What does "quiverfull" mean to you?

[ACADEMIC]

AutumnDreamer:

Are you saying that asking for the basis of one's beliefs, which Scriptures, is a "loaded question"?

Are you clear about what a "loaded question" really is? See http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html

Don't you think you should quote my supposed sarcasm or offer an apology?

Are you saying that my motive for posting here is to simply inflict psycholigical damage as a troublemaker on to others (flaming) and not move a discussion forward, including perhaps persuading others to alternative Christian viewpoints? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_war

In this group, are you being what has been called a "mindguard"? See http://www.usna.edu/Users/polisci/purkitt/groupthink.ppt (see especially frames 1 through 8)

If, as you imply, this forum was created to be 100% conflict-free; that strict adherence to QF ideology is the criteria for use of this forum; that users may never have any belief questioned; then don't you think there should be an approved written policy indicating this somewhere?

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[oliveplants]

Let me add that I think most respondents here so far, except for perhaps Assisi and Workinprogress who I am not yet sure about (hence the questions), are apparently identifying with a movement to which their actual beliefs do not really mesh. For example, simply wanting a big family and being against hormonal BC because of remote possibilites for failed implantation of embryos does not equate with being QF.

This is why I started this thread; to find out what QF means to those of us here on CF. Maybe the mods can take the results of the poll and make a sticky, so everyone roaming the forums can see what this area is about and know whether or not they belong here.

 

[AutumnDreamer]

AutumnDreamer:

Are you saying that asking for the basis of one's beliefs, which Scriptures, is a "loaded question"?

Are you clear about what a "loaded question" really is? See http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html

Don't you think you should quote my supposed sarcasm or offer an apology?

Are you saying that my motive for posting here is to simply inflict psycholigical damage as a troublemaker on to others (flaming) and not move a discussion forward, including perhaps persuading others to alternative Christian viewpoints? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_war

In this group, are you being what has been called a "mindguard"? See http://www.usna.edu/Users/polisci/purkitt/groupthink.ppt (see especially frames 1 through 8)

If, as you imply, this forum was created to be 100% conflict-free; that strict adherence to QF ideology is the criteria for use of this forum; that users may never have any belief questioned; then don't you think there should be an approved written policy indicating this somewhere?

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I may cross-examine her basis or I may not, depending upon what is that basis. Who is afraid of cross examination if their position on something is truly solid? I have seen many women have their consciences bound by false ideas of what certain Scriptures are saying. Who would wish consciences to remain falsely bound?

As I said this is not a debate forum, the women that come to this forum are here to discuss, support and encourage those who are led to live a quiverfull life. Women do not come here to be cross-examined about their beliefs. I am not the only one who feels this from your posts

Are you quiverfull? Do you have honest questions for those who are? Or are you only here to convince us we're wrong?

I am letting you know, that I will not answer any question from you that I feel is being asked in a debate manner, I urge the other ladies also do not feel you need to defend your beliefs, this forum was created so that could avoid having to do that. I am asking you acedemic that if you have questions you would like to ask to people who are quiverfull, start another topic where only those who wish to defend/debate these beliefs will be responding.

 

[ACADEMIC]

This is why I started this thread; to find out what QF means to those of us here on CF. Maybe the mods can take the results of the poll and make a sticky, so everyone roaming the forums can see what this area is about and know whether or not they belong here.

I would suggest a simple forum name change to "Large Families" might do the trick.

 

[oliveplants]

I would suggest a simple forum name change to "Large Families" might do the trick.

Yeah, but it would have to be "People who have, want, or are open to the possibility of Large Families" and that might be a little too long.

 

[Katakalupto]

I would suggest a simple forum name change to "Large Families" might do the trick.

That would be highly inaccurate. Especially if one truly has quiverfull beliefs. Many women in the Bible were quiverfull, yet only had one or two children. If you will look back on the Suggest New Forums page, I requested this forum so that people who don't believe in using birth control regardless of family size would have somewhere to talk.

I believe quiverfull, yet only have one child. So by your line of reason, I would no longer be welcome here.

 

[ACADEMIC]

So far only one person has voted "All birth control is wrong/sinful."

 

[Linnis]

We hope to have as many children as my health and our finances make possible. If that's one so be it, if that's 4+ so be it.

I have gotten some strange looks but I think it would be so cool to have 4-5 kids, a house with a yard, DH works while I take care of the kids, do the stuff around the house. Have a large garden, not only for food but to teach the kids with....yep, many strange looks but if we can afford it, I'd love it.

 

[Jehane]

As I've posted elsewhere we're quiverfull sorta by default. I fell pregnant on the pill with twins; I figure God made himself pretty plain about then & the rotten device always made me ill anyway so I was happy to never use them again. Despite no contraception we only got 2 more spread over 6 years; that's 5 altogether & although we are open to having more my age is now pretty much against us. Still, Sarah was 90...

 

[ACADEMIC]

As I've posted elsewhere we're quiverfull sorta by default. I fell pregnant on the pill with twins; I figure God made himself pretty plain about then & the rotten device always made me ill anyway so I was happy to never use them again. Despite no contraception we only got 2 more spread over 6 years; that's 5 altogether & although we are open to having more my age is now pretty much against us. Still, Sarah was 90...

WOW! Are you saying you had a 90 pound DD Jehane? :o



But seriously, let me talk about an issue and make a suggestion.

It seems to me that MOST people here are self-identifying as QF based upon only a surface understanding of the movement and its theology/philosophy. In my view, that is problematic.

View again the Wikipedia article on Quiverfull.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull

I along with others feel that it gives a quite accurate and fair overview of the movement.

Unless I am reading something wrongly here, or the expressed info here is incomplete, both admittedly possible, the expressed views of most people here simply do not agree with the mainstream of Quiverfull beliefs and practices. For a recent example, Linnis's comment that "we hope to have as many children as my health and our finances make possible" is very at odds with mainstream QF beliefs and practices.

In my view, this presents three options.

One, continue to self-identify as Quiverfull because you do adhere to the mainstream of its beliefs and practices.

Two, continue to self-identify as Quiverfull while NOT adhering to the bulk of its mainstream beliefs and practices, yet acting as a reformer within the movement. The benefit of this is that one can perhaps work to bring about a minimalist definition of what it means to be QF.

Three, cease indentifying as QF, since you are actually at general odds with the majority movement's core beliefs and practices. The benefits of this are that one may easily avoid being associated with the movement's potentially very problematic beliefs and practices.

In short I am asking, if you self-identify as QF, just exactly how QF are you given what QF really means as defined by its mainstream author's and adhrents?

Thoughts?

 

[oliveplants]

Hey, Academic, finally you get to your point! It's not a bad one, I'm just thinking what to do with it... (of course, it's not up to me anyway, since I didn't request the forum, don't moderate it, not sure who does)

Has wikipedia ever been wrong?
I don't think anyone in the 'mainstream QF movement' would describe themselves as cultish or useing 'groupspeak' as the article suggested.

Seems to me that for most people (not including you and my brother, who is very strict in his deffinitions) QF is a general enough term and a loose enough "movement" to allow for a wide variety of interpretation, and it doesn't offend me in the least that we all have our own way of putting QF-type ideas into practice. Do you really think this is that confusing to most people? I also subscribe to the "plus size women" forum; talk about generalizing! My MIL would be overweight as a size 12, and I would be unhealthily thin at that same size. SO we each log into the areas that apply to us more or less. Even with a membership as large as CF, if we divided up into such specific groups, there would be only 1 or 2 in each subforum.
Do you see why it's just easier to say QF?
I can see how that might be misleading to some, but without getting quite complicated, I don't see what else to do.

 

[jgonz]

I didn't know there was a full-fledged QF "movement". From what I understand it's a loose belief system of families who don't believe in using bc for whatever reasons.

DH and I used one variety or another of bc (but not hormonal. It messed up my system big time), but were open to as many children as the L-rd wanted us to have. He knew our hearts and overrode the bc every time (as we had asked Him to if He wanted us to have more children).

For my cousin and her DH, the Knew, without a Shadow of a doubt, that G-d did not want them using Any bc, for any reason. They trusted G-d, and in all the many years of their marriage had 4 children (she's gone through menopause now). I have to wonder if they'd been able to have Any children if they'd used bc, considering her health issues...

I personally believe that anyone who is following G-d's leading and is Open to as many children as G-d wants you to have is following a QF mindset to one degree or another.

(Disclaimer: I know I am not a spokesperson for QF since my views are different than many others.)

 

[oliveplants]

I personally believe that anyone who is following G-d's leading and is Open to as many children as G-d wants you to have is following a QF mindset to one degree or another.

That's it! (As far as I know, anyway.) And, as far as I know, that's what this forum is for. Good sum-up.

 

[shallowtentpegs]

What we must remember for all of faith and practice is that God's word is sufficient, even in the issue of child-bearing. The Holy Spirit guides us in all truth (His Word) but our flesh continues to war against the Spirit.
Therefore, if we feel that we are "being led" to do something contrary to the Word of God, we are sinning. What does God's Word say about children? That is the question.

 

[oliveplants]

What we must remember for all of faith and practice is that God's word is sufficient, even in the issue of child-bearing. The Holy Spirit guides us in all truth (His Word) but our flesh continues to war against the Spirit.
Therefore, if we feel that we are "being led" to do something contrary to the Word of God, we are sinning. What does God's Word say about children? That is the question.

True.

The Bible says children are a blessing, the heritage of the Lord. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them. There are stories about people (mostly women) longing for children, praying for them, and recieving them. There is the "be fruitful and multiply' command/blessing.

But there isn't a clear directive that all people everywhere should have as many children as possible. Nor is there a command to avoid all measures of birth control or family planning. SO these items are left to the individual conscience and calling (Jesus said some are eunochs for the Kingdom's sake). And thus, the debate.

DH and I have actually pondered the question of 'fruitful.' If we have a garden, or orchard, it is most fruitful when we space out the plants, prune the branches, etc. We don't simply throw as much seed into the ground as we can... Does this apply to childbearing? I don't know. A human life is of infinate more value than a fruit or vegetable, so you could take that in either direction...

Anywho, glad to see you on the forums! Make yourself at home.

 

[shallowtentpegs]

True.

The Bible says children are a blessing, the heritage of the Lord. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them. There are stories about people (mostly women) longing for children, praying for them, and recieving them. There is the "be fruitful and multiply' command/blessing.

But there isn't a clear directive that all people everywhere should have as many children as possible. Nor is there a command to avoid all measures of birth control or family planning. SO these items are left to the individual conscience and calling (Jesus said some are eunochs for the Kingdom's sake). And thus, the debate.

DH and I have actually pondered the question of 'fruitful.' If we have a garden, or orchard, it is most fruitful when we space out the plants, prune the branches, etc. We don't simply throw as much seed into the ground as we can... Does this apply to childbearing? I don't know. A human life is of infinate more value than a fruit or vegetable, so you could take that in either direction...

Anywho, glad to see you on the forums! Make yourself at home.

Nowhere in Scripture does God retract the commandment to be fruitful and fill the earth. Does He have to repeat His commandments every so often for them to be valid today?
We are called to be salt and light and to come out from the unclean thing, the practices of the world that displease God. Our wicked culture portrays children as a nusance and a finanicial burden. When God says to "be fruitful nd multiply and fill the earth" who do you suppose he was speaking to? Adam and Noah only? Of course not. He was speaking all their descendants, of which the chosen children of God are to be special recipients of his blessings. Our culture rejects blessings by using abortifactant methods disquised as "family planning" tools. We have swallowed another lie of the world that hates God and seeks to destroy His people.
We are to be completely and peculiarly different by embracing as many blessings as the Almighty has for us and we are to proclaim it on the rooftops rather than acquiesce to a position of relativism by saying "its not for everyone."
If Christians were pursuing this commandment as vigorously as Muslims, the fastest growing religion in the world, we would have great success in affecting the culture for Christ. Too aften we are content eating the scraps of the world and mingling a pagan worldview with our weak Biblical worldview.

 

[oliveplants]

Hey, STP, calm down - I'm on your side.

I didn't say "be fruitfull and multiply" was retracted. Some believe this is a command, others see it as a blessing (sort of like telling someone to "get well"). Some think this applies to all humans, others think only to Christians; some people believe they have to chose between this blessing and others (such as worldly wealth, or seeing many saved, or anything else). Others still argue that the world is full.

These various groups all think they are following the Word. So to say "do what the Bible says" doesn't completly cover the topic, and that's why we have to address what we think the BIble says to us, and be open to dialog so we can learn from each other and thus get closer to the intent and heart of God.

How do you answer the poll? (If I may ask)

 

[AutumnDreamer]

Nowhere in Scripture does God retract the commandment to be fruitful and fill the earth. Does He have to repeat His commandments every so often for them to be valid today?
We are called to be salt and light and to come out from the unclean thing, the practices of the world that displease God. Our wicked culture portrays children as a nusance and a finanicial burden. When God says to "be fruitful nd multiply and fill the earth" who do you suppose he was speaking to? Adam and Noah only? Of course not. He was speaking all their descendants, of which the chosen children of God are to be special recipients of his blessings. Our culture rejects blessings by using abortifactant methods disquised as "family planning" tools. We have swallowed another lie of the world that hates God and seeks to destroy His people.
We are to be completely and peculiarly different by embracing as many blessings as the Almighty has for us and we are to proclaim it on the rooftops rather than acquiesce to a position of relativism by saying "its not for everyone."
If Christians were pursuing this commandment as vigorously as Muslims, the fastest growing religion in the world, we would have great success in affecting the culture for Christ. Too aften we are content eating the scraps of the world and mingling a pagan worldview with our weak Biblical worldview.

First I would like to say that no God does not retract his command of "be fruitful and multiply" yet also He does not command that we continue to multiply for as long as we can, if a couple has even one child they are mulitplied.

Second I would like to say please be respectful of other people, this forum was created for those who feel God is in control of their family size, so the second part of your post is "preaching to the choir" so to speak, and actually borderline offensive. We need to remember that our convictions may not be the same convictions of others, it is something that God must speak to the individual, not us.

 

[shallowtentpegs]

That's it! (As far as I know, anyway.) And, as far as I know, that's what this forum is for. Good sum-up.

I really am quite calm, just passionate about God's Word.
I answered 2,3,4. and yourself?
Perhaps this is not the forum for me. I assumed lively discussions might be encouraged, after all, thats how iron sharpens iron.
Please forgive me if I offended you. I was not speaking to you personally but to Christians as a whole. Does everyone out there think we are doing a great job in affecting our culture for the glory of Christ Jesus?

 

[shallowtentpegs]

Hey, STP, calm down - I'm on your side.

I didn't say "be fruitfull and multiply" was retracted. Some believe this is a command, others see it as a blessing (sort of like telling someone to "get well"). Some think this applies to all humans, others think only to Christians; some people believe they have to chose between this blessing and others (such as worldly wealth, or seeing many saved, or anything else). Others still argue that the world is full.

These various groups all think they are following the Word. So to say "do what the Bible says" doesn't completly cover the topic, and that's why we have to address what we think the BIble says to us, and be open to dialog so we can learn from each other and thus get closer to the intent and heart of God.

How do you answer the poll? (If I may ask)

I really am quite calm, just passionate about God's Word.
I answered 2,3,4. and yourself?
Perhaps this is not the forum for me. I assumed lively discussions might be encouraged, after all, thats how iron sharpens iron.
Please forgive me if I offended you. I was not speaking to you personally but to Christians as a whole. Does everyone out there think we are doing a great job in affecting our culture for the glory of Christ Jesus?
(I first posted this with the wrong message, still trying to find my way around)