What Do You Think?

[Matthan]

Baptist and Anabaptists Only, Please

I have been troubled with some "dark" thoughts lately, and I would like to get other opinions from Baptists and Anabaptists. We all believe that it is our belief in Jesus as the Christ of God that causes God to grant each of us His grace unto eternal salvation. That, in a nutshell, is His promise to us.

And, I have no doubt that individuals who happen to adhere to other denominations also cling to that "doctrine", at least in part. But, and here is the crux of my question, what if those individuals also cling to what Scripture tells us (or fails to mention) are unscriptural principles and doctrines?

What if an individual believes that Jesus is the Christ of God, but also says prayers to Mary and other "saints"? Does she or he still have salvation?

What if an individual believes that Jesus is the Christ of God, but sometimes kneels before statues, images and other "spiritual" objects during prayer or spiritual meditation? Does she or he still have salvation?

What if an individual believes that Jesus is the Christ of God, but also believes that some form of water baptism is required for her or his salvation?

Personally, I consider prayer to be a distinct and extremely sacred form of worship of God. I also believe only He is worthy of receiving any and all prayers, or any and all worship. Jesus instructs us to worship only God (see Matthew 4:10, Luke 4:8). Paul exhorts us to avoid all leaven (sin/heresy) (see 1st Corinthians 5:6)

It goes without saying that God will judge each of us based on His Word (see John 12:48). Do you think that non-scriptural beliefs will be sufficient to keep someone out of Heaven? Do you think those individuals will one sad day hear Jesus tell them that He knows them not?

Matthan <J>< (Festina Lente)

 

[Gold Dragon]

It goes without saying that God will judge each of us based on His Word (see John 12:48). Do you think that non-scriptural beliefs will be sufficient to keep someone out of Heaven? Do you think those individuals will one sad day hear Jesus tell them that He knows them not?

Matthan <J>< (Festina Lente)

I won't address any of the specific beliefs you mention except to say that some of them may not be as non-scriptural as you have been taught that they are.

I believe there will be many individuals who will believe what we consider "right doctrine" or "scriptural beliefs" who will also hear Jesus tell them that He knows them not.

It is important to have right doctrine and not be lead astray by false teachings. False teachings may keep us out of heaven, but the NT message of hope is not that if we are able to answer withright teachings, that we will have eternal life. It is Christ and his sacrifice that gives us life. Jesus challenged the Pharisees constantly in this, that while their teachings were scriptural, the Pharisees often missed the point of those teachings and made them stumbling blocks for others. Let's not repeat their error.

Regarding the John passage, it is probably a good idea to include the context.

NASB - John 12:36-50

These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.

This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD , WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"

For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."

These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.

Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

And Jesus cried out and said,

"He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.

If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."

 

[ZiSunka]

The more I am in contact with Christians all around the world, the more I realize that culture soaks into Christianity everywhere and every form of it is not pure, but has practices in it that are not scriptural, even (gasp!) ours.

I think that if someone knows that salvation is by faith in Christ alone and has accepted Christ as their savior, but also does some cultural practice along with it, that doesn't negate the fact that they are saved by faith. Sure, they might pray to the saints, but we refuse to take Christ seriously when he says not to swear an oath because patriotism is culturally important to us. Sure, they might have icons in their homes, but we refuse to wash each other's feet because feet are considered icky in our culture.

Yes, they believe water baptism is essential for salvation, but we go to the other extreme and say that it is optional.

Neither of us is perfectly scriptural, we all do what we do largely because of the culture we live in, more than because it is scripturally correct.

When we cleaned out my grandmother's things after she died, you never saw a bigger collection of rosaries in your life. She had dozens of them. She had a statuette of mary on her dresser and gave similar ones as gifts to all her children. Two weeks before she died, my sister and I went to see her in the hospital and you never heard a better testimony of being saved by faith anywhere. When she was done, I had no doubt that she was saved by faith in Christ alone. At her funeral, the priest told us that she was presently in heaven because she had saving faith in Jesus Christ and that that was all that mattered. I believe that grandma is now in heaven, as is my catholic mother and my semi catholic father.

They were all saved by faith. Any other practices are extraneous to that fact.

If we start to question whether someone saved by faith is truly saved if they participate in cultural practices with pagan origins, then we all need to have a talk about Christmas trees and the celebration of easter.

 

[Matthan]

Thanks for the responses.

Matthan

 

[Fat]

Questions:
1) How many ways are there to the Father?
2) Is payer not worship?
1) How many ways are there to the Father?
3) If you pray to Mary are you not denying Christ?
1) How many ways are there to the Father?
4) If you ask a priest to forgive your and he tells you to worship Mary are you forgiven by the Father?

Some verses for thought.

2Pe 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Galatians 1 *

1:6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

1:7
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

1:9
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[PromiseSeeker]

What if an individual believes that Jesus is the Christ of God, but also says prayers to Mary and other "saints"? Does she or he still have salvation?

What if an individual believes that Jesus is the Christ of God, but sometimes kneels before statues, images and other "spiritual" objects during prayer or spiritual meditation? Does she or he still have salvation?

What if an individual believes that Jesus is the Christ of God, but also believes that some form of water baptism is required for her or his salvation?

Personally, I consider prayer to be a distinct and extremely sacred form of worship of God. I also believe only He is worthy of receiving any and all prayers, or any and all worship. Jesus instructs us to worship only God (see Matthew 4:10, Luke 4:8). Paul exhorts us to avoid all leaven (sin/heresy) (see 1st Corinthians 5:6)

It goes without saying that God will judge each of us based on His Word (see John 12:48). Do you think that non-scriptural beliefs will be sufficient to keep someone out of Heaven? Do you think those individuals will one sad day hear Jesus tell them that He knows them not?

Matthan <J>< (Festina Lente)

I believe that if you are truly saved by the grace of God through faith in Him, you won't want to practice any of these types of "prayers" because you will realize that they aren't the "true" way. In saying that, I'm not saying that they will "unsave" you, but that you won't desire these things because only HE is worthy of our prayers and worship.

 

[ZiSunka]

Promise seeker,

Are you sure you practice Biblical Christianity perfectly and without any trace of paganisms or cultural seasonings at all?