What does it matter?

[Benedicta00]

I can see where she lived a righteous life before God but still born in sin and still sinned to some degree.. Still needing redemption through the blood of Christ..

You are talking about Mary? Yes, she needed redemption and she was redeemed but at the moment she was conceived.

Why is the when God redeemed her so difficult and impossible for you all to accept?

This is not a question of if... it is a matter of when did God redeemer her.

Mary says clearly that her soul reflects God ...her savior and he who is mighty had done great things to her.

I would love to know really, just what you think Mary was talking about here and how is it-- you all just breeze right past this?

You don't think her life, what we do see of it in scripture reflects, magnifies God her savior?

Where do you see that she sinned to some degree? Not in the bible, that's for darn sure.

"Behold, I am the handmaiden of the Lord..." "He has regarded the humility of his handmaiden..."

I honestly do not know where you are coming from with this, "I see how Mary was born in sin, how she sinned to some degree," stuff.


.

 

[Benedicta00]

Is this what is believed? That through her God despenses all graces? That through her God restores peace? For this is not true statment..

Is Jesus Christ our source of grace or what?

Yeah he is.. now how did he get here? Through Mary's womb? yeah.. that's how it went down...

Now you tell me just in what way are we incorrect by saying graces are dispensed through Mary? And that God restores peace through Mary?

IN what way is this a false statement?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Why is the when God redeemed her so difficult and impossible for you all to accept?

Why?

Because ONLY The Church of Rome says so.

No other Church in the entire world attests to such a statement.

The Church of Jerusalem (the source of all Churches) does not teach this.

The Church of Antioch (first to be called Christian) does not teach this.

The Church of Constantinople does not teach this.

The Church of Alexandria does not teach this.

Four of five of the Churches of the first 1000 years do not teach this.

Why is it so difficult and impossible for you to see that?

It is neither a catholic (kata holos) nor orthodox doctrine.

Which brings another point... This doctrine of the IC of Mary was pronounced Ex Cathedra, which according to The Church of Rome, if I understand correctly, is incapable of pronouncing doctrinal error.

Therefore leaving members of The Church of Rome incapable of admitting that it is not true on the threat of excommunication.

Error after error and no way to correct itself. I don't see a way out for The Church of Rome except to admit that Papal infallability is also untrue.

I pray for the members of The Church of Rome.

It's OK to correct ourselves, we are only human. Christ God knows when we are doing our best.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

Is Jesus Christ our source of grace or what?

Yeah he is.. now how did he get here? Through Mary's womb? yeah.. that's how it went down...

Now you tell me just in what way are we incorrect by saying graces are dispensed through Mary? And that God restores peace through Mary?

IN what way is this a false statement?

that isn't what is meant when it is said, Bene, and you know it. when she is called "medeatrix of graces" it doesn't mean just because Jesus came through her like a Holy pez dispenser, it means that she is active dispensing Grace NOW.

THAT is where we see the error, Bene, and you know it.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

You said...

a Holy pez dispenser!

ROFL!

Forgive me....

 

[Benedicta00]

that isn't what is meant when it is said, Bene, and you know it. when she is called "medeatrix of graces" it doesn't mean just because Jesus came through her like a Holy pez dispenser, it means that she is active dispensing Grace NOW.

THAT is where we see the error, Bene, and you know it.

Her job as the holy Pez dispenser did not end, you think it did, how come you think that?

... yes she does still dispenses grace because this is how God wants it all to go down. he puts his grace in her hand to give to us.

is there a problem with this that I'm missing or something?

Didn't your dad put you mom in charge over you?

I wonder if you know, Mary would never go against God's will. She dispences these graces always according to the will of God.


.

 

[Benedicta00]

Why?

Because ONLY The Church of Rome says so.

No other Church in the entire world attests to such a statement.

The Church of Jerusalem (the source of all Churches) does not teach this.

The Church of Antioch (first to be called Christian) does not teach this.

The Church of Constantinople does not teach this.

The Church of Alexandria does not teach this.

Four of five of the Churches of the first 1000 years do not teach this.

Why is it so difficult and impossible for you to see that?

It is neither a catholic (kata holos) nor orthodox doctrine.

Which brings another point... This doctrine of the IC of Mary was pronounced Ex Cathedra, which according to The Church of Rome, if I understand correctly, is incapable of pronouncing doctrinal error.

Therefore leaving members of The Church of Rome incapable of admitting that it is not true on the threat of excommunication.

Error after error and no way to correct itself. I don't see a way out for The Church of Rome except to admit that Papal infallability is also untrue.

I pray for the members of The Church of Rome.

It's OK to correct ourselves, we are only human. Christ God knows when we are doing our best.

Forgive me...

Not all EO rejects the IC.. you know you've been through this with TLF. .

 

[Uphill Battle]

Not all EO rejects the IC.. you know you've been through this with TLF. .

TLF is not EO. I hardly think that she is an authority on the matter.

 

[Benedicta00]

TLF is not EO. I hardly think that she is an authority on the matter.

She grew up Orthodox Uphill. And say what you will about her-- she studies everything. She knows what she is talking about.
.

 

[PassthePeace1]

Why?

Because ONLY The Church of Rome says so.

No other Church in the entire world attests to such a statement.

The Church of Jerusalem (the source of all Churches) does not teach this.

The Church of Antioch (first to be called Christian) does not teach this.

The Church of Constantinople does not teach this.

The Church of Alexandria does not teach this.

Four of five of the Churches of the first 1000 years do not teach this.

Why is it so difficult and impossible for you to see that?

It is neither a catholic (kata holos) nor orthodox doctrine.

Which brings another point... This doctrine of the IC of Mary was pronounced Ex Cathedra, which according to The Church of Rome, if I understand correctly, is incapable of pronouncing doctrinal error.

Therefore leaving members of The Church of Rome incapable of admitting that it is not true on the threat of excommunication.

Error after error and no way to correct itself. I don't see a way out for The Church of Rome except to admit that Papal infallability is also untrue.

I pray for the members of The Church of Rome.

It's OK to correct ourselves, we are only human. Christ God knows when we are doing our best.

Forgive me...

How could Mary have been the New Eve, if she was not immaculately conceived?

Peace be with you...Pam

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

How could Mary have been the New Eve, if she was not immaculately conceived?

Peace be with you...Pam

Explain to me why her being the new Eve is dependant upon her being IC.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Not all EO rejects the IC.. you know you've been through this with TLF. .

Find me one.

I just started a thread on this very subject. It's a poll.

Do all Eastern Orthodox Christians deny the Immaculate Conception of Mary?

Forgive me...

 

[PassthePeace1]

Explain to me why her being the new Eve is dependant upon her being IC.

Forgive me...

I ask you first.. I'll check out your thread, you mentioned you started.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I ask you first.. I'll check out your thread, you mentioned you started.

I see no reason that she can not be the new Eve.

Eve was created sinless... True.

However, that did not stop her from sinning.

Mary grew old and died... how does that happen if she did not bear the stain of Adam's sin.... for the wages of sin are death.

Forgive me...

 

[sunlover1]

Her job as the holy Pez dispenser did not end, you think it did, how come you think that?

... yes she does still dispenses grace because this is how God wants it all to go down. he puts his grace in her hand to give to us.

is there a problem with this that I'm missing or something?

Didn't your dad put you mom in charge over you?

I wonder if you know, Mary would never go against God's will. She dispences these graces always according to the will of God.


.

Is this a teaching of ECF or something?
I haven't seen anything like what you're
talking about in the Bible.

ty,
sunlover

 

[repentant]

She needed a Savior, just like you and I, however by a singular grace she recieved the meritls of Christ's work on the Cross, at her conception. This article form the Catholic Encyclopedia, can explain it in depth than I can...I am posting a snippet, but you can go to the link to get more details.

I really don't have a problem accepting this, because God is not bound by time, and anything is possible with God.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immaculate Conception

Peace be with you....Pam

A person born with the consequences of original sin, which is death, would not need a Savior, they would be immortal, and have no sins to cleanse. Saying that Mary was "purified" or cleansed of OS in her mother's womb, would mean the Holy Spirit was in her at this time, and would always stay with her..therefore the Holy Spirit wouldn't have had to come upon her to conceive Jesus, He would have already been there.

 

[PassthePeace1]

I see no reason that she can not be the new Eve.

Eve was created sinless... True.

However, that did not stop her from sinning.

Mary grew old and died... how does that happen if she did not bear the stain of Adam's sin.... for the wages of sin are death.

Forgive me...

She was still under the temporal effects of sin, because creation fell.

But by your agrument, how could have Jesus being sinless died, ...for the wages of sin are death.

 

[IamAdopted]

Mary is not the channel of graces.. Christ is.. Through Him do we receive Gods grace and only through Him.. Mary received the same grace that we do.. It is from God through Christ.. Jesus says my grace is suffecient for you..

 

[repentant]

Not all EO rejects the IC.. you know you've been through this with TLF. .

The Church itself's does, anyone who doesn't is in error and/or confused, possibly influence by Rome...and like Uphill said, TLF is def. not the one to ask about this or any Orthodox Doctrine and belief..she obviously did not understand the Church to begin with to leave and become RC..

 

[repentant]

She was still under the temporal effects of sin, because creation fell.

But by your agrument, how could have Jesus being sinless died, ...for the wages of sin are death.

Because HE chose to..and the weight of the world's sin was taken by Him while on the cross, this is why He said, "Father, why have you forsaken me?" Because at this time, the world's sins was upon Him, and He was seperate from the Father for that moment..