What do you think of this article?

[Rembrandtfan]

I wanted to post a link to this article, but I'm not allowed to because I need a minimum of 15 posts. If you google "Chuck Colson Me-centered families" you will find it.

I just don't understand why marriage and children have to be a "package deal". And why only childfree marriages are being blamed for falling birthrates? Why not target the whole idea of contraception, if falling birthrates are really becoming a problem? Or do they just want to be able to pick and choose who gets to use contraception and when? What a double-standard.

 

[invisiblebabe]

I think of children as a package deal that should come with marriage (seeing as premarital sex is sin). Yet, I don't believe that all married couples should or even can have children. Better no kids than screwed up or aborted ones, IMO.

 

[pepperfish]

I don't understand it either. I've been told that I should not even bother getting married, since my boyfriend and I aren't going to be having kids. It amazes me that there really are people out there who think that there's no point in marriage if children are not a part of it - I can respect that many people believe kids are one important part of marriage, even though I don't personally feel that way...but to believe that having children is the ONLY reason to get married is something I cannot comprehend.

 

[Dvorah27]

I wanted to post a link to this article, but I'm not allowed to because I need a minimum of 15 posts. If you google "Chuck Colson Me-centered families" you will find it.

I just don't understand why marriage and children have to be a "package deal". And why only childfree marriages are being blamed for falling birthrates? Why not target the whole idea of contraception, if falling birthrates are really becoming a problem? Or do they just want to be able to pick and choose who gets to use contraception and when? What a double-standard.

Or what about abortions being a reason for falling birth rates ? Basically what it boils down to is they are wrong, and we are right. They just don't like that they can't control everybody else. It's a control issue & an arrogance issue. I know what's right for me, I know they don't know a darned thing, and I know that they are using flawed logic as far as the falling birthrates thing goes. They're idiots.

 

[Rembrandtfan]

It just really bothers me that childfree couples are being singled out. Society as a whole is breeding less and less children as time goes on. My grandmother came from a family of 12 children. My mother came from a family of 5 children. I came from a family of 4 children. My sister has 3. My brother has 2. Most of the people I know nowadays have 2 or 3 on average. I know a few who have 5, but no more than that. So, isn't that contributing to the falling birthrate?

Like I said in a previous post, the ones who speak most against childfreedom seem to be the ones who stop at 2 or 3. Isn't that putting personal convenience ahead of children, just as they accuse us of doing? They are just as guilty of bringing an "end to western civilization" as we are.

 

[Rebekka]

I don't see having less children as society as a whole as an end to western civilization. I see it as a positive thing - less people use less resources, less land. I know it's different on the other side of the pond, you have loads of space, but large parts of Europe, including my entire country, are overpopulated. Christians take Europe as a bad example, Europe is "dying out"- no it isn't. We're overpopulated, and a decrease in population could be seen as a good thing although it has its drawbacks, but those are temporary. On the long term it is a good thing.

And those people (usually fundamentalist or conservative christians) who deny that there is overpopulation, and that the world population would fit into Texas (although you would be packed, and overheated - I don't do heat well) - well it's very convenient that the US don't open their borders. If the whole world fits into Texas, why would it be a problem then to let foreigners in?

I'm not saying that people shouldn't have lots of kids if they want to - please, go ahead, because I believe that no one has the right to interfere with family size. And I know some very happy large families (8-10 kids). But I don't see the drama that all those people who complain about the end of western civilization are talking about.

Also, civilizations don't last forever. Western civilization will come to an end one day.

 

[HeyHomie]

http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=6752

Let me be forthright and say, first of all, that I merely skimmed this article rather than reading it through. However, I got the gist.

I don't think that Mr. Colson (who, by the way, did time in The Joint for covering up for one Richard M. Nixon), is necessarily equating marriage with children. I think he's leading there, but he doesn't actually say it. Rather, I think he's just bemoaning the whole "selfishness" that governs so many lives, and that selfishness often manifests itself in destructive habits in marriage. Particularly, in the belief that a child is a commodity to be sought, rather than a gift to be received.

At least, that's what I took from the article. YMMV

By the way: all this talk about declining birthrates is horseradish. There is no shortage of babies being born. There is, however, a shortage of educated, English-speaking, Christian, Republican-voting, white babies being born, which, IMHO, is what Chuck Colson, Albert Mohler, and various and sundry others are stating, without actually saying it.

 

[Rembrandtfan]

I agree with both of you, RebekkaH and HeyHomie. The "falling birthrate" argument is all hype. If you follow the logic of that argument, then the finger points back at them, because then anyone who has ever used contraception can be blamed for falling birth rates, selfishness, etc.

 

[fuzzymel]

So what kind of marriage lasts? A marriage in which the husband and the wife understand that marriage is about self-giving, not about self-satisfaction. That parenthood is a calling to self-sacrifice for the good of the child, not an avenue for self-fulfillment.
We need to start teaching our kids and young adults that me-centered families cannot survive. And instead of delivering happiness and self-fulfillment, the me-first attitude will bring, in the end, nothing but emptiness and a declining birthrate that will soon enough bring about the end of western civilization.

He should have just left it at the bit in bold. I hate the whole 'parents are so unselfish' talk. Its not true. I have meant countless selfish parents. There are those that had children because 'thats what people do' and there are those that life their lives through the child. Neither is healthy for a child.

The falling birthrate talk is total rubbish. The figures in Guernsey show its rising although slowly. The problem we have is many children leave the island to go to university and dont go back to the small island life. We do however have more than enough teenage mothers keeping the population going quite nicely.

I think the falling birthrate thing is a way of scaring certain people into having children i.e. well educated. I can only speak for where I live but most large families are not well off and the very rich are having no children or just one. I just feel that the birthrate arguement is trying to tell middle and upper class citizens to have more children.

I hate going on about different classes of people but there is an obvious divide even if its not admitted.

 

[bluebug83]

I actually disagree with both the idea that marriage is primarily for "for the bearing and raising of children" along with the idea that it is for "personal self-fulfillment". I see it as a lifelong committed partnership, ordained by God, because "man is not meant to be alone". Though it also provides a means for those that want to have children to give them a healthy, stable environment (agree with invisiblebabe here), and a good marriage can be very satisfying, personally. I believe this because all of the parts of the Bible that talk about marriage describe the committed partnership, and leave out talk about kids and personal self-fulfillment. Nowehere in the Bible does it mention that kids are an expected, automatic, package-deal part of marriage.

I will, however, give credit to Colson for mentioning that he thinks the example of the woman spending a small fortune on conceiving, and risking damage to her marriage, is wrong because she sees children as a commodity to be sought, not a gift to be accepted. Reminds me of a big local news story here, a young married couple (both 24 years old) tried conceiving for a year with no luck, but wanted kids right now so badly that they went right to fertility drugs. They resulted in a sextuplet pregnancy, declined selective abortion to give the surviving children a better chance, and gave birth to all six kids prematurely, a little over a month ago. As of today, five of them have died, and the sixth is still in critical condition. Although my thoughts and prayers go out to them, I can't help but think that this may have been more of an impatient rush to have kids right now rather than something they were truly led to do. Especially since they declined selective abortion because "we seek God's plans for our family size" (I agree in the decision to decline abortion, but for the reason that I think only God should decide when life should be taken). What if he didn't want this couple to have kids right now; didn't they change God's plans by using fertility drugs?

 

[Meep]

I do find this amusing:

Because they also believe that marriage is all about “mutual happiness and fulfillment” and “personal satisfaction” instead of the “bearing and raising of children.”

And then goes on to say right after that in the next paragraph:

Do you see what’s missing here? Nothing about putting someone else first.

Because life couldn't simply be about 2 people enjoying each other & helping them grow spiritually. It's all about the kids. "Get to breeding as soon as you're married! No time to focus on each other, must BREED NOW for the sake of society's ridiculous & baseless demands."

Or what about abortions being a reason for falling birth rates ? Basically what it boils down to is they are wrong, and we are right. They just don't like that they can't control everybody else. It's a control issue & an arrogance issue. I know what's right for me, I know they don't know a darned thing, and I know that they are using flawed logic as far as the falling birthrates thing goes. They're idiots.

Exactly my thoughts.
This is just another way of attacking & coercing the naive & weak into a rash decision which will affect them for the rest of their lives. Many people are still on the fence on whether or not they want to have kids. Arguments like this makes the speaker come off as wacko & will have the opposite reaction to what they're trying to achieve. I don't get this style of evangelism. I'm ashamed to be tied with people like this because of my belief in God whenever I'm around non-believers as it's hard to convince them that we aren't all nuts when stuff like this is so prevalent. Then I get to questioning whether or not anything I say just lumps me in the same group or does any good at all.

I'm childless for the most part & leaning heavily towards childfree & I've been married for 9 years. We've had our rough patches just like any other married couples w/ kids. Arguments like this are sure to alienate those of us who choose not to have kids from the church if this mentality pervades the community. We've had to church-shop a bit because of this junk.

I just don't get what people's motives are against the childfree. The human population isn't going to die off. Their pro-children agendas would do more good if they worked towards helping out families in need instead of complaining about other people's choices. Jesus didn't have kids either. Get off our backsides & mind your own!


But the more I'm seeing of retarded "Christian" causes w/ the gays/Walmart boycotts & every "urban legend known to man that was debunked 20 years ago" email junk & all these nitpicky rants made by supposedly reputable Christian evangelizing do-gooders makes me fear for the day when Christians are truly persecuted as a whole in this country. Until then, most of the time I'm left just shaking my head sadly.

The childfree angle is just another one of those baseless rants to me. I'm guessing it's about these guys worrying that the other races are going to outbreed the WASPs. That's all I can think of; anyone else have any insight on their motives? =/

 

[Rembrandtfan]

That's all I can think of; anyone else have any insight on their motives? =/

I think many of them are misguided. They really believe they are called by God to say these things. I think some do have an agenda, though. It's like they're on this "save the culture" crusade. They use alarmist propaganda to scare or guilt people into doing what they want. Why they believe they need to save us from not wanting children is beyond me. Maybe they want to keep women out of the workforce. First, they guilt you into pregnancy, then they say you're a bad mother if you don't stay home with the child.