What does it matter?

[Axion]

As orthodoxyUSA says, the devil uses ANY division for his own purposes and to cause dissension and hate between Christians. Rejecting the ancient teachings of Christianity regarding Mary, quickly turns into seeking to "prove" the teachings false, and-or dangerous. So we see people combing the scriptures for any verse or incident that can taken in or out of context and be manipulated or massaged into opposing Catholic/Orthodox/Apostolic teaching. We then see people accusing each other of being Necromancers, blasphemers, idol-worshippers etc. The devil loves this.

As far as the doctrines themselves are concerned, the illustrate and defend several important principles

1. The reality of the Incarnation. Jesus REALLY became a man, a descendant of Mary and Davis and Adam. Jesus was also really still God while the Son of Mary.

2. The sinlessness and uniqueness of Jesus who required a sinless human parent, because He is God and also man.

3. The critical role of human choice in the decision to sin (Adam and Eve), and the decision to obey God (Mary)

 

[setmeonfire]

3. The critical role of human choice in the decision to sin (Adam and Eve), and the decision to obey God (Mary)

mary was a good example of a humble servant being willing to be used by god. for god says in 1john 1:5 "but if anyone obets his word God's love is made complete in him"

Rejecting the ancient teachings of Christianity regarding Mary, quickly turns into seeking to "prove" the teachings false, and-or dangerous

the problem is that certain things about mariology werent made dogma til 1950 in reference to the assumption. and it wasnt til the 12 and 13th centuries that adoration of mary started taking off. there are early writings like "Liber qui apellatur Transitus, id est Assumptio Sanctae Mariae, Apocryphus" which is the writing of the assumption mary, and was considered heretical writings by pope gelasius in the papal decree "decretum de libris canonicis ecclesiasticis et apocryphis" of 494-496ad.. this teaching hardly seems like it was always excepted by event he early popes.

 

[Benedicta00]

yikes

St. Thomas taught that the Blessed Virgin Mary “must be shown every honor, preached and praised, and invoked by us in our every need.” [2] She was for him the Mediatrix of all grace. “It is necessary,” St. Thomas tells us, “that whosoever desires to obtain favors with God, should approach this mediatrix, approach her with a most devout heart because, since she is the Queen of Mercy, possessing everything in the kingdom of God's justice, she cannot refuse your petition.” [3] Making the thought of St. Bernard his own St. Thomas reflects that no refusal can exist in the presence of the exceeding charity of her pierced and immaculate heart together with the pierced side and wounds of her Son. “Hence it is,” says St. Thomas, “that the Apostle speaking to the Hebrews (4:16) said, let us go therefore, with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid. For of Mary it has been truly written, . . . In me is all grace of the way. . . . Therefore, come over to me, all ye that desire me, and be filled with my fruits ” (Ecclus 24:24). [4]
http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/mcbride/mcbrideaquinas.htm

Apparently this got lost in the shuffle.

This again is devotional material on Mary and is opinion. It's valued but it's not doctrine or dogma. One can disagree with this level and style of devotion and walk away a good Catholic still.

One can have this kind of devotion and still walk away a good Catholic.

Context is everything. One must be able to know what is meant by this type of expression. It has to be put in context.

A) it's opinion and B) it's language is meant to be an expression of love, not worship towards Mary.

 

[repentant]

scripture says we will be made like the angels correct? in revelation when john tries to bow to the angel, the angel tells him not to!

Not that I remember..I do remember Scripture saying we are going to judge the Angels..

But I really have no clue what this has to do with Mary as Queen of Heaven, or her intercession..

the second commandment says not to bow to any image or worship anything that is in heaven "for I am the lord your god, am a jealous god". now will you find anyone whorshipping anything other than God or an image to give "neberation to a protypte" and not being repromanded the god. its idolatry....

Again, I have no clue what this has to do with it...but the idolotry commandment is well obeyed in the EOC..

the wedding at canna is blown way out of proportion to mean more than it really does. why does no one see this? if you can interpret it that way, then why is it rejected to interpret in rev. when john is told by the angel not bow to him, that no one should bow down to anything but god. again in acts peter the supposed first pope (i know eoe's reject the papacy, i think). a man bows to him as they do the pope now and peter says not to bow in front of him because he is just a man. yet look what goes on now.

Again have no idea what bowing has to do with the topic...and what was rejected in Rev. that has to do with the Wedding at Canna?

And yes EOC's reject the Papacy..

interpreting the wedding at canna in that sense is pulling things out of mid air. and adding to what was just mary saying hey they need wine. and it isnt said in that passage that jesus said...as mary has interceded for this wedding party she may interecede for you.....it doesnt and it goes against way too many scriptures. god does not contradict his word.

Interpreting that way is pulling nothing out of mid air..she told, not asked told, Jesus to make them wine, He did it. When someone tells someone to do something for someone else, that's interceding. It's pretty straight foward really. Jesus did not have to say anything about Mary interceding for us, the fact the story is in there, and that she told Jesus what to do, is the way the writer's chose to tell us that we may ask His Mother to intercede to Him for us..

And how does asking intercession contradict anything..?

 

[repentant]

so did many others who had sick or dead family members that were unable to come to jesus themselves. you must apply that same principle to them and say that anyone who asks for jesus's help too are dispensers of grace in heaven and act as a mediator between christ and men. you cannot apply it to just mary and not everyone else in scripture who came to jesus. and john 2:11 says "his disciples put their faith ih him" not mary

And this is true, we are all called to be mediators...the difference with Mary is that A) She is His Mother and B) She told Him to do it, she didn't ask..

 

[Rick Otto]

When Mary tells Jesus that the paty has run out of wine, he responds,"What claim have you on me? My hour has not yet arrived" Mary nonetheless tells the servants to do as He instructs.

In the papal encyclical,"Redemptoris Mater", says the miracle was worked because of her intercession, & that she can bend the will of the Father, who has set the hour of His Son.

Augustine asserts that Jesus' response points to a mystery:
"Because she was not the mother of his divinity, and the miracle she was asking for had to be worked thru His divinity, He answered her in this way:"What cllaim have you on me? But lest you think I do not recognize you as mother, I add that my hour has not yet arrived. Then shall I recognize you when the weakness you bore has begun it's hour hanging on the cross." [That is when] He gives the mother into the disciple's care. Dying ahead of His mother, He, as a human, gives to another human the care of that human form from whom He drew His humanity."
"Explaining John's Gospel" 8.9

She was the mother of His weakness, not His strength. He makes it clear He will do the miracle, but NOT because of her. His miracles reflect His Father's sovereignity, not human or family agency.
Jaroslav Pelikan's 5 volume history of Catholic doctrine emphasises liturgical & private devotions were often as important as doctrinal debate. A seperate Mariology arose in the Middle Ages. It was then that the obsession with the physical facts of her virginity began.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

When Mary tells Jesus that the paty has run out of wine, he responds,"What claim have you on me? My hour has not yet arrived" Mary nonetheless tells the servants to do as He instructs.

In the papal encyclical,"Redemptoris Mater", says the miracle was worked because of her intercession, & that she can bend the will of the Father, who has set the hour of His Son.

Augustine asserts that Jesus' response points to a mystery:
"Because she was not the mother of his divinity, and the miracle she was asking for had to be worked thru His divinity, He answered her in this way:"What cllaim have you on me? But lest you think I do not recognize you as mother, I add that my hour has not yet arrived. Then shall I recognize you when the weakness you bore has begun it's hour hanging on the cross." [That is when] He gives the mother into the disciple's care. Dying ahead of His mother, He, as a human, gives to another human the care of that human form from whom He drew His humanity."
"Explaining John's Gospel" 8.9

She was the mother of His weakness, not His strength. He makes it clear He will do the miracle, but NOT because of her. His miracles reflect His Father's sovereignity, not human or family agency.
Jaroslav Pelikan's 5 volume history of Catholic doctrine emphasises liturgical & private devotions were often as important as doctrinal debate. A seperate Mariology arose in the Middle Ages. It was then that the obsession with the physical facts of her virginity began.

For the record.... (nothing specific about this post.)

The blessed Augustine got lots of things wrong and repented late in life. It is needful to keep that in mind when reading much of his work.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

And this is true, we are all called to be mediators...the difference with Mary is that A) She is His Mother and B) She told Him to do it, she didn't ask..

I don't see a request, OR an order.

 

[Benedicta00]

I don't see a request, OR an order.

then you don't see it correctly.

 

[Benedicta00]

For the record.... (nothing specific about this post.)

The blessed Augustine got lots of things wrong and repented late in life. It is needful to keep that in mind when reading much of his work.

Forgive me...

What did he repent of other then maybe being extream about the free will/election stuff like what Rick posted and his personal sins?

 

[Uphill Battle]

then you don't see it correctly.

of course not! It doesn't line up with RCC doctrinal stance! I MUST not be reading it correctly!

 

[simonthezealot]

For the record.... (nothing specific about this post.)

The blessed Augustine got lots of things wrong and repented late in life. It is needful to keep that in mind when reading much of his work.

Forgive me...

Have you read Retractions?

 

[Benedicta00]

of course not! It doesn't line up with RCC doctrinal stance! I MUST not be reading it correctly!

Exactly...

And I ask you not use iconology that depicts my beliefs as sickening. .

 

[Benedicta00]

As orthodoxyUSA says, the devil uses ANY division for his own purposes and to cause dissension and hate between Christians. Rejecting the ancient teachings of Christianity regarding Mary, quickly turns into seeking to "prove" the teachings false, and-or dangerous. So we see people combing the scriptures for any verse or incident that can taken in or out of context and be manipulated or massaged into opposing Catholic/Orthodox/Apostolic teaching. We then see people accusing each other of being Necromancers, blasphemers, idol-worshippers etc. The devil loves this.

As far as the doctrines themselves are concerned, the illustrate and defend several important principles

1. The reality of the Incarnation. Jesus REALLY became a man, a descendant of Mary and Davis and Adam. Jesus was also really still God while the Son of Mary.

2. The sinlessness and uniqueness of Jesus who required a sinless human parent, because He is God and also man.

3. The critical role of human choice in the decision to sin (Adam and Eve), and the decision to obey God (Mary)

.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Exactly...

And I ask you not use iconology that depicts my beliefs as sickening. .

that was used for your belief that anyone who doesn't fall in line with RCC thinking is inevitably wrong. That IS sickening.

 

[Kotton]

Yea, also it's not Dogma..

But like was mentioned before..regardless if believing it hinder's our salvation or not, it is the fact that one little thing off, leads to other little things, that lead to big things.

Is the following basicially RC Dogma,Doctrine Do you have to believe it to be in conformity with the RC. This is just my poor attempt to summerize it. RC's please make additions, corrections, deletions. :

And I believe in the Holy, Blessed , Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, and my Mother. She was conceived without sin and lived a perfect and immaculate life so that She, with my Lord Jesus, did earn for me salvation. She was assumed, still a virgin, into Heaven where She lives and reigns, as Queen of Heaven and Earth, with the Holy Trinity now and forever. There She daily hears my prayers and advocates and mediates with God for me. Through Her only does the Holy Trinity dispense all graces , mercies and blessing to the Earth. Through Her will God finally return peace and His Kingdom to the whole Earth.
Mrs. Kotton

 

[repentant]

Is the following basicially RC Dogma,Doctrine Do you have to believe it to be in conformity with the RC. This is just my poor attempt to summerize it. RC's please make additions, corrections, deletions. :

And I believe in the Holy, Blessed , Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, and my Mother. She was conceived without sin
and lived a perfect and immaculate life so that She, with my Lord Jesus, did earn for me salvation. She was assumed, still a virgin, into Heaven where She lives and reigns, as Queen of Heaven and Earth, with the Holy Trinity now and forever. There She daily hears my prayers and advocates and mediates with God for me. Through Her only does the Holy Trinity dispense all graces , mercies and blessing to the Earth. Through Her will God finally return peace and His Kingdom to the whole Earth.
Mrs. Kotton

Now the EOC also believs she chose not sin in life, but unlike the RCC we do not believe in the IC, and that she was born without the sin nature we all are. So like the question I asked in another thread, if it is true that Mary was born without the stain or consequences of original sin (depending on how you view it, but in this case we'll go with the RCC belief) then why did she need a Savior?

 

[IamAdopted]

Is the following basicially RC Dogma,Doctrine Do you have to believe it to be in conformity with the RC. This is just my poor attempt to summerize it. RC's please make additions, corrections, deletions. :

And I believe in the Holy, Blessed , Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, and my Mother. She was conceived without sin and lived a perfect and immaculate life so that She, with my Lord Jesus, did earn for me salvation. She was assumed, still a virgin, into Heaven where She lives and reigns, as Queen of Heaven and Earth, with the Holy Trinity now and forever. There She daily hears my prayers and advocates and mediates with God for me. Through Her only does the Holy Trinity dispense all graces , mercies and blessing to the Earth. Through Her will God finally return peace and His Kingdom to the whole Earth.
Mrs. Kotton

Is this what is believed? That through her God despenses all graces? That through her God restores peace? For this is not true statment..

 

[PassthePeace1]

Now the EOC also believs she chose not sin in life, but unlike the RCC we do not believe in the IC, and that she was born without the sin nature we all are. So like the question I asked in another thread, if it is true that Mary was born without the stain or consequences of original sin (depending on how you view it, but in this case we'll go with the RCC belief) then why did she need a Savior?

She needed a Savior, just like you and I, however by a singular grace she recieved the meritls of Christ's work on the Cross, at her conception. This article form the Catholic Encyclopedia, can explain it in depth than I can...I am posting a snippet, but you can go to the link to get more details.

I really don't have a problem accepting this, because God is not bound by time, and anything is possible with God.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immaculate Conception

Peace be with you....Pam

Immaculate Conception



THE DOCTRINE


In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."


"The Blessed Virgin Mary . . ." The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.


". . .in the first instance of her conception . . ." The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.


". . .was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin. . ." The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul. Simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam -- from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.


". . .by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race." The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor. Such is the meaning of the term "Immaculate Conception."

 

[IamAdopted]

I can see where she lived a righteous life before God but still born in sin and still sinned to some degree.. Still needing redemption through the blood of Christ..