What do you think of this video?

[Introverted1293]

Disagree. He appeals to the basic instincts of humanity for his arguments. The idea that evil can only be defeated by worse evil is why the world has so very many wars, bad governments and angry populations.

However, there are two ways of looking at the issue of capital punishment. The first way is for those who choose to follow Jesus and practice His teachings. For them, the only question they should consider on the issue is "Does capital punishment demonstrate self-sacrificing loving behavior?" Try as I might, I can't find any argument in which killing a human being...regardless of how much they may 'deserve it'...can be described as loving behavior toward the person being put to death.

The other way to look at it is a secular way in which pragmatic, logical and legal processes are followed regardless of any religious or spiritual concepts. This method often times simply follows long tradition and stuffy rules of evidence in which...in America at least...the system only promises that each person gets a 'fair' trial which follows all the rules. It does NOT promise that justice will be served or only truly guilty people will be convicted.

Despite what the gentleman in the video says, America's most secure prisons are virtually escape proof. The needs of society to be protected from truly evil people can be reasonably ensured with a simple life in prison sentence. And should someone be found later as having to been falsely convicted, it is easier to say, "Oops, sorry." when the person is still alive.

Being a follower of Jesus is not always an easy path. Sometimes one needs to take a stand which is not popular with friends, family, or even one's own culture.

This is also thought provoking .

I have no idea how God views the death penalty to be perfectly honest. I don't know what is in the mind of God. I looked in the Bible and it does not seem to cover capital punishment. But people have their interpretations of what scripture says. I am not at all saying that you are wrong. You may be influenced by the Holy Spirit by that attitude. But I still can't help but believe in capital punishment, even though I know that I could be wrong.

I also understand what you are saying. The Bible talks about forgiving just like Jesus forgave us. But I don't know if that means we should not seek justice. And we all have different ideas of what justice is. Even Christians have different ideas of what justice is.

There are many Christians who are very strong and who do not want the death penalty. When Dolan shot up the Baptist Church, many Christians lost their loved ones. And still they did not want the death penalty for Dolan. They talked about forgiveness. So there are many strong Christians out there who still will forgive even when their loved ones were murdered. So, many of them will probably agree with you.

But I have to admit that my views are secular. I don't think it is possible to incorporate spiritual law into the secular law. Because if we do, we would have to arrest those who gossip. We would have to arrest those who feel hatred towards a brother. I just can't make it work. So I have separated my spiritual views and my secular views.

In my opinion, death (non-painful death) is an appropriate punishment for murder. It prevents them from killing again. I could be wrong about this, but these are the stories that I here from people. Murderers still murder in jail. You just have to listen to their stories. A lot of people will suggest that they should just separate them from the population. But they don't always have the beds for them. There are jail cells that are meant for isolating prisoners when they misbehave, but it is not meant for permanent isolation. Every time a prisoner asks to be isolated from people, they are told that they don't have room to isolate them.

But they do isolate child molesters and transsexuals. So, maybe they could find the room to isolate murderers, I don't know.

And as for sacrificial love, that only works if people of God was to go there and minister to murderers. Locking them in jail and throwing away the key and then forgetting about them doesn't seem like sacrificial love to me, which you may not be saying that they should do. You may be very well suggesting that murderers should be getting ministered. And I can respect that if that is what you are saying.

But sometimes it would seem to me that saying no to death penalty simply because it violates somebody's beliefs maybe putting other people's lives in jeopardy. There was a protest against the death penalty in Arkansas. And I still don't know the results of that, but if they got their way and they did not execute the prisoners, they might kill somebody else in jail. But I recognize that I could be wrong. I know that right and wrong should not be based on how I feel. But I don't know if the death penalty is right or wrong in the eyes of God.

As for following Christ, yes, you are right, it is hard to follow Christ. It is hard because when someone hurts us, we want revenge. We want them to suffer, even though Christ taught us to turn the other cheek. But it is also hard because Christians have a different views on what it means to follow Christ. Many Christians do believe in the death penalty, but many don't believe in it. And if one has a different beliefs then the other, Christians start telling each other that they are not true followers of Jesus Christ. And that kind of makes it hard as well.

 

[Introverted1293]

Eh, I think his arguments around murdering innocents are disingenuous. He says its virtually impossible to achieve a false conviction but there are countless cases where people have been falsely convicted and in recent memory too. Even if you were to set abnormally high standards of evidence technology has progressed to the point where fabricating video and photographic documentation is relatively easy.

I looked at the comments under his video, there're a lot of people advocating for torturing murderers for a lifetime before killing them... which gave me a daily dose of internet sadness, but also suggests that what they think is most important is revenge. I believe the justice system exists for justice and reform not revenge, and by killing convicts you take away any chance that they can be reformed.

That maybe true.

I don't believe revenge as well. But how do you reform a murderer without the potential of him killing another person?

But you could be right.

 

[Introverted1293]

I'm thinking logically. There is no immediate inference from "murder" to..... anything except unlawful killing. But from "unlawful killing" one can't infer death penalty, or its opposite. So the OP introduces some elements of processing (feelings are considered, a scale of more and more penalties for more severe crimes is introduced).

Any mathematicians here?

Is moral reasoning polynomial?

Thank you very much. I will watch the video.

 

[Introverted1293]

I like the way subtle background ambience and the animation is used to create a feeling of dread.

That guy should stop talking about politics and just teach influencing, it would be far more informative.

Thank you very much

And you are probably right about that.

 

[Introverted1293]

Listen. If you are atheist, humanist, or a paganist I am not going to read your post at this point. I am not interested in discussing the Bible at length with those who reject the Bible. So please stop replying to me. I would appreciate it. Thank you.

I am sorry that you had that experience on here. I really appreciate your input. You gave some things to think about.

 

[Introverted1293]

Overall, interesting vieo this one is. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for watching.

 

[zephcom]

This is also thought provoking .

I have no idea how God views the death penalty to be perfectly honest. I don't know what is in the mind of God. I looked in the Bible and it does not seem to cover capital punishment. But people have their interpretations of what scripture says. I am not at all saying that you are wrong. You may be influenced by the Holy Spirit by that attitude. But I still can't help but believe in capital punishment, even though I know that I could be wrong.

I also understand what you are saying. The Bible talks about forgiving just like Jesus forgave us. But I don't know if that means we should not seek justice. And we all have different ideas of what justice is. Even Christians have different ideas of what justice is.

There are many Christians who are very strong and who do not want the death penalty. When Dolan shot up the Baptist Church, many Christians lost their loved ones. And still they did not want the death penalty for Dolan. They talked about forgiveness. So there are many strong Christians out there who still will forgive even when their loved ones were murdered. So, many of them will probably agree with you.

But I have to admit that my views are secular. I don't think it is possible to incorporate spiritual law into the secular law. Because if we do, we would have to arrest those who gossip. We would have to arrest those who feel hatred towards a brother. I just can't make it work. So I have separated my spiritual views and my secular views.

In my opinion, death (non-painful death) is an appropriate punishment for murder. It prevents them from killing again. I could be wrong about this, but these are the stories that I here from people. Murderers still murder in jail. You just have to listen to their stories. A lot of people will suggest that they should just separate them from the population. But they don't always have the beds for them. There are jail cells that are meant for isolating prisoners when they misbehave, but it is not meant for permanent isolation. Every time a prisoner asks to be isolated from people, they are told that they don't have room to isolate them.

But they do isolate child molesters and transsexuals. So, maybe they could find the room to isolate murderers, I don't know.

And as for sacrificial love, that only works if people of God was to go there and minister to murderers. Locking them in jail and throwing away the key and then forgetting about them doesn't seem like sacrificial love to me, which you may not be saying that they should do. You may be very well suggesting that murderers should be getting ministered. And I can respect that if that is what you are saying.

But sometimes it would seem to me that saying no to death penalty simply because it violates somebody's beliefs maybe putting other people's lives in jeopardy. There was a protest against the death penalty in Arkansas. And I still don't know the results of that, but if they got their way and they did not execute the prisoners, they might kill somebody else in jail. But I recognize that I could be wrong. I know that right and wrong should not be based on how I feel. But I don't know if the death penalty is right or wrong in the eyes of God.

As for following Christ, yes, you are right, it is hard to follow Christ. It is hard because when someone hurts us, we want revenge. We want them to suffer, even though Christ taught us to turn the other cheek. But it is also hard because Christians have a different views on what it means to follow Christ. Many Christians do believe in the death penalty, but many don't believe in it. And if one has a different beliefs then the other, Christians start telling each other that they are not true followers of Jesus Christ. And that kind of makes it hard as well.

Perhaps we should put some perspective into all this. Capital punishment is a function of government. Following Jesus' teachings is a function of individual behavior.

As I recall, the Romans in Jesus' time practiced capital punishment and I don't recall Jesus demanding they stop it. If the Romans allowed the people to vote on the issue, I suspect Jesus would have voted against it because that would reflect His own personal walk through life.

I look at the issue much the same. Our government is prohibited by the Constitution from embracing any religion. It is supposed to be secular through and through. Government's throughout history have used capital punishment to ensure truly evil people are stopped. But throughout history many governments simply did not have the ability to ensure these people can be separated from the public like America has. Even people like Charles Manson have been kept securely in prison.

I think it is reasonable that America be willing to step back from capital punishment since it is clear that it can keep these people contained for their natural lives. So when the opportunity happens in which I get to vote on the issue, I vote for life in prison because it is the more loving behavior.

In the meantime, I work on my life and let the government do what governments do because I bear no spiritual responsibility for the actions of the government I live under any more than Jesus did when living under Roman rule.

 

[zephcom]

That maybe true.

I don't believe revenge as well. But how do you reform a murderer without the potential of him killing another person?

But you could be right.

The American prison system is a horrible experience for anyone. Reform is simply not on the agenda at all for anyone. But from a practical point of view, if one is going to keep these people in prison for the rest of their lives, trying to reform them might just be a waste of time. Keeping them under control might be a more practical goal.

Remember, in America it takes approximately 20-30 years to execute someone because of the process which they have to go through. We already have the mechanisms in place to keep them under control during that time. It shouldn't be that much more of a problem to continue keeping them under control for a few more decades.

What has always seemed wrong to me is that it actually costs taxpayers more money to execute someone than it does to store them in prison until they die naturally. Just from a cost efficiency point of view, one could make the case that we should abolish capital punishment.

 

[ThievingMagpie]

That maybe true.

I don't believe revenge as well. But how do you reform a murderer without the potential of him killing another person?

But you could be right.

Zephcom's post gives a good overview of the considerations at play. To give the British perspective there is always a tension between reform and recreation. For example its well known that participating in art, music and sport impact on wellbeing and that learning new skills gives hope and focus. But naturally the public finds it unpalatable to give convicts, especially murderers, access to things they consider recreational.

Also the provision of these things requires public funds and on the shopping list of government support, prisoner's wellbeing isn't high on the agenda for voters. Then again, if you could demonstrate that they actually reduced rates of reoffense, there's a strong argument for investing now to save later.

If you're interested in alternative models, the Nordic countries have taken quite interesting approaches to prison and future skills development and I believe there are some public evaluations online.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

The video relies on the "justice" and the "sense of justice" but its never defined accurately. Ok, the guy has a good voice, but thats all.

 

[Introverted1293]

The American prison system is a horrible experience for anyone. Reform is simply not on the agenda at all for anyone. But from a practical point of view, if one is going to keep these people in prison for the rest of their lives, trying to reform them might just be a waste of time. Keeping them under control might be a more practical goal.

Remember, in America it takes approximately 20-30 years to execute someone because of the process which they have to go through. We already have the mechanisms in place to keep them under control during that time. It shouldn't be that much more of a problem to continue keeping them under control for a few more decades.

What has always seemed wrong to me is that it actually costs taxpayers more money to execute someone than it does to store them in prison until they die naturally. Just from a cost efficiency point of view, one could make the case that we should abolish capital punishment.

That is true.

Thank you very much for your input. You actually gave me things think about.

My goal is to be a true follower of Jesus Christ. I struggle with that sometimes. And I have to ask myself if believing in the death penalty, or the excuse I gave you is just me justifying revenge? I mean, Paul persecuted the Christian church. I am sure people lost their loved ones because of Paul. And yet, God still chose to save him.

I did not mean to criticize the church when I said that sometimes it is frustrating because people have different opinions on how to follow Christ. That was not right of me, especially on a Christian forum. But I do thank you again for your input; and for not being nasty about it. I have had people get really nasty to me on here.

 

[Introverted1293]

Zephcom's post gives a good overview of the considerations at play. To give the British perspective there is always a tension between reform and recreation. For example its well known that participating in art, music and sport impact on wellbeing and that learning new skills gives hope and focus. But naturally the public finds it unpalatable to give convicts, especially murderers, access to things they consider recreational.

Also the provision of these things requires public funds and on the shopping list of government support, prisoner's wellbeing isn't high on the agenda for voters. Then again, if you could demonstrate that they actually reduced rates of reoffense, there's a strong argument for investing now to save later.

If you're interested in alternative models, the Nordic countries have taken quite interesting approaches to prison and future skills development and I believe there are some public evaluations online.

Yeah, he did.

Thank you very much. That is very interesting.

Well, I guess they can be reform. I mean, what do I know?

Thank you very much for your input.

 

[Drifter Kybe Scythe Kane]

Do you disagree with his reasons? Or agree?

On my end...I don't agree, no one deserves execution.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

A better choice would be to look at the crime rates in the US and how they are declining and have been for decades.

But we still have crime (and rates).

 

[Desk trauma]

But we still have crime (and rates).

We still have the perfect being the enemy of the good as well.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

On my end...I don't agree, no one deserves execution.

First 56 seconds.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

We still have the perfect being the enemy of the good as well.

If only that were true. Our whole criminal justice system is archaic.

 

[Desk trauma]

If only that were true. Our whole criminal justice system is archaic.

Yet we have crime rates nearly half what they were in what is rapidly becoming the good old days and they continue to decline.

 

[durangodawood]

....I like the fact that DNA testing can rule out not-guilty people (for no one is truly innocent before God.)....

No it cant.

It relies completely on the integrity of the labs involved. And we know there have been significant lapses.

(Basically any system that relies on human competence and human integrity will have failures sooner or later.)

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yet we have crime rates nearly half what they were in what is rapidly becoming the good old days and they continue to decline.

Crime patterns change over time but are always a problem.