WHAT DOES BINDING AND LOOSING MEAN IN MATT 18:18 ?

[nolidad]

Then I guess every church established by the apostles themselves had it wrong for the first 1600 years of Christianity? Even in the first 2 centuries the churches that had the closest teachings to the apostles fell to false doctrines? The men that Jesus hand picked failed to accomplish the task God had chosen for them to do? Jesus’ plan to establish a church to preach the gospel to all nations would teach a false gospel, that is until Martin Luther finally came along to set everyone straight? It’s truly amazing how all of these people who were taught by the apostles and those who learned from them who had devoted their lives to God’s assignment would accept these “false doctrines” without any evidence of resistance. That such a wide spread and complete falling away from the true gospel would be possible in such a huge number of devoted Christians in less than 150 years after the church was established.

Well the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus as the full and satisfactory payment for ones sins!

Well if you read the epistles you see many bad practices and false doctrines that Paul and John dealt with!
In the first 2 centuries, you had the Judiazers, gnostics, grecian philosophical heresies, Roman idolatry practices creeping in etc.etc.

No they did not fail at their task. The early church prior to the late 4th century was very very loosely organized.

Once again your confusion lies in teh fact you thiknk the church is an organization or institution. It is not!

The church is a living organism that is people. People are the church not a sect or denomination!

Maybe if you studied teh fisrt three centuries of Chruch history, you would understand why many false doctrines crept in. There was no central command, no open preaching, no massive recopying of the letters. When Paul wrote from Rome to say Timothy- it could take 6 months to a year for Timothy to get that letter. There were no faxes, no cell towers. It had to be sent by ship (the fastest way) and then walked .

Despite all the failings and foibles the church (the body of christ ) has survived the failings of every single denomination created by man! The people of God who form an assembly are imperfect so the "church" is imperfect as well. If you think the church institution during the dark ages was faithful to the gospel message, then you are woefully lacking in knowing church history.

 

[thomas15]

There are no false doctrines in those churches. The only false doctrine that comes to mind would be from the Judaizers who were advocating the necessity of circumcision. Sure the 7 churches in Romans 2-3 had some faults but they were not doctrinal issues my friend.

You are simply wrong on this point. Just like the Israelites in the wilderness when Moses was on the mountain receiving the 10 Commandments, the Israelites were busy as bees with false doctrine, so too was the early church. Once backs were turned, error and false doctrine were introduced, the fruit of sin.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus as the full and satisfactory payment for ones sins!

Well if you read the epistles you see many bad practices and false doctrines that Paul and John dealt with!
In the first 2 centuries, you had the Judiazers, gnostics, grecian philosophical heresies, Roman idolatry practices creeping in etc.etc.

No they did not fail at their task. The early church prior to the late 4th century was very very loosely organized.

Once again your confusion lies in teh fact you thiknk the church is an organization or institution. It is not!

The church is a living organism that is people. People are the church not a sect or denomination!

Maybe if you studied teh fisrt three centuries of Chruch history, you would understand why many false doctrines crept in. There was no central command, no open preaching, no massive recopying of the letters. When Paul wrote from Rome to say Timothy- it could take 6 months to a year for Timothy to get that letter. There were no faxes, no cell towers. It had to be sent by ship (the fastest way) and then walked .

Despite all the failings and foibles the church (the body of christ ) has survived the failings of every single denomination created by man! The people of God who form an assembly are imperfect so the "church" is imperfect as well. If you think the church institution during the dark ages was faithful to the gospel message, then you are woefully lacking in knowing church history.

Or many just don’t want to take the time to understand these early church teachings and why they taught them. There really weren’t very many church writings in the first 3 centuries but St Iranaeus refuted both Calvinism, eternal security, and faith alone in his writing Adversus Haereses in 170AD.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are simply wrong on this point. Just like the Israelites in the wilderness when Moses was on the mountain receiving the 10 Commandments, the Israelites were busy as bees with false doctrine, so too was the early church. Once backs were turned, error and false doctrine were introduced, the fruit of sin.

What doctrinal issues exactly are you referring to?

 

[thomas15]

What doctrinal issues exactly are you referring to?

I'm not your grade school teacher and I'm not doing your homework for you. For me to do so would be a huge waste of time and energy.

 

[Guojing]

Then I guess every church established by the apostles themselves had it wrong for the first 1600 years of Christianity? Even in the first 2 centuries the churches that had the closest teachings to the apostles fell to false doctrines? The men that Jesus hand picked failed to accomplish the task God had chosen for them to do? Jesus’ plan to establish a church to preach the gospel to all nations would teach a false gospel, that is until Martin Luther finally came along to set everyone straight? It’s truly amazing how all of these people who were taught by the apostles and those who learned from them who had devoted their lives to God’s assignment would accept these “false doctrines” without any evidence of resistance. That such a wide spread and complete falling away from the true gospel would be possible in such a huge number of devoted Christians in less than 150 years after the church was established.

The 12 apostles was not setting up any Christian church. They were still promoting Judaism. The Gospel of the Kingdom that they were preaching in Acts was still a message for Jews only.

Even though we now know thru Paul epistles, that the Law was done away with at the cross, no one told the Jews throughout all of Acts.

And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, Acts 22:12

Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:20

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm not your grade school teacher and I'm not doing your homework for you. For me to do so would be a huge waste of time and energy.

Ahh ok so your saying I should be the one to find the evidence to back up your accusations.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The 12 apostles was not setting up any Christian church. They were still promoting Judaism. The Gospel of the Kingdom that they were preaching in Acts was still a message for Jews only.

Even though we now know thru Paul epistles, that the Law was done away with at the cross, no one told the Jews throughout all of Acts.

And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, Acts 22:12

Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:20

Perhaps you should read Acts 15 my friend.

 

[thomas15]

Ahh ok so your saying I should be the one to find the evidence to back up your accusations.

You are free to take anything I say anyway that pleases you. My point is however, your definition of the concept of church is not biblical. Having discussions back and forth with someone that gets the topic heading from sources other than the Bible makes it difficult if not impossible to have fruitful discussion on the sub-topics. Sorry if that offends.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are free to take anything I say anyway that pleases you. My point is however, your definition of the concept of church is not biblical. Having discussions back and forth with someone that gets the topic heading from sources other than the Bible makes it difficult if not impossible to have fruitful discussion on the sub-topics. Sorry if that offends.

We’re talking about false doctrines of the 7 churches mentioned in Revelation 7. What other sources do we have from these churches other than the scriptures? I’m simply asking you to support your claim and you can’t do it because there are no false doctrines mentioned in Revelation 2-3.

 

[Guojing]

Perhaps you should read Acts 15 my friend.

Acts 15 only concluded that Gentiles who believe do not have to follow the Law of Moses.

The Jews continue to be bounded under the Law, and it was confirmed by what the elders and James told Paul in Acts 21:20.

How else do you interpret Acts 15?

 

[thomas15]

Ahh ok so your saying I should be the one to find the evidence to back up your accusations.

We’re talking about false doctrines of the 7 churches mentioned in Revelation 7. What other sources do we have from these churches other than the scriptures? I’m simply asking you to support your claim and you can’t do it because there are no false doctrines mentioned in Revelation 2-3.

If you were to hold the Scriptures in high regard then you would not need anything other than the Scriptures to see which is good doctrine vs. false doctrine. In other words, Scripture is the authority and if other sources back the Scriptures then good but if other sources are silent on the matter or contradict the Bible then we (should) view those sources as suspect. But you don't want to do that. This is of course your right to do so.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Acts 15 only concluded that Gentiles who believe do not have to follow the Law of Moses.

The Jews continue to be bounded under the Law, and it was confirmed by what the elders and James told Paul in Acts 21:20.

How else do you interpret Acts 15?

No I agree that it is possible they were teaching Judaism in Acts but my point is that they were not only teaching the Jews but were also teaching the Gentiles.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Scripture is the authority and if other sources back the Scriptures then good but if other sources are silent on the matter or contradict the Bible then we (should) view those sources as suspect. But you don't want to do that. This is of course your right to do so.

I still don’t understand what other sources your referring to. I’m simply asking for evidence of the 7 churches mentioned in Revelation 2-3 teaching false doctrines. You whole point is that the early church taught false doctrines and you used Revelation 2-3 as evidence. I simply said the churches mentioned in Revelation 2-3 had faults but were not teaching false doctrine and nowhere in the scriptures is there any mention of them teaching false doctrines. Faulty practices and false doctrines are two different things. Everyone stumbles in sin but not everyone teaches false teachings about the Bible. I think you’ve realized your mistake and just done want to admit it.

 

[thomas15]

rev 2:14, 2:15, 2:20

 

[thomas15]

I simply said the churches mentioned in Revelation 2-3 had faults but were not teaching false doctrine and nowhere in the scriptures is there any mention of them teaching false doctrines. Faulty practices and false doctrines are two different things.

Not true

 

[BNR32FAN]

rev 2:14, 2:15, 2:20

Those are not doctrines of the Church. They were teachings of some within the church. Individuals within the church do not decide doctrines. That’s what the ecumenical council is for.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not true

Ok so if I start attending a church and begin teaching people Islam then that church has false doctrines?

 

[BNR32FAN]

rev 2:14, 2:15, 2:20

“'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.


Jesus is warning those who are faithful within the church of the false teachings of those who are in the church so that they may address the problem.

'I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first. But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds. But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them-I place no other burden on you. Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:13-15, 19-25‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Both of these are not about false doctrines of the church but people who are teaching falsely within the church. In order for it to be considered a doctrine it must be embraced by the church as a whole not just individuals within the church.

 

[Guojing]

No I agree that it is possible they were teaching Judaism in Acts but my point is that they were not only teaching the Jews but were also teaching the Gentiles.

So you believe they teach the Gentiles, only after Acts 15? Before that no, since they have to preach obedience to the Law of Moses?

Only Paul and Barnabas was suppose to reach the Gentiles. Galatians 2:9
The 12 restricted themselves to the Jews only.