What does it matter?

[StTherese]

If there was someone more suited to the task than Mary, God would have chosen her.

You think God didn't know before hand? Please.

God's foreknowlege has nothing to do with the fact that Mary did have a choice. She was best suited because her will was united to the will of God.

Devotion to Mary is not blasphemy against God...it leads us to a closer relationship with our savior...and therefore closer to God!

 

[StTherese]

If you cannot seee the reasons then nothing i say could ever convince you of it, i'm sure of that.

Still...I am curious as to why YOU believe it is blasphemous...

 

[StTherese]

I'd be interested to know what Marian Dogma has to do with the trinity.

Through Mary's acceptance and the power of the Holy Spirit, the second person of the Trinity became man and dwelt among us.

 

[NewToLife]

Please step down from the pulpit and realize that nobody is dishounoring Mary. Are you seriously suggesting that She could have thwarted God?

Pathetic and typical ad hominem aside.

People have free will, if Mary is not responsible for her yes to God then Adam is not responsible for his disastrous yes either. You cannot logically have it both ways.

 

[Iollain]

Still...I am curious as to why YOU believe it is blasphemous...

Where do i start?

How about the belief that Mary is the holder and decision maker of grace?

HOw about the Total Consecration to Mary, which would take the qualities that the Holy Ghost posesses to do? Is there a Mary Spirit?

 

[Latreia]

I'm just trying to figure it all out.

This wasn't a statment that "it doesn't matter" it's a question, DOES it matter.

The only answers to your question are: yes or no.
If the answer is yes, then you admit that your stance is wrong, and I just don't see that as possible.
If the answer is no, then you think that you have proven that Catholic and Orthodox faiths are wrong.

The point is, that you are not merely asking a question, you are trying to prove that you are right.

If the Marian dogmas are true then the Chruch is the RCC.

If they are not true then this Mary attention is blasphemy against God.

These are the two possible answers to the OP.

And here we have the conclusion to be reached from the naysayers of the OP question.

 

[StTherese]

Where do i start?

How about the belief that Mary is the holder and decision maker of grace?

HOw about the Total Consecration to Mary, which would take the qualities that the Holy Ghost posesses to do? Is there a Mary Spirit?

And how is this different from asking others to pray for us. If the prayers are answered, it was God's grace we received...no?

Mary spirit??? If you are trying to say that we place Mary on the same level as the Holy Spirit then you are wrong.

 

[Iollain]

And how is this different from asking others to pray for us. If the prayers are answered, it was God's grace we received...no?

Mary spirit??? If you are trying to say that we place Mary on the same level as the Holy Spirit then you are wrong.

How about we say that you are the holder and decision maker of grace?

How about we ask you to come live in us and we pray throught you? How is Mary doing this if there is not a Mary Spirit?

Who lives in us? And if the Holy Spirit is living in us then where did this Mary Spirit come from and is it not blasphemy to replace Mary with the Holy Ghost?

 

[Iollain]

And if God is the holder and decision maker of grace, what is it to say that Mary is the holder and decision maker of grace?

It is blasphemy.

 

[StTherese]

Scenerio:

A woman was given foreknowlege by God of your death. She saw that you would die in a burning building at some unknown time and point in your life. She was told by God that she could have a son that would save you, if only she accepted the burden that accompanied it, which included the death of her own son. She accepted this burden and brought forth a son, whom she raised and loved. The time came for her son to fulfill the purpose of his life...to save your life. Your destiny had been changed by her decision to follow God's will. You no longer die in a burning building, but live as a result of His death.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Pathetic and typical ad hominem aside.

People have free will, if Mary is not responsible for her yes to God then Adam is not responsible for his disastrous yes either. You cannot logically have it both ways.

edited out. Spoke poorly. Spoke rudely. Beg forgiveness of those offended.

 

[Uphill Battle]

The only answers to your question are: yes or no.
If the answer is yes, then you admit that your stance is wrong, and I just don't see that as possible.
If the answer is no, then you think that you have proven that Catholic and Orthodox faiths are wrong.

The point is, that you are not merely asking a question, you are trying to prove that you are right.




These are the two possible answers to the OP.

And here we have the conclusion to be reached from the naysayers of the OP question.

no, Orthodox and RCC may very well be correct about the Marian Dogmas. The OP specifically states that we are assuming they are. I am not "proving false" what they believe, but asking what impact it has on my salvation if I do not believe it.

 

[StTherese]

Pathetic and typical Self-aggrandization aside,

You didn't answer the question. Could Mary have thwarted God.

Besides that, if God "saved" Mary prior to her birth, he removed her free will to reject Christ as well... so it's okay in your beliefs, but not ok in others. hmmm...

Actually being "saved" before her birth would have no impact on her free-will. Adam and Eve were created without sin, but still had free-will to reject God.

Mary CHOSE to accept God's will. Not sure what you are asking with "Could Mary have thwarted God?"

 

[Latreia]

no, Orthodox and RCC may very well be correct about the Marian Dogmas. The OP specifically states that we are assuming they are. I am not "proving false" what they believe, but asking what impact it has on my salvation if I do not believe it.

Then the only thing that has any importance is your own personal salvation. But you are not in this forum to promote your salvation, you post in this forum to deny others' rights to to their salvation.

You can argue that what is between you and God excludes Marian Dogmas, I accept that.

But that is not enough. Only removal of something that you don't like will ever please you.

What does not matter to you is that others find comfort and joy in that which you abhor. What does not matter is Christian charity and tolerance.

You have chosen offence and I have chosen defence, because it is not really about the Virgin Mary. Your problem is with the Catholic and Orthodox churches and the need to cause doubt and unhappiness in the hearts of others.

Now that does matter, more than anything else, to me.

 

[Iollain]

Scenerio:

A woman was given foreknowlege by God of your death. She saw that you would die in a burning building at some unknown time and point in your life. She was told by God that she could have a son that would save you, if only she accepted the burden that accompanied it, which included the death of her own son. She accepted this burden and brought forth a son, whom she raised and loved. The time came for her son to fulfill the purpose of his life...to save your life. Your destiny had been changed by her decision to follow God's will. You no longer die in a burning building, but live as a result of His death.

Aside from the fact that Mary did not consider this a burden, what does this have to do with my last two posts here?

And where do you get the idea that Mary knew anything about the Crucifixion, or anything else for that matter, she knew she had been chosen to bring in the Messiah, which Jewish women still look for today, and she was in no way feeling a burden, but she was very excited and happy:




Luk 1:46 ¶ And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,


Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.


Luk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.


Luk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy [is] his name.


Luk 1:50 And his mercy [is] on them that fear him from generation to generation.


Luk 1:51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.


Luk 1:52 He hath put down the mighty from [their] seats, and exalted them of low degree.


Luk 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.


Luk 1:54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of [his] mercy;


Luk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Then the only thing that has any importance is your own personal salvation. But you are not in this forum to promote your salvation, you post in this forum to deny others' rights to to their salvation.

You can argue that what is between you and God excludes Marian Dogmas, I accept that.

But that is not enough. Only removal of something that you don't like will ever please you.

What does not matter to you is that others find comfort and joy in that which you abhor. What does not matter is Christian charity and tolerance.

You have chosen offence and I have chosen defence, because it is not really about the Virgin Mary. Your problem is with the Catholic and Orthodox churches and the need to cause doubt and unhappiness in the hearts of others.

Now that does matter, more than anything else, to me.

where does this come from? I have never once made allusions to the salvation of others.

I understand that you don't like me much, and that's your right, but try to limit your criticisms of me to what I actually DO say.

 

[NewToLife]

Actually being "saved" before her birth would have no impact on her free-will. Adam and Eve were created without sin, but still had free-will to reject God.

Mary CHOSE to accept God's will. Not sure what you are asking with "Could Mary have thwarted God?"

Thank you for saving me the trouble of answering.

 

[NewToLife]

Then the only thing that has any importance is your own personal salvation. But you are not in this forum to promote your salvation, you post in this forum to deny others' rights to to their salvation.

You can argue that what is between you and God excludes Marian Dogmas, I accept that.

But that is not enough. Only removal of something that you don't like will ever please you.

What does not matter to you is that others find comfort and joy in that which you abhor. What does not matter is Christian charity and tolerance.

You have chosen offence and I have chosen defence, because it is not really about the Virgin Mary. Your problem is with the Catholic and Orthodox churches and the need to cause doubt and unhappiness in the hearts of others.

Now that does matter, more than anything else, to me.

My assessment would be the same. Despite the extremely unconvincing protestations otherwise.

 

[Uphill Battle]

edited out. Spoke poorly. Spoke Rudely. Beg forgiveness of all who read it and were offended

 

[Iollain]

Actually being "saved" before her birth would have no impact on her free-will. Adam and Eve were created without sin, but still had free-will to reject God.

Mary CHOSE to accept God's will. Not sure what you are asking with "Could Mary have thwarted God?"

Yeah, aside from the fact that it would make God a cheater.