do have an interest in the subject beyond your implied charge of my being an idle busybody.

About asking for Biblical instances where women used birth control and using the Bible's supposed silence on the issue as "proof" that it is sin to use it, that is called arguing from silence.

Argument from silence has famously been used by skeptics against the virgin birth of Christ. Paul, for example, does not mention the virgin birth, and skeptics therefore argue from his silence that he did not know of it. If this argument is used as an attempted proof of Paul's ignorance, it is incorrect, because ignorance is only one possible reason for Paul's silence; it's also possible that he did not think the virgin birth was important or relevant to his reasoning, or that he referred to it in texts that have now been lost or mutilated. However, the argument from silence is not incorrect if it is used to prove that Paul may have been ignorant.

Similarly, arguing from silence on the issue of contraception in the Bible proves nothing. Yet arguing from silence is typical of movements that have very sloppy theology at their base; they try to use silence as proof when it is not at all.

Arguing from silence can also become a very slippery slope. For example, the Bible gives no instance of a woman using a computer, but that does not stop many QF adherents from using them. This also shows radical inconsistency in applying the idea that if the Bible does not directly speak affirmitively of a thing, then that thing must be sin to use.

But the Bible may not be silent on showing a woman using birth control. From Song of Solomon 7:12:

Let us rise early and go to the vineyards;
Let us see whether the vine has budded
And its blossoms have opened,
And whether the pomegranates have bloomed.
There I will give you my love.

That the couple is going to have relations where the pomegranates have bloomed is very interesting.

Pomegranates were used as birth control in the ancient world. The entire fruit and its blossoms contain a phytosterol almost identical to progesterone, the homone used in birth control pills. When pomegranates are taken they act similarly.

In Egypt, archeologists have even found pills of ground pomegranate seeds.

Also, the ground pulp of pomegranate, when both smeared on to a man and inserted into a woman, rapidly produces lactic acid which is an exceptionally efficient spermicide.

As well, the scooped out hard shell of a pomengrante husk is mentioned in some ancient literature as having been used as a one-use diaphragm. Given that the scooped out shell carried remanants of the lactic acid producing pulp, this was probably quite effective.

Let me stress that there is nothing wrong with wanting and bearing many children, given that God has so called a couple that way. However, using QF theology as a basis for that, and being taken up into a "life call" based upon that theology, can be very problematic. This is because the theology itself is very problematic.

--------------------
 
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Workinprogress, this grown man has seen some young and impressionable QFers in their early twenties talk very differenty 10 and 15 years later. I am also in proccess of writing a book on QF, so I do have an interest in the subject beyond your implied charge of my being an idle busybody.

About asking for Biblical instances where women used birth control and using the Bible's supposed silence on the issue as "proof" that it is sin to use it, that is called arguing from silence.

Argument from silence has famously been used by skeptics against the virgin birth of Christ. Paul, for example, does not mention the virgin birth, and skeptics therefore argue from his silence that he did not know of it. If this argument is used as an attempted proof of Paul's ignorance, it is incorrect, because ignorance is only one possible reason for Paul's silence; it's also possible that he did not think the virgin birth was important or relevant to his reasoning, or that he referred to it in texts that have now been lost or mutilated. However, the argument from silence is not incorrect if it is used to prove that Paul may have been ignorant.

Similarly, arguing from silence on the issue of contraception in the Bible proves nothing. Yet arguing from silence is typical of movements that have very sloppy theology at their base; they try to use silence as proof when it is not at all.

Arguing from silence can also become a very slippery slope. For example, the Bible gives no instance of a woman using a computer, but that does not stop many QF adherents from using them. This also shows radical inconsistency in applying the idea that if the Bible does not directly speak affirmitively of a thing, then that thing must be sin to use.

But the Bible may not be silent on showing a woman using birth control. From Song of Solomon 7:12:

Let us rise early and go to the vineyards;
Let us see whether the vine has budded
And its blossoms have opened,
And whether the pomegranates have bloomed.
There I will give you my love.

That the couple is going to have relations where the pomegranates have bloomed is very interesting.

Pomegranates were used as birth control in the ancient world. The entire fruit and its blossoms contain a phytosterol almost identical to progesterone, the homone used in birth control pills. When pomegranates are taken they act similarly.

In Egypt, archeologist have even found pills of ground pomegranate seeds.

As well, the scooped out hard shell of a pomengrante husk is mentioned in some ancient literature as having been used as a diaphragm.

Also, the ground pulp of pomegranate, when both smeared on to a man and inserted into a woman, rapidly produces lactic acid which is as an exceptionally efficient spermicide.

Let me say that there is nothing at all wrong with wanting and bearing many children, if God has so called a couple that way. However, using QF theology as a basis for that can be very problematic because the theology is itself very problematic.
With all due respect, Academic, you didn't answer my request regarding proving from Scripture where the commandment to "be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth" has been revoked. Are you not yourself arguing from silence?! Perhaps you are the one on the slope of slipperiness.
While the history of pomegranetes in an interesting "straw man," it does not prove the use of birth-control in Scripture. Even if it was proven that it was used, that does not mean it is pleasing to God. As a scholar, I'm sure you know that scripture interprets scripture, thus an incident of something occuring in the Scriptures does not make it a desired practice for the children of God.
 
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Katakalupto

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Funny you read that the pomegranates have bloomed and assume they went there for birth control. I read it and assume they enjoyed the fragrance as much as I do.

I may be young, but that doesn't mean I am going to change my mind about my beliefs.

How old were you when you accepted Christ? Has it been 10-15 years? Do you still believe that He is your saviour?

Computers aren't mentioned at all in the Bible. Children however are. Therefore your argument holds no ground. The Bible speaks positively of children. No where does it mention that having them is to be avoided by any means.
 
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Katydid

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OK well, this has gone quite far from just stating what you believe QF is.

OK well here is my answer...

We believe that all BC is wrong. We do not use NFP or any other form of BC. We believe that the command to be fruitful and multiply still applies to us. I have never seen a Biblical instance where children were considered a burden to be avoided, only a blessing to be cherished.
 
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PegasusOnFire

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Abortion, and taking medications that cause them are some ways that people stop Him.


this is where you are somewhat misplaced, God has stopped both of these for different people I know. He allowed the person to go in for the abortion, but did not allow the child to be removed, as well as he allowed people to take the "morning after pill" and did not allow the child to die. God will over come all obsitcals if it is HIS will to do so.

Ah the blessing of free-will, we can make the choice and He can block it.


Disclaimer: no I do not support abortion or the morning after pill.
 
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ACADEMIC

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this is where you are somewhat misplaced, God has stopped both of these for different people I know. He allowed the person to go in for the abortion, but did not allow the child to be removed, as well as he allowed people to take the "morning after pill" and did not allow the child to die. God will over come all obsitcals if it is HIS will to do so.

Ah the blessing of free-will, we can make the choice and He can block it.


Disclaimer: no I do not support abortion or the morning after pill.
Exactly.

The very fundamental idea of God's sovereignty is that certain things He wills to utterly occur (or utterly NOT occur) are completely unstoppable. No human free-will or action can even slightly touch upon that.

All else that happens He allows because He allows it sovereignly.

Nothing happens without God allowing it to happen as an occurance within at least His permissive will, which He will work together for the good of those who love and Him and are called according to His purpose.

If God wants something to happen, or if He does not want something to happen, NOTHING WHATSOEVER can stop Him from making it happen or prevent Him from causing it to happen, period.

Although God's perfect will does not always occur, this is what it means for God to be sovereign in working His will. No human can so much as even slightly touch it.

Not that we humans, as Job, always understand His choices! :scratch: But our job is to repsond to Him in an internally godly manner no matter what happens. And that is another subject.

---------------------------
 
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Katydid

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Nothing happens without God allowing it to happen as an occurance within at least His permissive will, which He will work together for the good of those who love and Him and are called according to His purpose.

So basically, by this concept. Eliminating free will, I might add. If I was on birth control, you believe that I would still have all the children I do? OK so then how do you explain that the pill is 96% effective, yes 4% may get pregnant on it, but I don't know if that is God's will or science.

What I KNOW. God gave us free will. God gave us the ability to choose between right and wrong. So, the concept that he would usurp your free will is faulty.

Now, if someone is on the pill, and praying that God gives them a child, then perhaps, He will provide. But why on earth would they be using BC if they were truly open to having a child.

According to your idea, the Duggars would still have 16 children, even if they were on BC.

I don't believe that. I believe we have the option to decide between right and wrong. To decide what we want for our lives. Now, does that mean miracles don't happen, no. Of course occasionally a miracle may occur, a child may survive. I don't understand it, hence it is a miracle. But, for a majority, we choose our path.


Now, let's switch that around. How would you get pregnant unless it was God's will? If you are so sure that God can get you pregnant if he so chooses regardless of what you do to stop him, then WHY even bother with BC? Obviously you won't get pregnant unless God wants you to.
 
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