After perusing these two posts I note that in post #48, you describe three meanings of free will most of them described as limited in some respect. You also provide a dictionary definition of free will and a definition of will.
Will
(Verb)
- To wish, desire, want, to will, or to choose.
Let me first comment on the term will: The term free will is actually a noun so I do not understand why you provided a verb. Here is the noun version:
will2
noun
- 1The faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action.
You are misquoting me. What I posted was accurate.
This is what I posted.
So you are seeing error where there is none.
You said:
Now let's agree that we all have our own wills capable of reasoning in some capacity and deciding a course of action. So what is a free will? I noticed that you provided the oxford dictionary definition but it is missing a vital component. Here is the oxford definition in it's entirety:
The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
I would like to point out that according to this definition, obedience to God would not be a choice made of a free will because it is a choice of necessity lest we die. This effectively nullifies obedience to God as optional and discretionary. This would also mean that God's commandments are imperatives and not suggestions. Since God's Word is the Light and Life of every person, then mankind shall live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.
Just because one of our choices is out of necessity or a requirement does not mean that we cannot freely decide to rebel or go against that choice that is out of necessity. Even if it is a command of God, if we have the ability to act contrary to that command, then we are free to act contrary. You are falsely equating God's will and desire with ability to act contrary. No doubt from God's desire, we do not have a choice or free will, but in ability we do. People sin every day, so this shows that they are acting contrary to God's commands and contrary to God's will, and they are exercising their free will choice to disobey God. This is why there will be a judgment. Men will be judged by their works.
5 "...God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God."
(Romans 2:5-11).
If there was no free will whatsoever for a person to act contrary to God's will, then people would not be able to disobey God. Everyone would perfectly obey.
You said:
Now let's look at the three free wills you describe:
#1. Man's Limited Slave to Sin Type Free Will.
#2. Man's Limited Redemptive Type Free Will.
#3. God's Limited to Doing Only Good Type Free Will.
The first thing I notice, is that you are using the term free with arbitrary and even contradictory denotations. You could have just used the term "will" by it's self and accomplished the same intent.
The first will is actually what scripture calls the will of the flesh. This will lives according to the desires of the sinful flesh. This is the carnal mind which also reasons according to a vain imagination and it is by nature in enmity with God.
Unbelievers can do good and loving things, but it is out of a false motivation. They are free to do good things and bad things, although the good things they put forth do not count because it is their own righteousness and not God's righteousness done through them. It is not the Lord God working good through their lives but it is their own good. But the Bible does also judge men by their works. The first work all men must do is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation (See John 6:28-29). Under a certain time of drawing by God, a person will be illuminated to the truth so as to freely understand and freely choose of the gospel (2 Corinthians 4:4); Their heart will be opened to hear the truth (See: Acts of the Apostles 16:14).
Even God talked with Cain and desired him to do what was good and right (Genesis 4:7).
We can even see that when a person loves God and keeps His Word, then the Father and Jesus will make their abode in that person.
"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).
This is another way of a person coming to God.
We see this with Cornelius.
He feared God and kept his commandments, and God's plan of salvation was revealed to him by Peter and he was filled with the Holy Spirit (God) and became saved.
But it was his seeking to obey and love God beforehand that led to his salvation. Cornelius exercised his free will to seek to fear God and obey His commandments. Then God moved to reveal Himself and live within Cornelius.
You said:
The second will is the spiritual will and it is what is being quickened through the Spirit of Christ. This is the Rhema that was in mankind since Adam and which was diminished or fallen due to distrust in God's Character. It is a will that is being converted to a new man with a renewal of the mind through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Who eliminates the carnal reasoning by exposing the deceptions of carnal vanity as only imaginary and void of goodness.
Do you believe that a Christian can sin and still be saved on some level? Meaning, if a believer looks at a woman in lust without intending to do so (or without them seeking out to do that) are they still saved or do they have to confess of that sin in order to be forgiven again? In other words, are future sins paid for involving a Christian? If this is the case for a believer, then I fail to see how you think the believer has really changed from being an unbeliever. But again, unless you think believers are devoid of never having any capacity to sin whatsoever, I fail to see how you think they do not have the free will capacity to choose righteousness (God's will) or to sin (which is against God's will). The fact that we see many believers mentioned in the Bible sin proves that they do have a will that can freely choose to act contrary to God's will still. That is what is meant by free. The very act and capacity to exercise one's own choice to do what is contrary to God's will. They are free to choose by the fact that they can act either way. If they were not free to act either way, then they would perfectly obey God and they could not act contrary to God's will.
Finally, there is God's will that can do no wrong, wherein lies wisdom and Eternal life.
In each will, the term free adds nothing significant or efficacious to the meanings.
You definitely conflate choice/option and choice/decision when you say this:
You have things so twisted around, you don't either appear to understand basic concepts of being able to act contrary to God's will (Free will choice) vs. acting in accordance to God's will by one's own discretion (Free will choice). How else will God judge people if they are not responsible for the choices they make? If there is no free will choice, and something else is forcing them to be that way, then they cannot help but to be blamed. They are slaves to whatever system God has placed them in and they cannot be judged because they had no other ability otherwise to escape the state that they were in. For example: It would be like God judging a pack of wolves for attacking human beings. The wolves do not have a sense of right and wrong to be able to choose otherwise. They are acting on instinct. What you have done is made humans out to be like wolves (as if to say they cannot ever at any point in their life turn their life around under the awakening of the truth by God). They somehow have to be regenerated and forced to be a certain way against their own free will.
You said:
Notice that the thing we are choosing between in a dichotomy of good and evil is what is right and wrong, true or false, life or death, sin or God. You are therefore claiming that we "cannot have any desire or to choose differently" without sin as an option. Essentially you're intimating that we cannot have a free will without sin, as if a lie is something to consider as viable. And yet you contradict that by saying that God's will is free even though He cannot go against His own perfect will and change His perfect desire, nor believe a lie.
Again, you are conflating God's will and desire with the actual ability a person is given to choose God or to not choose God. Sin is an option because we see people sin every day. If sin was not an option, then nobody would be able to sin. This is where your odd theology does not make any sense.
You said:
I feel you also contradict yourself when you say the redemptive free will is a higher level of free even because it is not a slave to sin. Since that would indicate the more we are incapable of choosing sin the more free the will becomes, then why would sin be necessary for a free will?
Not at all. You are merely looking at things from a wrong perspective and you see error where none exists. You have things labeled wrong. Again, a Christian is able to freely choose to do more righteous things with the Lord working in their life that an unbeliever does not have. They have the free will capacity to act in a way that an unbeliever cannot act. So it is not a contradiction but merely your failure to understand it because you have let some other theology cloud your judgment so as not to see it.
Respectfully, it seems to me that you regard any choice whatsoever between good and evil as freely made simply because there was an option.
Yes. It is that simple. You have free will because you can freely choose between good and evil. Even Cornelius did that before he accepted the Lord Jesus Christ.
You said:
Eve sinned because she was beguiled by the tempting of the serpent, and Adam sinned by listening and following the beguiled woman.
All three did not heed God. Hence the serpent contrived some propaganda, Eve was gullible and Adam probably lacked confidence in his own judgment.
First off, the entire episode would not have happened without the serpent. He received the greatest punishment. As for Adam and Eve, I tend to believe they had to learn just how good they had it by losing it, just like the prodigal son.
While certain people or beings can influence us to sin, we are ultimately responsible for our own sin because a person is drawn away by their own lust.
14 "...every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death." (James 1:14-15).
"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." (Genesis 3:6).
Again, you are attempting to shift the blame. The name blame game as if that was the correct thing to do. While others can influence to sin, we are ultimately responsible for our own sin. For if we were not responsible for our own sin, then why did God punish them? Think. If Adam was not responsible for his own sin, then why has death passed down upon all men as a result of his sin?
You said:
I think it would be irresponsible to not learn from their mistake by seeing that they were deceived into trying to fix what was not broken, and more importantly that God is trustworthy. It would also be hypocritical and self condemning to show no grace nor understanding considering that I too have sinned.
God's grace is for those who repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ) and when they forsake their evil and wicked ways. If a believer is still sinning, then they are showing that they have not really repented.
You said:
Well you know acting responsibly actually comes from caring about how our choices effect others. Hence we must love one another by walking in His Spirit. Well I think if we are truly sorry for what wrongs we do, then we will seek to atone. Jesus said that one act of Love covers a multitude of sins, and those forgiven much do Love much. I do not think blaming is productive. Jesus paid for our sins to fulfill the requirement of the law and yet he did not deserve punishment. We must all seek to have the mind of Christ.
Ah, so you believe Jesus paid for future sin? This is not how salvation works. A believer is initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (as their Savior), but they must do "works of faith" (obey God) as a part of the salvation process. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 essentially tells us that we need both a belief in the truth and Sanctification (holy living) as a part of salvation.
