What does prayer do?

[Tom 1]

When things go your way, God gets the glory. When things do not go your way, God knows best. You can't loose Which then begs the question

What?

(unaddressed/unanswered), why is it, that 100% of the time, God never answers the call for amputees and people with Down's syndrome?

As you are making the argument, provide the proof. If you don't see that the argument is daft, I suppose I can't really help you with that.

 

[Tom 1]

You then need to demonstrate why what I'm saying is flawed, in line with the OP topic(s)?

As I said in an earlier post, I have no interest in engaging in silly arguments whose only relevance is to their own terms. I am however interested in discussing the topic in relation to the things that define it, which could be both useful and interesting, so if you have anything in that line...

 

[Tom 1]

Furthermore, I am staying directly on topic, within this OP. You, on the other hand, are not.

True - in an earlier post I said I think that the OP is pointless, and why, but offered another tack the original poster agreed to, that I am now following.

 

[Tom 1]

Now I know, you instead wish to dodge them, and I can only wonder why?

It's pretty basic - if your initial definitions are incomplete, faulty, whatever, then the argument itself has no relevance to anything other than itself.

 

[cvanwey]

It's pretty basic - if your initial definitions are incomplete, faulty, whatever, then the argument itself has no relevance to anything other than itself.

LOL!

 

[cvanwey]

True - in an earlier post I said I think that the OP is pointless, and why, but offered another tack the original poster agreed to, that I am now following.

It's 'pointless', if you adopt the notion that God is not a slot machine, and He never answered petitionary prayer. But you think He does answer some prayer. Hence, you must (either) account for why He always excludes people with Down's and amputees, (or) change your position, to be more in line with the ones whom state prayer is for thanking God, and having a relationship with God, and nothing more; and prayer is not to grant intercessory/petitionary requests.

 

[Tom 1]

LOL!

It really is remarkably simple.

My neighbour told me that he plants carrots in the area of his garden near to my fence. You can imagine my shock when he actually planted turnips there - can you believe it? I immediately spoke with him to tell me that he had contradicted himself and that I could, of course, never trust anything he ever said again. To my surprise, he seemed to think I was over-reacting and explained to me that he 'sort of' meant root vegetables in general. Can you imagine the audacity of this? He said carrots - and now he says root vegetables? Clearly the man is insane. How can he possibly say something but then have something else to say about it? Lunacy, as I'm sure you'll agree.

 

[Tom 1]

Hence, you must (either)

?

I refer you back to Job, also in the bible, as I am sure you are aware. I'm assuming you've read it.

 

[cvanwey]

It really is remarkably simple.

My neighbour told me that he plants carrots in the area of his garden near to my fence. You can imagine my shock when he actually planted turnips there - can you believe it? I immediately spoke with him to tell me that he had contradicted himself and that I could, of course, never trust anything he ever said again. To my surprise, he seemed to think I was over-reacting and explained to me that he 'sort of' meant root vegetables in general. Can you imagine the audacity of this? He said carrots - and now he says root vegetables? Clearly the man is insane. How can he possibly say something but then have something else to say about it? Lunacy, as I'm sure you'll agree.

????

False analogy. You state God answers prayer. If He does, then once in a while, He would grant requests from all, including the two topics you are avoiding...

This last response of yours, is nothing more than a distractor. This is you dancing all around the straight forward question....

If you do not care to engage, and demonstrate my 'faulting thinking', then all future correspondence with you, in this thread, is 'pointless'

 

[cvanwey]

I'm assuming you've read it.

The only thing I would like to read, from you, moving forward, is to demonstrate how a God, whom answers some petitionary prayer, decides to skip over, 100% of the time, amputees and people with Down's syndrome?

 

[Tom 1]

If He does, then once in a while, He would grant requests from all, including the two topics you are avoiding

You’re saying that, knowing (I assume) that that is not the biblical teaching on prayer. For example:


“If anyone turns a deaf ear to my instruction, even their prayers are detestable.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭28:9‬ ‭NIV‬‬
Proverbs 28:9 If anyone turns a deaf ear to my instruction, even their prayers are detestable. | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now


“You have covered yourself with a cloud so that no prayer can get through.”
‭‭Lamentations‬ ‭3:44‬ ‭NIV‬‬
Lamentations 3:44 You have covered yourself with a cloud so that no prayer can get through. | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now


“When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you; even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood!”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭1:15‬ ‭NIV‬‬
Isaiah 1:15 When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you; even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood! | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now

“But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:6-7‬ ‭NIV‬‬
James 1:6-7 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now


“If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:16‬ ‭NIV‬‬
James 2:16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now


“You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:2-3‬ ‭NIV‬‬
James 4:2-3 You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now

To save time, I’ll address your post and the question about the OP. The OP claims to be about prayer, presumably prayer as defined in the bible. There are many different teachings about prayer in the bible, above are a few. There is also a long philosophical treatise (Job, as mentioned) on why it is simply foolish, and downright wrong-headed, to have basic notions about life in general, and in particular that, in relation to god, there is some kind of easily defined Quid pro quo that applies in a straightforward and easily understood manner that is always true in any situation. As anyone who is actually alive can tell you, this kind of basic thinking is nonsensical. These things are all in the bible, they constitute some of the biblical teachings about prayer. The OP is not however based in what might be called biblical teaching about prayer, but one verse, taken as if it is the final and only word on the subject. This is supremely childish. I seem to recall you mentioning in another thread that you actual did some formal study of the bible, so how you can hold on to such basic ideas about it is beyond me.

To give your argument any relevance to the topic, you would need to first start with a series of balanced definitions that reflect what the topic says about itself. As you are claiming that x never happens, and assuming you are not referring to some eternal present you mean it never has happened, is not happening and never will happen, then you would also need to prove that assertion for even your basic argument to have any relevance to itself.

 

[Tom 1]

You state God answers prayer.

You could save time by reading preceding posts before replying.

 

[cvanwey]

You’re saying that, knowing (I assume) that that is not the biblical teaching on prayer. For example:


“If anyone turns a deaf ear to my instruction, even their prayers are detestable.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭28:9‬ ‭NIV‬‬
Proverbs 28:9 If anyone turns a deaf ear to my instruction, even their prayers are detestable. | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now


“You have covered yourself with a cloud so that no prayer can get through.”
‭‭Lamentations‬ ‭3:44‬ ‭NIV‬‬
Lamentations 3:44 You have covered yourself with a cloud so that no prayer can get through. | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now


“When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you; even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood!”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭1:15‬ ‭NIV‬‬
Isaiah 1:15 When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you; even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood! | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now

“But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:6-7‬ ‭NIV‬‬
James 1:6-7 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now


“If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:16‬ ‭NIV‬‬
James 2:16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now


“You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:2-3‬ ‭NIV‬‬
James 4:2-3 You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now

To save time, I’ll address your post and the question about the OP. The OP claims to be about prayer, presumably prayer as defined in the bible. There are many different teachings about prayer in the bible, above are a few. There is also a long philosophical treatise (Job, as mentioned) on why it is simply foolish, and downright wrong-headed, to have basic notions about life in general, and in particular that, in relation to god, there is some kind of easily defined Quid pro quo that applies in a straightforward and easily understood manner that is always true in any situation. As anyone who is actually alive can tell you, this kind of basic thinking is nonsensical. These things are all in the bible, they constitute some of the biblical teachings about prayer. The OP is not however based in what might be called biblical teaching about prayer, but one verse, taken as if it is the final and only word on the subject. This is supremely childish. I seem to recall you mentioning in another thread that you actual did some formal study of the bible, so how you can hold on to such basic ideas about it is beyond me.

To give your argument any relevance to the topic, you would need to first start with a series of balanced definitions that reflect what the topic says about itself. As you are claiming that x never happens, and assuming you are not referring to some eternal present you mean it never has happened, is not happening and never will happen, then you would also need to prove that assertion for even your basic argument to have any relevance to itself.

You almost responded, but really did not. Please try again.... Let me clarify, even further, as you seem to need your hand held quite a bit.

Some Christians state God does not answer petitionary/intercessory prayer. Not you.

Some Christians state petitionary/intercessory prayer is pointless, because you cannot change God's predetermined will. Not you.

Some Christians state God does answer (some) petitionary/intercessory prayer. You. <----

Moving forward...

It's fair/safe to assume that intercessory prayer has been presented to God to 'cure' their child with Down's syndrome. It's also very safe to assume petitionary has been presented to God for restoration in amputated limbs.

Please reconcile your presented conflict... (i.e.) You stated God answers prayer. Well, doesn't it seem odd that He skips over all requests above, 100% of the time, while still sometimes answering your request(s)?

What's more likely, 1) God never answers the call for Down's and amputees, or, 2) none of your prayers are actually being answered, but you are still attributing as such to Him?

 

[Tom 1]

You almost responded, but really did not. Please try again.... Let me clarify, even further, as you seem to need your hand held quite a bit.

Some Christians state God does not answer petitionary/intercessory prayer. Not you.

Some Christians state petitionary/intercessory prayer is pointless, because you cannot change God's predetermined will. Not you.

Some Christians state God does answer (some) petitionary/intercessory prayer. You. <----

Moving forward...

It's fair/safe to assume that intercessory prayer has been presented to God to 'cure' their child with Down's syndrome. It's also very safe to assume petitionary has been presented to God for restoration in amputated limbs.

Please reconcile your presented conflict... (i.e.) You stated God answers prayer. Well, doesn't it seem odd that He skips over all requests above, 100% of the time, while still sometimes answering your request(s)?

What's more likely, 1) God never answers the call for Down's and amputees, or, 2) none of your prayers are actually being answered, but you are still attributing as such to Him?

That is getting closer to something. What we have now is a presentation of one of your ideas about prayer and what you think it points to. The other half of your argument is about some sort of demonstration, so if you can provide a demonstration of how 100% of prayers of that sort are never answered - presumably meaning the past and future as well as ‘now’, then you’d have a 2-part argument.

 

[Tom 1]

You almost responded, but really did not. Please try again.... Let me clarify, even further, as you seem to need your hand held quite a bit.

Some Christians state God does not answer petitionary/intercessory prayer. Not you.

Some Christians state petitionary/intercessory prayer is pointless, because you cannot change God's predetermined will. Not you.

Some Christians state God does answer (some) petitionary/intercessory prayer. You. <----

Moving forward...

It's fair/safe to assume that intercessory prayer has been presented to God to 'cure' their child with Down's syndrome. It's also very safe to assume petitionary has been presented to God for restoration in amputated limbs.

Please reconcile your presented conflict... (i.e.) You stated God answers prayer. Well, doesn't it seem odd that He skips over all requests above, 100% of the time, while still sometimes answering your request(s)?

What's more likely, 1) God never answers the call for Down's and amputees, or, 2) none of your prayers are actually being answered, but you are still attributing as such to Him?

As a more general point, Cicero used to introduce himself to new students by marvellously arguing one side of an argument with enormous skill, all ending in ecstatic applause from his audience, all newly convinced of whatever point was being made. He would then proceed to argue the exact opposite equally convincingly, leaving some students dejected and confused and others getting the point; there is an argument/ reality gap. And those were carefully constructed arguments, fully covering a point. Flash forward to some random assertions about one selective definition of a thing without any proofs offered or even any exploration of the topic, and you’ve got the Landlord’s opinion of Chaucer’s ‘doggerel’ in the ‘tales. A broader discussion of the whole topic and any relevant ideas could eventually lead to some useful discussion about whether there is any truth in it, that really could be enlightening in at least broadening some horizons, but if you think this kind of piffle is a substitute for that then you have my sympathies.

 

[cvanwey]

That is getting closer to something. What we have now is a presentation of one of your ideas about prayer and what you think it points to. The other half of your argument is about some sort of demonstration, so if you can provide a demonstration of how 100% of prayers of that sort are never answered - presumably meaning the past and future as well as ‘now’, then you’d have a 2-part argument.

I don't have 'any ideas about prayer.' You do. You seem to assert that God sometimes answers prayer. Well, if He does, please provide an example/examples of amputees, where their limb(s) grew back after petitionary prayer, and further, where someone with Down's syndrome was cured, after intercessory prayer. We have countless reports of answered prayer(s), including yours. Seems as though we could rustle up a few current examples, with these two specific inquiries, as well; couldn't we? Just like we seem to have with the countless other 'answered prayers' reported. If not, at best, you could argue that He does not answer such specific requests, at present

 

[cvanwey]

As a more general point, Cicero used to introduce himself to new students by marvellously arguing one side of an argument with enormous skill, all ending in ecstatic applause from his audience, all newly convinced of whatever point was being made. He would then proceed to argue the exact opposite equally convincingly, leaving some students dejected and confused and others getting the point; there is an argument/ reality gap. And those were carefully constructed arguments, fully covering a point. Flash forward to some random assertions about one selective definition of a thing without any proofs offered or even any exploration of the topic, and you’ve got the Landlord’s opinion of Chaucer’s ‘doggerel’ in the ‘tales. A broader discussion of the whole topic and any relevant ideas could eventually lead to some useful discussion about whether there is any truth in it, that really could be enlightening in at least broadening some horizons, but if you think this kind of piffle is a substitute for that then you have my sympathies.

Yes, there is at least two sides to every argument. I'm presenting mine, in direct response to your prior response. Where's your counter argument? Again, you assert that God answers prayer. I'm asking questions, based upon your prior responses. I asked you for your position long ago....

 

[Tom 1]

I don't have 'any ideas about prayer.' You do.

As you have expressed some ideas about prayer, I'm going to assume that you do have some ideas about prayer.

You seem to assert that God sometimes answers prayer. Well, if He does, please provide an example/examples of amputees, where their limb(s) grew back after petitionary prayer, and further, where someone with Down's syndrome was cured, after intercessory prayer. We have countless reports of answered prayer(s), including yours. Seems as though we could rustle up a few current examples, with these two specific inquiries, as well; couldn't we? Just like we seem to have with the countless other 'answered prayers' reported. If not, at best, you could argue that He does not answer such specific requests, at present

I'm going to offer a suggested reworking of your argument:

Can you provide proof that God ever (never leaves you with having to fill in with some kind of proof) answers prayers of the following sort (I'm changing your examples to one as they seem loaded with a number of assumptions):

A prayer to cure a wasting, uncurable, painful illness.

You'll need to fill in the bit about how proof might be demonstrated in some realistic fashion.

 

[Tom 1]

Yes, there is at least two sides to every argument. I'm presenting mine, in direct response to your prior response. Where's your counter argument? Again, you assert that God answers prayer. I'm asking questions, based upon your prior responses. I asked you for your position long ago....

As you can see, that isn't the point I'm making.

 

[cvanwey]

As you have expressed some ideas about prayer, I'm going to assume that you do have some ideas about prayer.

If I think there is no God there, to even listen, then the rest becomes mute [for me]. I'm merely asking you what specific position [you] take?

1) Some state intercessory/petitionary prayer is pointless, because you cannot change God's will.
2) Some state prayer is merely for speaking back and forth/communication/giving thanks..
3) And then there's the ones like you... Whom assert that God answers some of their prayers.

I'm going to offer a suggested reworking of your argument:

Can you provide proof that God ever (never leaves you with having to fill in with some kind of proof) answers prayers of the following sort (I'm changing your examples to one as they seem loaded with a number of assumptions):

A prayer to cure a wasting, uncurable, painful illness.

You'll need to fill in the bit about how that might be demonstrated in some realistic fashion.

At this point, I've asked about 10 times. You have yet to address. Until you address my long ago requested inquiries, I have no interest in chasing your rabbit trails.

Again, since you assert that God does sometimes answer petitionary/intercessory prayer, please 'explain' why He seems to skip over amputees and Down's syndrome every single time? If you can provide an adequate response, or virtually any relevant response for starters, that would be great. You continue to out-right dodge it.