What Do You Think The Church Is Today?

[Trogool]

ya it is addressed to god saying, [ paraphrased ] thanks God, praise Constantine for saving us.

Um, are you reading the same thing as me?

Having seen the figure of the Cross in the heavens,
And like Paul not having received his call from men, O Lord,
Your apostle among rulers, the Emperor Constantine,
Has been set by Your hand as ruler over the Imperial City
That he preserved in peace for many years,
Through the prayers of the Theotokos, O only lover of mankind.


*stares blankly*

Not seeing where it says anything other than "thank you for setting Constantine over us to preserve peace for many years".

you know what a hymn is right?

A song in praise of something, according to my dictionary.

 

[incor]

-

 

[incor]

-

 

[incor]

incor,

I think I have a idea of what your saying, and if I read you right, I totally agree that churches need to not focus on money and if they get money they need to use it to better others lives.

not only the $ issue, its moral state. america-most gospelized nation on earth--churches evrywher but w/50%(the church) divorce rate? light? mor like missing bulb.

TIME TO WAIL!!...n REPENT!!!...JUDGEMENT SEEMS OR IS JST AROUND THE CORNER!!! DONT B ONE THAT FALLS AWAY!!! 2 thes. 2:3 ...falling away...

WARNING!!... get right w/God whomever u r.

 

[Trogool]

not only the $ issue, its moral state. america-most gospelized nation on earth--churches evrywher but w/50% divorce rate? light? mor like missing bulb.

TIME TO WAIL!!!!!n REPENT!!!...JUDGEMENT SEEMS OR IS JST AROUND THE CORNER!!! DONT B ONE THAT FALLS AWAY!!! 2 thes. 2:3 ...falling away...

WARNING!!... get right w/God whomever u r.

We are not the most "gospelized" nation on earth by a long shot.

 

[hudechek]

Um, are you reading the same thing as me?

Having seen the figure of the Cross in the heavens,
And like Paul not having received his call from men, O Lord,
Your apostle among rulers, the Emperor Constantine,
Has been set by Your hand as ruler over the Imperial City
That he preserved in peace for many years,
Through the prayers of the Theotokos, O only lover of mankind.


*stares blankly*

Not seeing where it says anything other than "thank you for setting Constantine over us to preserve peace for many years".



A song in praise of something, according to my dictionary.

"That he [Constantine] preserved in peace for many years,"

that was Gods work not Constantine, that was direct praise to Constantine for protecting people, when it was God not him. then the second line.

"Through the prayers of the Theotokos, O only lover of mankind."

that wouldn't even be possible seeing as Mary was dead by then. so he couldn't have received her prayers. now If you want to use the word in reference to Constantine's mother that wouldn't work ether seeings as "Theotokos" is greek for, the God bearer. and he was defiantly not Jesus.


also Incor,

trogool has a point we are far from the most gospilized look are the western country
[also if you would please spell out full words and attempt grammar, that would help reading a lot
not saying I'm the best but]

 

[branchofthevine]

The Church is as it has always been. However, what we think the Church is and what the Church really is are two different things. It is not the business organizations today or the Spiritually dead people meeting together to continue long tradition, but the Church is the body of Christ, those who are remaining with Jesus and in the Spirit of the Sonship of Jesus, who are being continually filled. This body is not found in large numbers. There are a few over here and a few over there. They are known by their life and how they are perfect yet being perfected in all things being co-heirs with Christ they live in that heavenly state filled with meekness and humility of the sufferings of Jesus and tribulations of this life. They love one another and share the love of Christ with all. Yes the Church is still here exactly as it was suppose to be, but we have misunderstood what the Church is (generally) in North America today.

 

[hudechek]

branchofthevine,

are you a organic church believer? that is kinda what I am getting from what you are saying.

 

[Trogool]

"That he [Constantine] preserved in peace for many years,"

that was Gods work not Constantine, that was direct praise to Constantine for protecting people, when it was God not him. then the second line.

Um, yeah, because an able ruler bears some responsibility for the nation he rules. That seems rather axiomatic. Your assertion that St. Constantine doesn't deserve any credit for the stability of Rome is rather strange. The entire hymn is a praise to God for St. Constantine, who is an exemplar of the Christian faith.

"Through the prayers of the Theotokos, O only lover of mankind."

that wouldn't even be possible seeing as Mary was dead by then.

Huh? No, she wasn't. She still isn't, either.

so he couldn't have received her prayers.

God can't receive prayers?

now If you want to use the word in reference to Constantine's mother that wouldn't work ether seeings as "Theotokos" is greek for, the God bearer. and he was defiantly not Jesus.

You seem a trifle confused. The Theotokos is Mary, the Mother of God. Not St. Helena, and it in no way indicates St. Helena.

also Incor,

trogool has a point we are far from the most gospilized look are the western country
[also if you would please spell out full words and attempt grammar, that would help reading a lot
not saying I'm the best but]

 

[hudechek]

Um, yeah, because an able ruler bears some responsibility for the nation he rules. That seems rather axiomatic. Your assertion that St. Constantine doesn't deserve any credit for the stability of Rome is rather strange. The entire hymn is a praise to God for St. Constantine, who is an exemplar of the Christian faith.

If you really believe he was the saint you say he was so be it, my opinion is opposed, because exemplar he was not! if you really want me to get in to the meat of who Constantine was just say so.... ill be glad to tell you who he was and what he contributed to church

Huh? No, she wasn't. She still isn't, either.

Do you not under stand how Century's work?

A century is 100 years.....

so by your logic Mary being about the age of 15 at the birth of jesus,
with her being about 48 at the time of Jesus' crucifixion "1 AD"
[fast forward to 272 AD]
Constantine is born and Mary has now lived miraculously to be 320
[fast forward to 306 AD]
Constantine now 34 becomes Augustus marking the year Mary is now 364!
[fast forward six years]
it is 6 years [312 AD] later and Constantine is appointed Caeser, Mary is now 370!
[fast forward 12 years]
it is now 324 AD and Constantine is now Emperor! and Mary is now 382, holy smokes!

Mary historical died at about 64 she sure as crap was not alive then to pray for the man..... no one was that old since the OT.

I'm not debating whether she is alive in heaven (which is what you meant), but she isn't alive on earth.

God can't receive prayers?

prayer is a earthy thing and there is no need for it in heaven because it is a form of communication between humans and him in heaven you just talk to him not pray to him so no, God can't receive pray for people who have "DIED"
and went to heaven.

You seem a trifle confused. The Theotokos is Mary, the Mother of God. Not St. Helena, and it in no way indicates St. Helena.

you seem to suffer from some sort of disability were you don't read what i actually say..... not only did I make it abundantly clear I knew the Theotokos is Mary I even stated at the end of the paragraph what the word literally translates to in Greek! Not to mention I said it would not work! not only are you horrible at contextualization but your knowledge of Constantine is superficial at best, my guess is that you grew up catholic and the knowledge you have is based from their teaching which would never bring Constantine in to question.

P.S. St helena is not a Saint she was an idolatrous women hell bent on finding the cross and nails of Jesus which she believed had "special powers"

 

[Trogool]

If you really believe he was the saint you say he was so be it, my opinion is opposed, because exemplar he was not! if you really want me to get in to the meat of who Constantine was just say so.... ill be glad to tell you who he was and what he contributed to church

Ok.

Do you not under stand how Century's work?

A century is 100 years.....

so by your logic Mary being about the age of 15 at the birth of jesus,
with her being about 48 at the time of Jesus' crucifixion "1 AD"
[fast forward to 272 AD]
Constantine is born and Mary has now lived miraculously to be 320
[fast forward to 306 AD]
Constantine now 34 becomes Augustus marking the year Mary is now 364!
[fast forward six years]
it is 6 years [312 AD] later and Constantine is appointed Caeser, Mary is now 370!
[fast forward 12 years]
it is now 324 AD and Constantine is now Emperor! and Mary is now 382, holy smokes!

Mary historical died at about 64 she sure as crap was not alive then to pray for the man..... no one was that old since the OT.

I'm not debating whether she is alive in heaven (which is what you meant), but she isn't alive on earth.

Make sense to me, what about it?

prayer is a earthy thing and there is no need for it in heaven because it is a form of communication between humans and him in heaven you just talk to him not pray to him so no, God can't receive pray for people who have "DIED"
and went to heaven.

Um, that isn't what prayer is. "Pray" is a synonym for "ask", basically, with a sense of formality. In a modern sense, a British citizen accused of treason might be said to pray to the Queen for mercy. Or someone bringing a lawsuit before a court prays for the court to see justice served.

you seem to suffer from some sort of disability

Really? Grow up man.

were you don't read what i actually say..... not only did I make it abundantly clear I knew the Theotokos is Mary I even stated at the end of the paragraph what the word literally translates to in Greek!

Then why were you rambling on about St. Constantine's mother? To be deliberately confusing?

Not to mention I said it would not work! not only are you horrible at contextualization but your knowledge of Constantine is superficial at best,

Stop being so sophomoric, these insults aren't getting you anywhere.

my guess is that you grew up catholic

Nope, nice try.

and the knowledge you have is based from their teaching which would never bring Constantine in to question.

More ad hominems, and based on the above, incorrect.

P.S. St helena is not a Saint she was an idolatrous women hell bent

I hope you're joking, what a ridiculous thing to say. You certainly don't hesitate to judge Christians you've never met and lived centuries before you in completely different cultures.

on finding the cross and nails of Jesus which she believed had "special powers"

Doesn't seem too controversial.

 

[hudechek]

Make sense to me, what about it?

your kidding right you said Mary is able to pray when she is dead..... that is the point I am making. even if the hymn isn't worshiping Constantine, the logistical factor of it is wrong.

Um, that isn't what prayer is. "Pray" is a synonym for "ask", basically, with a sense of formality. In a modern sense, a British citizen accused of treason might be said to pray to the Queen for mercy. Or someone bringing a lawsuit before a court prays for the court to see justice served.

Pray is not a Synonym for ask, where are you getting your information??

Pray - to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).

straight from the dictionary. pray can include asking some thing but it isn't for asking, and you sure as heck don't pray to a person because there not a deity.

Really? Grow up man.

from what doing what you have been doing?

Then why were you rambling on about St. Constantine's mother? To be deliberately confusing?

possibly, to offer a perspective into some one who could have possible thought the Theotokos was Constantine mother. nothing I said was confusing.
your just trying to make me look stupid by breaking everything I say up in to bits that make since for your point and explain it away.

Stop being so sophomoric, these insults aren't getting you anywhere.

I'm stating a fact your reading my words sentence by sentence not even considering what i had to say to preface it. Bad contextualization is what makes people interpret the bible wrong and had the american government declaring a bible verse of defiance to god as our new corner stone of living.

Nope, nice try.

well so far your dogma look pretty catholic

I hope you're joking, what a ridiculous thing to say. You certainly don't hesitate to judge Christians you've never met and lived centuries before you in completely different cultures.

Or I just study the lives of these people....... and defiantly not joking.

Doesn't seem too controversial.

Yes it does...... why on earth would the cross have special powers.. let alone what gave her the idea that they did? i don't know maybe satan?

 

[Trogool]

your kidding right you said Mary is able to pray when she is dead.....

Mary isn't dead, though.

that is the point I am making. even if the hymn isn't worshiping Constantine, the logistical factor of it is wrong.

The logistical factor? How can logistics even be an issue in a song that takes maybe 1 minute to sing if you draw it out?

Pray is not a Synonym for ask, where are you getting your information??

Pray - to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).

straight from the dictionary. pray can include asking some thing but it isn't for asking, and you sure as heck don't pray to a person because there not a deity.

Nice job, you managed to use a dictionary, which is more than most. Unfortunately for you, I also can use a dictionary. Lets see the rest of the definition you conveniently omitted:

pray [prey]  
Example Sentences Origin
pray   [prey] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2.
to offer (a prayer).
3.
to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
4.
to make earnest petition to (a person).
5.
to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.



Now, just for kicks, lets look at a thesaurus.

pray [prey]  
Example Sentences
Main Entry: pray  [prey] Show IPA
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: plead; call upon for help, answer
Synonyms: adjure, appeal, ask, beseech, brace, commune with, crave, cry for, entreat, implore, importune, invocate, invoke, petition, recite, request, say, solicit, sue, supplicate, urge


So, it looks like I'm right.

from what doing what you have been doing?

Yes, you will find that most people generally don't respond well to being insulted.

possibly, to offer a perspective into some one who could have possible thought the Theotokos was Constantine mother. nothing I said was confusing.

Except it patently was, since it confused me.

your just trying to make me look stupid by breaking everything I say up in to bits that make since for your point and explain it away.

Um, that is kind of how discussions work. Break things down and address it point by point.

I'm stating a fact your reading my words sentence by sentence not even considering what i had to say to preface it. Bad contextualization is what makes people interpret the bible wrong and had the american government declaring a bible verse of defiance to god as our new corner stone of living.

If you say so.

well so far your dogma look pretty catholic

That's nice.

Or I just study the lives of these people....... and defiantly not joking.

How sad. St. Helena is praying for you and me, you know, and you malign her as idolatrous.

Yes it does...... why on earth would the cross have special powers.. let alone what gave her the idea that they did?

Um, the fact that that sort of thing is Biblical. St. Peter's cloak and chains, the bones of Elisha in 2nd Kings, the hem of Christ's robe. And those are just the example in the Bible, not even looking at Church history.

i don't know maybe satan?

An idea seen before in Scriptures. God didn't seem to think too highly of it.


"[21] And in his name the Gentiles shall hope. [22] Then was offered to him one possessed with a devil, blind and dumb: and he healed him, so that he spoke and saw. [23] And all the multitudes were amazed, and said: Is not this the son of David? [24] But the Pharisees hearing it, said: This man casteth not out the devils but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. [25] And Jesus knowing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.

[26] And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself: how then shall his kingdom stand? [27] And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. [28] But if I by the Spirit of God cast out devils, then is the kingdom of God come upon you. [29] Or how can any one enter into the house of the strong, and rifle his goods, unless he first bind the strong? and then he will rifle his house. [30] He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.

[31] Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. [32] And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. [33] Either make the tree good and its fruit good: or make the tree evil, and its fruit evil. For by the fruit the tree is known. [34] O generation of vipers, how can you speak good things, whereas you are evil? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. [35] A good man out of a good treasure bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of an evil treasure bringeth forth evil things."

--Matthew 12

 

[hudechek]

Mary isn't dead, though.

then please enlighten me as to were she is if not in heaven?

The logistical factor? How can logistics even be an issue in a song that takes maybe 1 minute to sing if you draw it out?

how can it not?

Nice job, you managed to use a dictionary, which is more than most. Unfortunately for you, I also can use a dictionary. Lets see the rest of the definition you conveniently omitted:

pray [prey]  
Example Sentences Origin
pray   [prey] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2.
to offer (a prayer).
3.
to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
4.
to make earnest petition to (a person).
5.
to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.



Now, just for kicks, lets look at a thesaurus.

pray [prey]  
Example Sentences
Main Entry: pray  [prey] Show IPA
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: plead; call upon for help, answer
Synonyms: adjure, appeal, ask, beseech, brace, commune with, crave, cry for, entreat, implore, importune, invocate, invoke, petition, recite, request, say, solicit, sue, supplicate, urge


So, it looks like I'm right.

actually were both right.... and my definition encompassed asking as well so my definition didn't "conveniently" leave any thing out.

Yes, you will find that most people generally don't respond well to being insulted.

you should take your own advice then.

Um, that is kind of how discussions work. Break things down and address it point by point.

I agree if it is with in context, and not out of context.

How sad. St. Helena is praying for you and me, you know, and you malign her as idolatrous.

she is dead of the flesh! just like mary! they do not PRAY! THEY SPEAK DIRECTLY TO GOD! not to mention they are out side of our realm of time they can see everything we do now and know our actions through our whole life!
pray is rhetorical for them! and she was an idolatrous she was consumed with finding sacred relics! Constantine gave he unlimited finances to continue her obsession!

Um, the fact that that sort of thing is Biblical. St. Peter's cloak and chains, the bones of Elisha in 2nd Kings, the hem of Christ's robe. And those are just the example in the Bible, not even looking at Church history.

tell me scripture were says the clock and chains are sacred or have special power...
and as for the bones that was old testament i can't tell you why it happened but that doesn't make them sacred by any means also there is no account of the cross part of any miracle after the death of Jesus.

An idea seen before in Scriptures. God didn't seem to think too highly of it.

"[21] And in his name the Gentiles shall hope. [22] Then was offered to him one possessed with a devil, blind and dumb: and he healed him, so that he spoke and saw. [23] And all the multitudes were amazed, and said: Is not this the son of David? [24] But the Pharisees hearing it, said: This man casteth not out the devils but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. [25] And Jesus knowing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.

[26] And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself: how then shall his kingdom stand? [27] And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. [28] But if I by the Spirit of God cast out devils, then is the kingdom of God come upon you. [29] Or how can any one enter into the house of the strong, and rifle his goods, unless he first bind the strong? and then he will rifle his house. [30] He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.

[31] Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. [32] And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. [33] Either make the tree good and its fruit good: or make the tree evil, and its fruit evil. For by the fruit the tree is known. [34] O generation of vipers, how can you speak good things, whereas you are evil? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. [35] A good man out of a good treasure bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of an evil treasure bringeth forth evil things."

--Matthew 12

why did you Incorporate verse 21? And this is talking about casting out demons and speaking against the holy spirit and Jesus. I don't see the validity. I am talking about "st" helena and her idea that the cross could heal with was never stated in the bible, and that it was an idea that could have come from satan.

 

[Trogool]

then please enlighten me as to were she is if not in heaven?

She is in heaven, that is my entire point.

how can it not?

Fine, explain to me the numerous logistical difficulties in a short hymn of a single verse.

actually were both right.... and my definition encompassed asking as well so my definition didn't "conveniently" leave any thing out.

Except for the fact that you only copied definition 1, and not 2, 3, 4 or 5.

you should take your own advice then.

I am, yet I haven't accused you of having a learning disability.

I agree if it is with in context, and not out of context.

Sweet.

she is dead of the flesh!

I prefer the term "reposed". All Christians cessation of biological functioning is merely temporary, after all.

just like mary!

Do you have evidence that Mary is currently bodily dead? Just curious, because the majority of Christians believe she isn't.

they do not PRAY! THEY SPEAK DIRECTLY TO GOD!

You assume they can't do both for some reason?

not to mention they are out side of our realm of time they can see everything we do now and know our actions through our whole life!

That's pretty neat.

pray is rhetorical for them!

That doesn't make sense.

and she was an idolatrous she was consumed with finding sacred relics! Constantine gave he unlimited finances to continue her obsession!

And a good thing too. God has worked many miracles through the True Cross to the glory of God and His Church.

With his mother Helen, Constantine today brings to light the precious Cross: The shame of unbelievers,
The weapon of Orthodox Christians against their enemies,
For it is manifest for us as a great and fearful sign in struggle!




Also, your attempts to psychoanalyze St. Helena are rather truly bizarre. You never met, or have conversed with her. It is offensive purely in that regard, much less in terms of a great Christian saint.

tell me scripture were says the clock and chains are sacred or have special power...

2 kings 13:20-13:21 KJV - And Elisha died, and they buried him. - Bible Gateway

Acts 19:11-12 NIV - God did extraordinary miracles through - Bible Gateway

Sirach 48:14 DRA - No word could overcome him, and after - Bible Gateway

Jesus healing the bleeding woman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and as for the bones that was old testament i can't tell you why it happened but that doesn't make them sacred

"Yeah, God used them to preform a miracle, namely raising the dead, but it directly contradicts my positions so I'll dismiss it for no reason".

by any means also there is no account of the cross part of any miracle after the death of Jesus.

Really? Here's a page with a few miracles of the True Cross. The Legend of the True Cross - Olga's Gallery

why did you Incorporate verse 21?

Because it was in the paragraph and I didn't care enough to not excise it.

And this is talking about casting out demons and speaking against the holy spirit and Jesus.

Um, yeah, well, you just suggested that the miracles of the True Cross should be attributed to Satan.

I don't see the validity. I am talking about "st" helena and her idea that the cross could heal with was never stated in the bible,

Who cares? Many things aren't stated in the Bible.

and that it was an idea that could have come from satan.

 

[hudechek]

She is in heaven, that is my entire point.

and my entire point is there is no prayer in heaven. because they talk to God face to face. celestial [people in heaven] beings don't need prayer for the reason of their there with God.

Fine, explain to me the numerous logistical difficulties in a short hymn of a single verse.

I never said numerous but,

one] there is no praise to God for helping Constantine through his years to keep things stable.

two] with my understand of the bible and pray the Virgin Mary doesn't pray because it would do no good.

Except for the fact that you only copied definition 1, and not 2, 3, 4 or 5.

because that definition encompassed all the others.

I am, yet I haven't accused you of having a learning disability.

but I am, a oh so confused and judgmental person.

Do you have evidence that Mary is currently bodily dead? Just curious, because the majority of Christians believe she isn't.

well other then history books and other resources saying she had a burial, based on the accounts of people around her.

You assume they can't do both for some reason?

I think this is the best why of putting it

Prayer is very much for our benefit here on earth. By that I mean, we draw closer to God by praying. He already knows what we need. But we come to have a better understanding of His character and develop a closer walk with Him through the process of prayer. In heaven, there will be no physical want and no need of such development. Everyone there will be in perfect peace and have no need whatsoever. It is hard to fathom that the one thing theoretically capable of upsetting us then (i.e., observation of the troubles of loved ones on earth) will in fact be allowed to do so. - Bob L.

That doesn't make sense.

in my view of them functioning of our temporal dimension is sound, [ which im fairly curtain it is ] then them being able to know weather or not we go to heaven or hell in the end would make prayer completely irrelevant because they can't change the out come.

And a good thing too. God has worked many miracles through the True Cross to the glory of God and His Church.

With his mother Helen, Constantine today brings to light the precious Cross: The shame of unbelievers,
The weapon of Orthodox Christians against their enemies,
For it is manifest for us as a great and fearful sign in struggle!

im not saying the cross isn't real...

Also, your attempts to psychoanalyze St. Helena are rather truly bizarre. You never met, or have conversed with her. It is offensive purely in that regard, much less in terms of a great Christian saint.

but the account of people closet to her says that, that was her personality.

2 kings 13:20-13:21 KJV - And Elisha died, and they buried him. - Bible Gateway

Acts 19:11-12 NIV - God did extraordinary miracles through - Bible Gateway

Sirach 48:14 DRA - No word could overcome him, and after - Bible Gateway

Jesus healing the bleeding woman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

first of I am disregarding the sirach passage.
I find no validity in scriptures that are out side the common bible.
[it is like the book of Mormon in my eyes]

second they weren't sacred objects they functioned much like the bones a one time deal nothing more.

as for Jesus and the bleeder, i have no explanation as to why her touching the robe healed her other then the garb was on Jesus' body and that could have been the reason.

Really? Here's a page with a few miracles of the True Cross. The Legend of the True Cross - Olga's Gallery

I'm going to say one thing about this
Legend being the key word here makes it so
I don't think that this has enough weight to make your point.

Um, yeah, well, you just suggested that the miracles of the True Cross should be attributed to Satan.

I never said anything of the sort, I said the idea put in Helena's mind of it having healing power could be attributed to Satan
I don't know if the cross healed any one or not there is no official documentation to my knowledge only legends.

Who cares? Many things aren't stated in the Bible.

that doesn't mean there true, I'm not even saying I'm right, I'm just presented with facts and look for the answer the facts give me. humans are fallible I get that, I'm just saying facts point in a different way then what your saying. the idea of miracles happening to people by touching the cross may of happened but only catholic and western orthodox people really hold on to that doctrine. so honestly I don't know from the actual doing of miracle stand point and I'm not debating that because no one really has a biblical or factual bases of the events described, I'm debating how the idea come to Helena. at this point any way.

 

[Trogool]

and my entire point is there is no prayer in heaven. because they talk to God face to face. celestial [people in heaven] beings don't need prayer for the reason of their there with God.

Why not?

I never said numerous but,

one] there is no praise to God for helping Constantine through his years to keep things stable.

Um, that is what the entire hymn is. The whole thing is addressed to God. Admittedly in a literal sense it is just stating the facts, but the thanks is implied.

two] with my understand of the bible and pray the Virgin Mary doesn't pray because it would do no good.

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

But the prayers of the Mother of God are very effective. It is wonderful to have her as an intercessor.

because that definition encompassed all the others.

Ok, fine.

well other then history books and other resources saying she had a burial, based on the accounts of people around her.

And then was bodily assumed, as was prophesied in Psalm 132:7-8. After all, nobody has the Mother of God's relics. We have an embarrassing number of duplicates of various saints' heads and so forth. But the most we have of Mary is her belt, which is kept on Mt. Athos.

I think this is the best why of putting it

Prayer is very much for our benefit here on earth. By that I mean, we draw closer to God by praying. He already knows what we need. But we come to have a better understanding of His character and develop a closer walk with Him through the process of prayer. In heaven, there will be no physical want and no need of such development. Everyone there will be in perfect peace and have no need whatsoever. It is hard to fathom that the one thing theoretically capable of upsetting us then (i.e., observation of the troubles of loved ones on earth) will in fact be allowed to do so. - Bob L.

And I very much disagree.

in my view of them functioning of our temporal dimension is sound, [ which im fairly curtain it is ] then them being able to know weather or not we go to heaven or hell in the end would make prayer completely irrelevant because they can't change the out come.

That is kind of the entire point of prayer... Praying because it is in God's hands, not yours.

im not saying the cross isn't real...

Well, that's good.

but the account of people closet to her says that, that was her personality.

So? None of us are literally perfect. And any first person account is going to end up tainted with some politics, seeing as she was an Empress.

first of I am disregarding the sirach passage.
I find no validity in scriptures that are out side the common bible.
[it is like the book of Mormon in my eyes]

What on earth? Sirach isn't outside the common Bible.

second they weren't sacred objects they functioned much like the bones a one time deal nothing more.

I'm watching you move the goalposts and I find it rather amusing. It doesn't count if it's a "one time deal" now? How many miracles do you need to count, according to you? Two? Four? Twelve? A couple dozen?

as for Jesus and the bleeder, i have no explanation as to why her touching the robe healed her other then the garb was on Jesus' body and that could have been the reason.

Yep.

I'm going to say one thing about this
Legend being the key word here makes it so
I don't think that this has enough weight to make your point.

You are welcome to sift through the dozens if not hundreds of other examples that pop up on Google if you like https://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=....,cf.osb&fp=df41ee306381e0bb&biw=1180&bih=728

I never said anything of the sort, I said the idea put in Helena's mind of it having healing power could be attributed to Satan

I don't know if the cross healed any one or not there is no official documentation to my knowledge only legends.

There are several. The most well known one is when St. Helena uncovered a bunch of crosses in Jerusalem, the bishop, St. Macarius, recommended a test to determine which was the True Cross. A sick woman was found and each the crosses touched to her in turn. Finally, one was touched to her and she sprang to her feet instantly healed.

that doesn't mean there true, I'm not even saying I'm right, I'm just presented with facts and look for the answer the facts give me. humans are fallible I get that, I'm just saying facts point in a different way then what your saying. the idea of miracles happening to people by touching the cross may of happened but only catholic and western orthodox people really hold on to that doctrine. so honestly I don't know from the actual doing of miracle stand point and I'm not debating that because no one really has a biblical or factual bases of the events described, I'm debating how the idea come to Helena. at this point any way.

But we don't have any basis for speculating. For all we know, she struggled with alcoholism and it was a random idea she got after one too many cups of wine.

 

[hudechek]

Why not?

why is there not prayer in heaven? that is what I have been explaining this whole time. actually i think i answered the way not later and you disagree with it.

Um, that is what the entire hymn is. The whole thing is addressed to God. Admittedly in a literal sense it is just stating the facts, but the thanks is implied.

im not saying it isn't addressed to God or not saying thanks to him, i said that in a earlier response. what i don't like it that it feel tome that to much credit is given to Constantine and Mary and not God other then putting him in power.

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

But the prayers of the Mother of God are very effective. It is wonderful to have her as an intercessor.

I hope your not saying that if Mary prays for us that her prayers are better then our prayers for one another.

And then was bodily assumed, as was prophesied in Psalm 132:7-8. After all, nobody has the Mother of God's relics. We have an embarrassing number of duplicates of various saints' heads and so forth. But the most we have of Mary is her belt, which is kept on Mt. Athos.

no one has the mother of God relics probably because no one can find them from my understanding they didn't bury her any old place. not saying she was buried in a holy place but rather i think that the people understood people were going to look for her body and sell it on the black market if they could.

And I very much disagree.

why is that?

That is kind of the entire point of prayer... Praying because it is in God's hands, not yours.

well that would destroy the purpose of freewill....
and im referring solely to celestial beings and pray not the human need for it.
[just making that clear]

So? None of us are literally perfect. And any first person account is going to end up tainted with some politics, seeing as she was an Empress.

so by that logic we need to not read the bible.

What on earth? Sirach isn't outside the common Bible.

it isn't in the common bible, it isn't the book of Ecclesiastes.

I'm watching you move the goalposts and I find it rather amusing. It doesn't count if it's a "one time deal" now? How many miracles do you need to count, according to you? Two? Four? Twelve? A couple dozen?

the one miracle doesn't make it a sacred object. scared in the since it was used for a special purpose. but not in the since that they were sought out as a relic.

You are welcome to sift through the dozens if not hundreds of other examples that pop up on Google if you like https://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=....,cf.osb&fp=df41ee306381e0bb&biw=1180&bih=728

ill check it out

But we don't have any basis for speculating. For all we know, she struggled with alcoholism and it was a random idea she got after one too many cups of wine.

very true.

 

[incor]

Not because two of my pastors where put into this video but if you watch this... This is unfortunately what majority of the church today is. Unfortunately...


(I WAS going to post a video link but apparently I am too much of a newbie to do so. SO..... go to youtube... and search for "Wake Up Church" And watch the first video... Its such a STRONG compilation of what the church today is... unfortunately for most places)

!!!.....wt can be said?...rom. 6:1-2 ....shall we continue to sin that grace may abound?...GOD FORBID!!..

MAY WE ALL TRULY REPENT AND FOLLOW AFTER GOD

john 5:14-..SIN NO MORE LEST A WORST THING COME UPON THEE.
jude 1:23-and others save w/fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
2 cor.5:11..knowing therfor the TERROR of the Lord we persuade men..
heb.3:11-while it is said, today if u hear His voice, harden not ur hearts, as in the provocation.
ezek.33:5...took not WARNING, his blood shall be upon him. but he that taketh WARNING shall deliver his soul.
heb.26-27..for if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. but a certain fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries.