What doctrines are non-negotiable?

[Gregory Thompson]

Yes, there's a sense of major and minor truths. Hence the OP.

There's also a sense of, as believers, we're the children of God. So, the question is still, what must I do to become a child of God? What must I do/believe? What is non-negotiable there? Seeing each other as brothers/sisters in the Lord is probably more a matter of maturity than anything else. Remember the I am of Apollos, of Paul, of Cephas, of Christ? carnal stuff Paul said.

I think also it's not just about being "born again" much like with the concept of "awakening" it is more than "waking up" and as in life more to life than being born. John said in his letters a bold statement that we have confidence on the day of Judgment because the love that God is has become complete in us.

In matters of interpretation . if this love is not exemplified . it basically disqualifies the interpretation for me .

same goes with faith .. in the letter to the Romans attributed to Paul it is said regarding food .. then a because statement is said that is quite profound .. that "anything that does not come from faith is sin" therefore a bible interpretation that does not come from faith/trust/other epistis translative words .. is really missing the mark .

another thing on love .. it is written a little earlier in Romans that any commandment whatever it be .. is summed up in this one saying that you shall love your neighbour as yourself .. and is qualified that love does not harm their neighbour . if in forming "policies" from the scripture .. it is harmful and in some cases bigotted . i tend to distance myself from this as well .

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Generally . the same goes for "the lists"

if you believe the fruit of the spirit . then apply it to your bible interpretation . if the fruit isn't there .. you know what it is from what fruit is there .

if you are big into the commandments .. then don't covet others to take on your opinion of how to interpret . do not turn your interpretation into an idol . etc .

if you want to have the peace that surpasses understanding understand from the context how to interpret the passage .. think on good .. noble .. trustworthy .. lovely .. things . i.e. look for the good and the God of peace will certainly be with you in your bible study . don't worry about what each word means .. but pray through the whole passage . see it as a whole living being as from the mouth of a living breathing God . let God teach you .. and the peace that surpasses what you think your understand .. will protect your heart and your mind .. (that coincidentally have passages of scripture hidden in them) in Christ Jesus

 

[MoreCoffee]

That's good advice. That hit me square in the face when I was posting recently. I decided my desire to know was not worth the loss of fellowship. It wasn't that I wanted to question it but understand it (not believe it). I remembered that in public is not always the best place to learn. I found the answer this morning. I asked a Catholic priest. He got me to answer my own question by asking me a similar question about a Dogmatic teaching of my faith. I felt kinda silly as I had the answer to my question all the time. The answer was this: "It has been decided and there is no dispute among us about it"

I noticed that Albion made a remark or two about your reply (shown above) to my post. I thought his remarks were odd.

One ought, as a Christian, to believe what one's church teaches considering that a christian believes what Jesus teaches and considering that what is in the bible plays such a significant role in Christian faith. And both of these sources of revelation exist either as the object of christian faith or as the foundation for it.
-----
The Church’s Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.

There is an organic connection between our spiritual life and the dogmas. Dogmas are lights along the path of faith; they illuminate it and make it secure. Conversely, if our life is upright, our intellect and heart will be open to welcome the light shed by the dogmas of faith.

The mutual connections between dogmas, and their coherence, can be found in the whole of the Revelation of the mystery of Christ. “In Catholic doctrine there exists an order or ‘hierarchy’ of truths, since they vary in their relation to the foundation of the Christian faith.”

-- Courtesy of the Catholic Church

 

[Standing Up]

I noticed that Albion made a remark or two about your reply (shown above) to my post. I thought his remarks were odd.

One ought, as a Christian, to believe what one's church teaches considering that a christian believes what Jesus teaches and considering that what is in the bible plays such a significant role in Christian faith. And both of these sources of revelation exist either as the object of christian faith or as the foundation for it.-snip-

RevRandy already said he does. So do you. So do I. But we've already established that horizontally, none of us agree on dogma.

OTOH, you might be like another EO poster who essentially said, we got it, you don't. IOW, you may believe RC got it and EO don't. I would simply ask you to take your view therefore, to its logical conclusion. Let us know what you come up with.

 

[Standing Up]

I think also it's not just about being "born again" much like with the concept of "awakening" it is more than "waking up" and as in life more to life than being born. John said in his letters a bold statement that we have confidence on the day of Judgment because the love that God is has become complete in us.

In matters of interpretation . if this love is not exemplified . it basically disqualifies the interpretation for me .

same goes with faith .. in the letter to the Romans attributed to Paul it is said regarding food .. then a because statement is said that is quite profound .. that "anything that does not come from faith is sin" therefore a bible interpretation that does not come from faith/trust/other epistis translative words .. is really missing the mark .

another thing on love .. it is written a little earlier in Romans that any commandment whatever it be .. is summed up in this one saying that you shall love your neighbour as yourself .. and is qualified that love does not harm their neighbour . if in forming "policies" from the scripture .. it is harmful and in some cases bigotted . i tend to distance myself from this as well .

Well, there is that. We are known by our love one for another, not our dogmas.

Still, I would suggest that there is one non-negotiable. Who is Christ? God-in-the-flesh. The alternative is anti-Christ.

Beyond that one essential, we should, assuming levels of maturity, be able to get along and commune along and pray together, etc. without fear of defiling each other somehow.

 

[Cjwinnit]

...honestly, why are Straw Men logical fallacies so bloody popular here?

Because so few Christians are used to having an adult conversation with each other in the Church. We all need prayer.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Well, there is that. We are known by our love one for another, not our dogmas.

Still, I would suggest that there is one non-negotiable. Who is Christ? God-in-the-flesh. The alternative is anti-Christ.

Beyond that one essential, we should, assuming levels of maturity, be able to get along and commune along and pray together, etc. without fear of defiling each other somehow.

Without a sound understanding of the first precept love, the other doctrines will be off base . so it wouldn't essentially matter what people think of them . without love it is nothing .

 

[Rev Randy]

How depressing to read anything in praise of "check your brain at the church door." It also makes no sense to me, considering that you had to use it in order to decide which church is the right one for you, didn't you?

Decide? That's not how it happened. I was just doing some mission work with some carpentry skills I have and fell in love. Check your brain at the door? As a Catechumen one is given full opportunity to question everything and should remain in that state until they come into agreement or disagreement.
We have two choices. We can seek that which agrees with us or agree with the Church.
As we are ever changing alone because we grow to find some of our personal thoughts have been wrong we should know we are not the best judge of right and wrong. I would hope at the very least we know we as individuals are able to make a wrong choice. The church is tried and true and has just a tad longer history than me. Now why should i think I can come around with a bunch of great changes?
Long ago a man made this thing called a wheel. He made it;s shape round and it worked well. Not a day has past since then without some other man trying to change that shape hoping it would work better. To date the shape that works best is still round.
There is no need to tinker with perfection. If we need to fix something we have ourselves to fix. That can be improved upon.
No do not check your brain at the door. It's useful in worship.

 

[Albion]

Decide?

Of course "decide." No one put a gun to your head and forced you to become a member of your church, did they?

Check your brain at the door? As a Catechumen one is given full opportunity to question everything and should remain in that state until they come into agreement or disagreement.

Then there should be no disagreement over the fact that you had to make a conscious, free decision to belong to the church you belong to.

As for "check your brain at the door"...that's a well-known saying that simply means suspending all your own intellectual faculties and accepting, blindly, whatever the church you belong to tells you to believe. I doubt that you did this, but that's the way you put your argument/explanation to us.

We have two choices. We can seek that which agrees with us or agree with the Church.

Not really. We can agree with some church because we just want to throw ourselves upon it and be released from the burden of deciding...or else we can join the church that appears to us to be the most nearly correct or otherwise appealing to us.

As we are ever changing alone because we grow to find some of our personal thoughts have been wrong we should know we are not the best judge of right and wrong. I would hope at the very least we know we as individuals are able to make a wrong choice. The church is tried and true and has just a tad longer history than me. Now why should i think I can come around with a bunch of great changes?

Because age is not the determiner of truth, and much of the "we've never changed" line of argument is a myth.

 

[sunlover1]

As we are ever changing alone because we grow to find some of our personal thoughts have been wrong we should know we are not the best judge of right and wrong.

True that there is a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof is death,
but we are born again, spirit filled, NEW creations. We now have
the mind of Christ and are being perfected, filled with and led by God.
He even said that once the Spirit came, that HE'd lead us, as Christ led us.
So we now just need to listen to the good Shepherd, who's voice we CAN
hear, and never follow the voice of another... and I don't follow men's
voices either UNLESS it lines up with Scripture.
Men are fallible (well most )

I would hope at the very least we know we as individuals are able to make a wrong choice.

Amen, and so are those that God put into authority over us.
Such as moms and dads, pastors etc.
Human, fallible, prone to mistakes.
Amazing how a perfect God will take up residency in such!

The church is tried and true and has just a tad longer history than me. Now why should i think I can come around with a bunch of great changes?

"The church" is fractured and has MANY different beliefs.
That's why we have the threads we have in GT.
I don't even trust my own pastor or church to be the be all and end all.
That's reserved for God alone, no group of men.
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God

God gave us pastors and teachers and apostles etc,
but that doesn't mean that they're perfect.
Let God be true!

Thus said the LORD;
Cursed be the man that trusts in man,
and makes flesh his arm,
and whose heart departs from the LORD.
For he shall be like the heath in the desert,
and shall not see when good comes;
but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness,
in a salt land and not inhabited.
Blessed is the man that trusts in the LORD,
and whose hope the LORD is.
For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters,
and that spreads out her roots by the river,
and shall not see when heat comes,
but her leaf shall be green;
and shall not be careful in the year of drought,
neither shall cease from yielding fruit. …

Isaiah 2:22
Stop trusting in mere humans,
who have but a breath in their nostrils.
Why hold them in esteem?

Put not your trust in princes,
nor in the son of man,
in whom there is no help.

 

[Rev Randy]

Of course "decide." No one put a gun to your head and forced you to become a member of your church, did they?


Then there should be no disagreement over the fact that you had to make a conscious, free decision to belong to the church you belong to.

As for "check your brain at the door"...that's a well-known saying that simply means suspending all your own intellectual faculties and accepting, blindly, whatever the church you belong to tells you to believe. I doubt that you did this, but that's the way you put your argument/explanation to us.


Not really. We can agree with some church because we just want to throw ourselves upon it and be released from the burden of deciding...or else we can join the church that appears to us to be the most nearly correct or otherwise appealing to us.


Because age is not the determiner of truth, and much of the "we've never changed" line of argument is a myth.

Well then, we simply disagree. No problem with that.If you agreed with me too much, I'd become concerned about you

 

[Rev Randy]

True that there is a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof is death,
but we are born again, spirit filled, NEW creations. We now have
the mind of Christ and are being perfected, filled with and led by God.
He even said that once the Spirit came, that HE'd lead us, as Christ led us.
So we now just need to listen to the good Shepherd, who's voice we CAN
hear, and never follow the voice of another... and I don't follow men's
voices either UNLESS it lines up with Scripture.
Men are fallible (well most )
Amen, and so are those that God put into authority over us.
Such as moms and dads, pastors etc.
Human, fallible, prone to mistakes.
Amazing how a perfect God will take up residency in such!
"The church" is fractured and has MANY different beliefs.
That's why we have the threads we have in GT.
I don't even trust my own pastor or church to be the be all and end all.
That's reserved for God alone, no group of men.
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God

God gave us pastors and teachers and apostles etc,
but that doesn't mean that they're perfect.
Let God be true!

Thus said the LORD;
Cursed be the man that trusts in man,
and makes flesh his arm,
and whose heart departs from the LORD.
For he shall be like the heath in the desert,
and shall not see when good comes;
but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness,
in a salt land and not inhabited.
Blessed is the man that trusts in the LORD,
and whose hope the LORD is.
For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters,
and that spreads out her roots by the river,
and shall not see when heat comes,
but her leaf shall be green;
and shall not be careful in the year of drought,
neither shall cease from yielding fruit. …

Isaiah 2:22
Stop trusting in mere humans,
who have but a breath in their nostrils.
Why hold them in esteem?

Put not your trust in princes,
nor in the son of man,
in whom there is no help.

You make some valid points. But I wonder if we meet face to face in heaven if the term "fractured" when speaking of the church will be nothing more than us laughing about how wrong that idea was. What we think we see may not be the truth of what we are seeing.
This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.Eph 5:32

 

[sunlover1]

You make some valid points.

But I wonder if we meet face to face in heaven....

Hold the phone! "IF"?

if the term "fractured" when speaking of the church will be nothing more than us laughing about how wrong that idea was. What we think we see may not be the truth of what we are seeing.
This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.Eph 5:32

And now you too make a valid point.
It's like a cliffhanger

 

[Rev Randy]

Hold the phone! "IF"?


And now you too make a valid point.
It's like a cliffhanger

I too see a cliffhanger; When am I allowed to put the phone down?

 

[Albion]

Well then, we simply disagree. No problem with that.If you agreed with me too much, I'd become concerned about you

If you want to leave it at that, I'm stuck. I'm left wondering how a set of doctrines held by one denomination has forced you to accede to them without you having any say in the matter. How exactly is that possible?

 

[YeShallTread]

Obviously Christians do not all agree on every nuisance of Scripture. There are some doctrines (salvation by grace through faith and not of works Eph 2:8-9) that I see as non-negotiable.

Others (Jesus clearly taught a post-tribualtion rapture in Matthew 24) I view as important but not worth breaking fellowship over.

All Scripture is God breathed, so it's all important.

What doctrines do you view add non negotiable? It doesn't have to be an exhaustive list, my post certainly isn't

The Big 3 to me are...

1. There is no rapture..be prepared.
2. Belief that the end of this age happened in 70AD and is not future is a serious mistake.
3. There is One True God and He is Jesus Christ...believe in His name.

 

[Albion]

The Big 3 to me are...

1. There is no rapture..be prepared.
2. Belief that the end of this age happened in 70AD and is not future is a serious mistake.
3. There is One True God and He is Jesus Christ...believe in His name.

I appreciate anyone taking a stab at listing essential (or, OTOH, non-essential) doctrines. But what are you saying about your "Big 3?" That these are the three and only three essential beliefs? No rapture?

 

[Rev Randy]

If you want to leave it at that, I'm stuck. I'm left wondering how a set of doctrines held by one denomination has forced you to accede to them without you having any say in the matter. How exactly is that possible?

Quite simple. Any say I might have would not have changed a thing. I decided it was not about me unless my conscience could not bear it. Can't say I found any dogmatic teaching that way where I found myself. Now I have faced such in my life. I was once told I must uphold and adhere to the Rapture thing or face expulsion. Seems they were not as serious about it as they said as I bucked like Tornado the bull and it just went away.
I questioned just about everything with the Orthodox Church before I submitted. The explanations were enough. I found a place to properly use the rebel in me. I rebel against the world.
I simply do not have an issue with the Church. Oh from time to time I have issues with people even within the Communion but not the teaching of the Church.
Can I PM you a question? I think it might help me understand you a bit better.

 

[Albion]

Quite simple. Any say I might have would not have changed a thing. I decided it was not about me unless my conscience could not bear it. Can't say I found any dogmatic teaching that way where I found myself. Now I have faced such in my life. I was once told I must uphold and adhere to the Rapture thing or face expulsion. Seems they were not as serious about it as they said as I bucked like Tornado the bull and it just went away.
I questioned just about everything with the Orthodox Church before I submitted. The explanations were enough. I found a place to properly use the rebel in me. I rebel against the world.
I simply do not have an issue with the Church. Oh from time to time I have issues with people even within the Communion but not the teaching of the Church.

Thanks. That makes complete sense, but it's also quite the opposite of what I THOUGHT you were saying earlier which I could hardly believe you meant.

Can I PM you a question? I think it might help me understand you a bit better.

Of course.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I find it a bit odd that anybody would name any series of eschatological thought as some of their top "non-negotiables".

For me, I find PaladinValer's list to most accurately represent my own list of non-negotiable doctrines.