What do you think?

Jesse2014 · May 27, 2014

What do you think God would say to a person who only obeyed out of fear when judgment day comes, but never learned to really love him?

This is me. I am having a hard time delighting myself in the Lord. For when I think of God I think of all the people he is going to condemn. I give him the worship he is so worthy of. I tremble in fear when I enter into worship, so I don't enjoy it. I have put my faith in Jesus Christ, our Lord. But I still tremble at his name. Probably because there is still sin in my life. I do have sinful habits that I am trying to break. I am always asking God's forgiveness, even if I had not sinned that day. Just in case I have committed a sin that I was unawear of. Sometimes I do it 4x's a day asking his forgiveness, even if I hadn't sin. David said "how can we know all the sin that is lurking in our hearts?"

Do you think God could say to me "flee from me you worker of iniquity into the eternal fire" if I don't learn to love him like I should?

Albion · May 27, 2014

Jesse2014 said:
What do you think God would say to a person who only obeyed out of fear when judgment day comes, but never learned to really love him?
...........................................................................................................
Do you think God could say to me "flee from me you worker of iniquity into the eternal fire" if I don't learn to love him like I should.

My personal feeling is that this would not exclude you from salvation. FWIW, the Roman Catholic Church has long maintained that there are two kinds of contrition--perfect and imperfect. The first is repentance because of loving God and embracing truth for its own sake. The second is repentance out of fear of the consequences. But both are considered to have the same effect.

Pal Handy · May 27, 2014

Jesse2014 said:
What do you think God would say to a person who only obeyed out of fear when judgment day comes, but never learned to really love him?

This is me. I am having a hard time delighting myself in the Lord. For when I think of God I think of all the people he is going to condemn. I give him the worship he is so worthy of. I tremble in fear when I enter into worship, so I don't enjoy it. I have put my faith in Jesus Christ, our Lord. But I still tremble at his name. Probably because there is still sin in my life. I do have sinful habits that I am trying to break. I am always asking God's forgiveness, even if I had not sinned that day. Just in case I have committed a sin that I was unawear of. Sometimes I do it 4x's a day asking his forgiveness, even if I hadn't sin. David said "how can we know all the sin that is lurking in our hearts?"

Do you think God could say to me "flee from me you worker of iniquity into the eternal fire" if I don't learn to love him like I should?

There is a balance that needs to come into your life and walk with God.

First, your fear of the Lord because of your sins should cause you to run to God and not away from
Him as He loves you and does not want to destroy you or anyone but His desire is that we would come
to Him in Christ and find forgiveness and help.

Second, Knowing that you are not perfect and yet God chose to send His son into the world to
die for your sins in your place, should cause you to see that God loves you so much that He gave
all of Himself in the form of a man (Jesus Christ) to prove that He wants you to come near to Him
in love and trust through Jesus Christ.

Third, Seeing your sin and knowing that you can never be perfect in yourself, you need to see that
in Christ alone are you acceptable to God.
In Christ alone are you forgiven, pardoned, made holy and righteous before God.
Knowing this, that you are accepted in Christ, you need to cling to Him and pray in His name and
come to God the Father in Christ's name and authority as you understand that this pleases God and
He is satisfied with your willingness to give up your own filthy rags of self righteousness and to
instead take on the right standing of Christ alone before God.

Forth, Knowing that as you cling to Christ alone for your right standing before God,
you can rest assured that when God looks at you He sees His son Jesus Christ and is pleased
with you and does not condemn you but asks you to draw closer to Him in Christ.

It is this relationship with God in Christ that brings us into a deeper love relationship with God
so that as we see how much God's loves us, we will surrender ourselves to God in
Christ and find His strength to overcome our sins and become all the more devoted
to our heavenly Father.

I could post a ton of scriptures to back up what I am saying so if
you need more, let me know....

aiki · May 27, 2014

What do you think God would say to a person who only obeyed out of fear when judgment day comes, but never learned to really love him?

Deu 6:5 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.
1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profits me nothing.

This is me. I am having a hard time delighting myself in the Lord. For when I think of God I think of all the people he is going to condemn.

And what of all the people to whom He had no obligation to show mercy who He will/has nonetheless saved at terrible cost to Himself? Why do you not think of them?

I give him the worship he is so worthy of.

There is no true worship of God without love for Him.

I tremble in fear when I enter into worship, so I don't enjoy it.

I should guess not!

I have put my faith in Jesus Christ, our Lord. But I still tremble at his name.

I'm sorry, but you can't really trust someone who only terrifies you.

Probably because there is still sin in my life.

Yeah, this will make you a little tense around God.

I do have sinful habits that I am trying to break.

It is God's job to break them, not yours.

I am always asking God's forgiveness, even if I had not sinned that day.

But you are already forgiven in Christ.

Just in case I have committed a sin that I was unawear of. Sometimes I do it 4x's a day asking his forgiveness, even if I hadn't sin. David said "how can we know all the sin that is lurking in our hearts?"

You are entirely too focused on your sin. Be careful. You will be conformed to your focus.

Do you think God could say to me "flee from me you worker of iniquity into the eternal fire" if I don't learn to love him like I should?

But you don't learn to love God. He gives you His love and you return it to Him. There is no other love God desires from us but His own.

Selah.

1watchman · May 27, 2014

If one is not saved by full faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, that one will not be in Heaven and come to judgment for works, but be cast away for rejection of God's "..so great salvation" in Christ.

Then if one is a true "born again" believer in Christ that one will come before the Lord as a "child of God" in Heaven, and will be blessed, though will forfeit much for carnal ways and failures. There is no punishment in Heaven, but forfeitures.

I have often appreciated the thought and expect to be judged as 1) How I regarded the Son of God; 2) How I regarded the Word of God; 3) How I regarded the testimony of God; 4) How I regarded the people of God. That is something for believers to think about now.

Goodbook · May 28, 2014

Possibly. That's why you need the Holy Spirit, to help you learn. You need to ask God for this gift. If you don't ask, you won't receive.

What do you think of Jesus, pouring out his precious blood to pay for your sin on the cross? Do you believe he did that for you? Is there any sin his blood does not cover? He is the son of God, he came in the flesh so he was like us in every way. The sinful things that hurt us hurt him too. He understands how tough life here on earth is, but he made a way for us. He gave his life for us.

Do you believe after he was crucified, God raised him from the dead? If yes to all these questions, then trust that Jesus will save you. He never goes back on his word. He is the Word. Ask him to come into your life so you can be free of sin.

Don't just believe half of what Jesus did. Some people believe he died and paid for sins but even atheists can believe that too. You must believe in the fact he is raised from the dead, and is alive and sitting at the right hand of God the Father in heaven right now, otherwise the Kingdom of heaven is no profit for you. Don't be afraid of Jesus. Don't be afraid of God. many times in scripture it says 'fear not'. Jesus loves you. He will bring you peace.

Jesse2014 · May 28, 2014

I get what you guys are saying. Jesus told the pharasees (I don't know if I spelled that right) that they honored him with their lips, but their hearts were far from him. Jesus also told the church in Ephesus that even though they were loyal to him and obeyed him, they still didn't love him. And unless they turned back to their first love (Jesus), he was going to remove their lampstand.

And Zechariah said in his prophecy, "we have been rescued from our enemies, so we can serve God without fear, in holiness and righteousness forever." I don't think it is God's desire for me to serve him in fear.

However, I don't think fearful obedience will exclude someone from heaven; I think God accepts fearful obedience. In the old testament, God came down the mountain and the people trembled in fear. Moses told them not to be afraid, but to use that fear to obey God. Jesus also said fear God who has the power to throw both soul and body into hell.

But our highest goal should be to obey him out of love, not out of fear.

The Bible seems to condone both levels of obedience: fear and love.

russianorth · May 28, 2014

I feel like I should always be in fear but never am. Ultimately the bible does not say what exactly separates the goats from the sheep (other than a short list of things like witch craft and sexual immorality, etc).

So you have the 10 commandments and basicly the 10 commandments written differently in the NT. Then there is the issue of the rich guy giving away his stuff but fortunately most of us are wage slaves so that is not really applicable.

Goodbook · May 28, 2014

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Keep pressing on. We all fear him to begin with. But the holy spirit is given to our hearts. he will make that heart change in you. Believe Him. He did it for me.

Look up Romans 5:5

aiki · May 28, 2014

I think God accepts fearful obedience.

No, I don't think He does. And I showed you from Scripture why this is so. The "fear of the Lord" is a respectful awe, not the sort of thing you're describing of yourself. You sound more like what is described of the willfully wicked in Hebrews 10: "...a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation..." This sort of fear does not understand and has not entered into the love of God and as such does not fulfill the first and greatest commandment, which is to love the Lord your God with all of your being.

Selah.

Albion · May 28, 2014

aiki said:
No, I don't think He does. And I showed you from Scripture why this is so.

You're free to conclude whatever you want. In fact, I think your mind was already made up when you presented your question to us. Still, I am not sure that your conclusion here is correct.

If we look at all those verses, we can conclude that perfect love is preferable. Every theologian I can think of would say that, too. BUT you asked about salvation.

The very idea of God saving us deals with him saving us EVEN THOUGH WE ARE NOT DESERVING. That's the wonder of the Cross--that he loved us enough that GOD would pay the price himself for our deficiencies.

Therefore, I still think that a good case can be made for the idea that perfect love is better, more to be desired, than imperfect repentance, but that even imperfect repentance will result in salvation.

Jesse2014 · May 28, 2014

Albion said:
You're free to conclude whatever you want. In fact, I think your mind was already made up when you presented your question to us. Still, I am not sure that your conclusion here is correct.

If we look at all those verses, we can conclude that perfect love is preferable. Every theologian I can think of would say that, too. BUT you asked about salvation.

The very idea of God saving us deals with him saving us EVEN THOUGH WE ARE NOT DESERVING. That's the wonder of the Cross--that he loved us enough that GOD would pay the price himself for our deficiencies.

Therefore, I still think that a good case can be made for the idea that perfect love is better, more to be desired, than imperfect repentance, but that even imperfect repentance will result in salvation.

Actually, my mind isn't completely made up. My heart is still harden. But that is not your problem. I still have questions, but I don't want people to get mad at me. So I won't ask them. Thank you for answering.

Albion · May 28, 2014

Jesse2014 said:
Actually, my mind isn't completely made up. My heart is still harden. But that is not your problem. I still have questions, but I don't want people to get mad at me. So I won't ask them. Thank you for answering.

Big apologies to you, Jesse. For some reason, I was thinking that Aiki (whom I was addressing that message to, rightly or wrongly) was the one who had started the thread.

Aiki's mind seems made up, and the thinking is based upon those verses that he posted--but of course that does not have anything to do with your thinking. I'm sorry for the slip up.

Jesse2014 · May 28, 2014

aiki said:
No, I don't think He does. And I showed you from Scripture why this is so. The "fear of the Lord" is a respectful awe, not the sort of thing you're describing of yourself. You sound more like what is described of the willfully wicked in Hebrews 10: "...a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation..." This sort of fear does not understand and has not entered into the love of God and as such does not fulfill the first and greatest commandment, which is to love the Lord your God with all of your being.

Selah.

Yes, you did show me in scripture. And I see that you are right, which angers me more.

Albion · May 28, 2014

Jesse2014 said:
Yes, you did show me in scripture. And I see that you are right, which angers me more.

That confusion I caused by addressing my reply to the wrong person aside, I'd be interested to know what you thought of my answer a few posts back.

aiki · May 28, 2014

Mat 22:35 Then one of them, who was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Yes, my mind is quite made up. The Bible is very clear that God desires our love, not our fear. In fact, as the passage above clearly states, He commands us to love Him. And when we do not, we contravene His command and thus we sin. Fearful obedience has nothing to do with the kind of relationship into which God calls us all.

Can one be saved if one does not love God? I don't see how. Salvation is a Person, Jesus Christ, not a concept we possess or to which we give mental assent. (1Jn. 5:11, 12) Salvation is entering into fellowship with God through Jesus:

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom you were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that you also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

But how can you have fellowship with one who you fear will throw you into hell if you step wrong, who will "drop a ton of hurt" on you if you disobey? Quite simply, you cannot. Love and fellowship go hand-in-hand. It is for this reason the apostle Paul prayed for the Ephesians:

Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that you might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Selah.

aiki · May 28, 2014

I still have questions, but I don't want people to get mad at me. So I won't ask them.

I want to be clear that I am not mad in the least with you. Not at all. I think your question is very common and deserves a sound, biblical answer.

You didn't respond to my question about the many millions God has saved over the centuries. Why do you not think of them and thank God for His goodness to them? Why do you only see those who reject salvation and use that as grounds to hate God?

Selah.

Jesse2014 · May 28, 2014

aiki said:
I want to be clear that I am not mad in the least with you. Not at all. I think your question is very common and deserves a sound, biblical answer.

You didn't respond to my question about the many millions God has saved over the centuries. Why do you not think of them and thank God for His goodness to them? Why do you only see those who reject salvation and use that as grounds to hate God?

Selah.

That's a good question.

Also, I don't want to hate God. I see God as someone who destroys. My brain is wired to think about the cup being half empty, not half full. That's why I sometimes have a hard time thanking God.

I was reading in the old testament about two men who got into a fight, and one of them blasphemed God. They took the man and stoned him to death in front of the entire camp. I felt sorry for this man. I am wired towards feel sorry and empathy to poor, defenseless creatures even if they are guilty. God would have destroyed me back then. For anyone who acquitted the guilty was cut off from the community or God destroyed them.

Hell enters my mind a lot. I have read about it, not just from the Bible. I have heard the screams on youtube from recordings that people say come from hell (I don't if they are real or fake). however, it puts fear in me.

My anger comes from the fact that obeying God to avoid this punishment is unacceptable to God. I have to feel this way or that way when I obey him. I am naturally selfish. I can't obey out of love. It's like putting a knife to someone's throat and say give me your money. So the victim gives the offender the money out of fear. But the offender still gets mad and says "did you only give me your money out of fear?" Then he kills the victim anyways, because the victim was afraid when he gave him the money.

My salvation is being threaten if I continue in my sinful habits. Didn't Paul say in Hebrews 10:26 that if we continue in sin, we will no longer be forgiven. For this reason, I fear.

Jesse2014 · May 28, 2014

Albion said:
Big apologies to you, Jesse. For some reason, I was thinking that Aiki (whom I was addressing that message to, rightly or wrongly) was the one who had started the thread.

Aiki's mind seems made up, and the thinking is based upon those verses that he posted--but of course that does not have anything to do with your thinking. I'm sorry for the slip up.

That's OK. I really don't want to argue. I'm just trying to understand.

Albion · May 28, 2014

Jesse2014 said:
That's OK. I really don't want to argue. I'm just trying to understand.

Of course. What do you think of what I wrote about in post #11 (minus the first paragraph where I mistook Aiki for you)?

What do you think?

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