What do you think about this?

Athanasias · Jul 3, 2012

I was wandering what my messianic brothers think of this.

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janwoG · Jul 3, 2012

Do they have a special Catholic ritual similar as to those in a Messianic Synagogue? Do they worship on Shabatt?

Mordecai Anielewicz · Jul 3, 2012

I'm not sure what to think of this.
I'm also not sure why any Jewish person would be drawn to Catholicism in the first place.
I know I'm repelled by almost everything I know about it.

Qnts2 · Jul 3, 2012

Mordecai Anielewicz said:
I'm not sure what to think of this.
I'm also not sure why any Jewish person would be drawn to Catholicism in the first place.
I know I'm repelled by almost everything I know about it.

I would agree. I don't know why a Jewish person would voluntarily convert to Catholicism. (Some Jewish people have converted when the decision is convert or be killed). The Catholic practices go against too many basic Jewish beliefs and practices.

ChavaK · Jul 3, 2012

Mordecai Anielewicz said:
I'm not sure what to think of this.
I'm also not sure why any Jewish person would be drawn to Catholicism in the first place.
I know I'm repelled by almost everything I know about it.

I remember seeing Phil Silvers many, many years ago on a talk show.
He mentioned that he went to a Catholic church and wanted to convert.
He was attracted to the rituals and traditions. I remember thinking, what
do you think Judaism has? What do you need the Catholic church for that?
Interestingly enough, the priest would not convert him. He told Silvers that
he was born a Jew and he should stay a Jew.

Gxg (G²) · Jul 3, 2012

Athanasias said:
I was wandering what my messianic brothers think of this.

AHC Home

Jewish people have always existed in a myriad of circles, all feeling that their Jewish culture and heritage are expressed better in some circles others would not agree with. There are many in Jewish culture who feel what occurs within the Protestant world (including Messianic Judaism) is more in line with what they see scripturally than what they see in Catholicism...and there are others who feel opposite of that in the belief that camps outside of the Protestant AND Catholic camps combined do not reflect Jewish beliefs as accurrately as other camps, while others feel Catholic culture (be it Latin/Roman Catholic or Eastern Catholics) have a better similarity to the Jewish cultural heritage.

IMHO, it isn't surprising that others exist such as Hebrew Catholics, as there are many out there who are wonderful people who in no way feel their being connected with Catholicism means that they somehow are against their Jewish heritage........unless, of course, what's being considered is Catholicism are things akin to stereotypes that are often promoted by many Protestant groups and camps within MJism (i.e. Messianic Judaism).

Don't know if you were aware of it...but if interested, there was a very good dialouge on some of the things you noted as seen in the thread entitled Jewishness of Ancient Church Tradition. Talked on how alot of things within other parts of the Church, including Catholicism, were very much in line with what occurred in the early Jewish culture. And for other discussions that occurred (here, here, #1 , #1, #255 , #16 , #18, #21 , #133, #140 , #164, and#218 / #221 concerning Jews in Catholic circles). There was one individual (previously known as Freak4JC, mentioned here in #8 / #1), who was here not too long ago. Although more fully immeshed in MJism years ago, he became apart of the Catholic church...specifically, Melkite Catholicism. Everyone is truly on a journey...

Some things noted by other Messianic Jews, from previous discussions:

ContraMundum said:
Luther removed the "Apocryphal" books from his Bible. They were canonised at the Council of Rome and later at the Council of Carthage in the fourth Century at the same time as the NT. Luther disputed their inclusion and removed them from his Bible (in the 16thC).

The RCC responded to Luther's removal of the "Apocrypha" by confirming their canon (hence the term deutero-canonical books).

ContraMundum said:

There's even a book written by a Catholic Jew called "Completed Jew". Pretty good book from a layman too.

ContraMundum said:

Catholic Church is the softest on Judaism of any Christian denomination (see: Nostra Aetate and The correct way to present the Jews and Judaism
in preaching and catechesis in the Roman Catholic Church)

ContraMundum said:

There is an element of MJism that is your garden variety anti-Catholic.

LOCO said:

Thank you for at least being honest about it. I'd like a frank dialogue with someone who is able to at least admit that there is an element of anti-Catholicism within MJism.

Just as there has been a history of anti-judaism within the Catholic Church and even today to some extent but we are working on that relationship. I don't defend Catholicism with blinkers on, I am aware of her failings over the past 2000 years and I accept her as she is warts and all.

ContraMundum said:

To my knowledge the RCC is way ahead of the other churches in terms of confession to anti-semitism and seeking to right the wrongs done in the past. I speak of this in regards the institutional level- there have always been Catholics and other Christians of all stripes who have individually done great things for Jewish people, but as an institution, the RCC is way ahead by making formal moves and statements to correct anti-semitism in the Church. Nostra Aetate was a huge step forward for Christianity.

However, while churches gather around making amends with our friends in other faiths, many of us have not buried the hatchet with other Christians. To some people, the RCC is still a scapegoat and whipping boy for all kinds of conceivable and reprehensible deeds, and very rarely is there much substance or reason for this blame found in the facts of the matter. The MJism that is anti-Catholic is basically left-overs from radicalized quasi-Protestantism that evens demonizes normative Protestant churches as well. Hence, it is not uncommon to find that an anti-Catholic MJ is also an anti-"The Churches" MJ. The good news is that mainstream MJism on the whole does not concern itself with such fanatical and irrational thinking, and is in fact a progressive and positive force in the Christian Faith.

ContraMundum said:

If you believe that the Creeds (in particular the Nicene) are the correct exposition and outline of the important core of the scriptures, than you are a Christian, whether you label yourself as Messianic or Catholic, or whatever. Messianic is considered a sub-set of Christianity for the purposes of this forum. If you have a Messianic icon on your profile, then you can post in the Christian sections of the forum that are open to you within the guidelines of the sub-forum you are posting in.

As for the dispensationalist problem mentioned, I have found that many Messianics are very influenced by dispensationalism, so that in itself is not really a core difference between the other Christians and the Messianics here. Like replacement theology, its really a minority thing that Christians on all sides of the spectrum will struggle with within the community at large.

ContraMundum said:

I have to admit that the AHC has done some very good work lately. They have seriously stepped up to the plate for more than batting practice.

It would appeal to you, Heber. Some serious thought and questioning has gone into the role of the Jews and Israel in the Church in our day, and in particular mission and identity. There is currently becoming available some good thought-provoking lectures on these matters.

While they are intended to be easily digested by all, I think some of you that may be pondering the role of the Jews and Israel in the Church and the future in a matter more deeply that is currently presented on this forum, might find the intellectual stimulus that you have been seeking.

While I personally don't endorse everything anybody says (I'm not Roman Catholic) there are some insights worth checking out that add to the academic colour of this important topic.

Check out their website, and download some stuff.

Heber said:

Though I am not a Catholic (and about as far removed, theologically, as it is possible to be, whilst remaining in the Church) I am aware of Catholic theology to a fair degree, so I know this, but, even so, their origins of the Eucharist are not in any sense to do with the secular as being propounded on this thread. - they are directly from Scripture. CM, being closer to the 'established' Church than I am thinks the idea laughable as well. The Catholic Church, as the original form of Church, took the words of Scripture to form the Eucharist. This would, I suspect (as I cannot remember the detail just now) include a quite literal use of John 6 as well as the warrant in 1 Corinthians 11 - this latter being common to all Churches.

In any case, it is always ill advised to assume the whole Church behaves or even supports all that each denomination holds to.

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Athanasias · Jul 3, 2012

Qnts2 said:
I would agree. I don't know why a Jewish person would voluntarily convert to Catholicism. (Some Jewish people have converted when the decision is convert or be killed). The Catholic practices go against too many basic Jewish beliefs and practices.

One of my theology professors in Grad school(Dr Lawrence Feingold) was a convert from judiasm and he is part of the Hebrew Catholic assoc and does lectures publicly for them. He and others in thier view see Catholicsm as perfectly fulfilling biblical and traditional Judaism. He wrote 3 volumes on how Isreal is fullfilled in the Catholic Church and how this was prohesied all the way back to Genesis with Abraham. His books are the following.

http://www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcst...//www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcstore.html?page=1

Another genrlemen scholar who wrote a book I read seemed to really tie it all together biblically showing all the major Catholic beleifs such as the Papacy, the Mass, Devotion to Mary, Purgatory, and venerating saints connecting to Judaism as its fullfillment. Take a look at this book its also good stuff.

http://www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcst...brewcatholic.org/ahcstore.html?page=4&all=yes

And another good one from a former Jew is this one:
http://www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcst...brewcatholic.org/ahcstore.html?page=9&all=yes

And this one also from a Jewish convert to the faith:

http://www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcst...tml?page=1&keyword=salvation+is+from+the+jews

This is a book showing the Sacrifice of Holy Mass and the teaching of Christ real presesne in the Eucharist connecting to the Jewish roots:
http://www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcst...brewcatholic.org/ahcstore.html?page=1&new=yes

I did not know if anyone from the Messianics read this stuff or ever considered it as I know scholars many of them former Jews see a fullfillment in the Catholic Church.

it would be interesting to see a dialog on this between a messianic and a Hebrew Catholic.

God bless you all my brothers.
In Jesus Christ the King through Mary the Queen Mother,
Athanasias

yedida · Jul 3, 2012

Athanasias said:
One of my theology professors in Grad school(Dr Lawrence Feingold) was a convert from judiasm and he is part of the Hebrew Catholic assoc and does lectures publicly for them. He and others in thier view see Catholicsm as perfectly fulfilling biblical and traditional Judaism. He wrote 3 volumes on how Isreal is fullfilled in the Catholic Church and how this was prohesied all the way back to Genesis with Abraham. His books are the following.

http://www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcst...//www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcstore.html?page=1

Another genrlemen scholar who wrote a book I read seemed to really tie it all together biblically showing all the major Catholic beleifs such as the Papacy, the Mass, Devotion to Mary, Purgatory, and venerating saints connecting to Judaism as its fullfillment. Take a look at this book its also good stuff.

http://www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcst...brewcatholic.org/ahcstore.html?page=4&all=yes

And another good one from a former Jew is this one:
http://www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcst...brewcatholic.org/ahcstore.html?page=9&all=yes

And this one also from a Jewish convert to the faith:

http://www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcst...tml?page=1&keyword=salvation+is+from+the+jews

This is a book showing the Sacrifice of Holy Mass and the teaching of Christ real presesne in the Eucharist connecting to the Jewish roots:
http://www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcst...brewcatholic.org/ahcstore.html?page=1&new=yes

I did not know if anyone from the Messianics read this stuff or ever considered it as I know scholars many of them former Jews see a fullfillment in the Catholic Church.

it would be interesting to see a dialog on this between a messianic and a Hebrew Catholic.

God bless you all my brothers.
In Jesus Christ the King through Mary the Queen Mother,
Athanasias

I thank you for asking your sincere question here, but I'm afraid you'll find very few Messianics who will give you the confirmation you seem to be seeking. We just don't see anything that Rome has done as a good thing at all. In fact, Rome has been nothing but a matter of shame and embarrassment to those who love Yeshua.
Have a safe holiday. Shalom.

Athanasias · Jul 3, 2012

yedida said:
I thank you for asking your sincere question here, but I'm afraid you'll find very few Messianics who will give you the confirmation you seem to be seeking. We just don't see anything that Rome has done as a good thing at all. In fact, Rome has been nothing but a matter of shame and embarrassment to those who love Yeshua.
Have a safe holiday. Shalom.

I thank you for your response and honesty. God bless you always! I am just sincere in asking if any messianic Christians have ever read or studied some of these sources or to at least consider why many Jewish people also convert to the Catholic faith as they see it as the biblical and historical fullfillment to Judaism too and go to lengths to explain it in there books.

I know some Rabbi's who have also seen some good things that the Catholic Church has done so I am wandering why these sources which go deep in scripture, Jewish writings, and history have not gone and been at least read with a open mind by messianics.

I would guess that it has to do with age old prejudice on both sides(Catholic and protestant). I would invite all my friends to study messianic writings and then to study the books and writings by Hebrew Catholics and compare and at least see for themselves who has fulfilled Judaism most fully.

Take care and May the Lord bless you and keep you.

In Jesus the King through Mary the Queen Mother

Gxg (G²) · Jul 3, 2012

Athanasias said:
One of my theology professors in Grad school(Dr Lawrence Feingold) was a convert from judiasm and he is part of the Hebrew Catholic assoc and does lectures publicly for them. He and others in thier view see Catholicsm as perfectly fulfilling biblical and traditional Judaism. He wrote 3 volumes on how Isreal is fullfilled in the Catholic Church and how this was prohesied all the way back to Genesis with Abraham. His books are the following.

http://www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcst...//www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcstore.html?page=1

Another genrlemen scholar who wrote a book I read seemed to really tie it all together biblically showing all the major Catholic beleifs such as the Papacy, the Mass, Devotion to Mary, Purgatory, and venerating saints connecting to Judaism as its fullfillment. Take a look at this book its also good stuff.

http://www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcst...brewcatholic.org/ahcstore.html?page=4&all=yes

And another good one from a former Jew is this one:
http://www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcst...brewcatholic.org/ahcstore.html?page=9&all=yes

And this one also from a Jewish convert to the faith:

http://www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcst...tml?page=1&keyword=salvation+is+from+the+jews

This is a book showing the Sacrifice of Holy Mass and the teaching of Christ real presesne in the Eucharist connecting to the Jewish roots:
http://www.hebrewcatholic.org/ahcst...brewcatholic.org/ahcstore.html?page=1&new=yes

I did not know if anyone from the Messianics read this stuff or ever considered it as I know scholars many of them former Jews see a fullfillment in the Catholic Church.

it would be interesting to see a dialog on this between a messianic and a Hebrew Catholic.

Good links..and many thanks for sharing them

Some of the dialouges between many within Messianic Judaism and others who are Jewish and involved in Catholicism have been interesting, especially when seeing the many ways that people often don't wish to acknowledge where the Catholic faith directly impacts all others outside of it.

One of the most basic aspects being that no one, be it in the Protestant Camp or camps within it, can say they're against anything Catholic while still choosing to use scripture...as the 66 books/ scriptures themselves that're used in the Protestant cannon were complied through the efforts of Catholics....and it's one of the main things that always comes off as hypocritical since it makes no sense to use any resource/work from a group one is against and make it out as if it's seperate from that group. Moreover, as you noted, most of the powerful hospitals created to aid the Body and others who are not saved were created by Catholics. Including St.Joseph's Children's hospital amongst many others.

And for the numerous amounts of Catholics faithfully standing against the evil of abortion, it's a blessing seeing their hearts to stand out for life just as many other believers have done throughout the Body of Christ. A couple of months ago, one of the believers on my side of town got in contact with an organization against abortion and one of the leaders sent information to her with this link. Thought you might like it, as it addresses the many ways faith-based organizations are being forced to support services that go against their faith in this current administration.....and it shows what others throughout Catholicism/Christendom have long felt on the issue when it comes to righteousness:

Religious Liberty Homily.mp4

Wishing you had come at times when there were a lot more Messianics present, as there've been many who've been quite vocal in their support of things within the Catholic world for some time....if going back through the search engine and doing your own research. Others may've done so due to their growing up in the Catholic world, whereas others disconnected with it and yet still had relationships/inter-faith dialouges with those who are Catholic in regards to building relationships in the Body. The forum known as Bridge Builders may be more so in line with the type of fellowship you're looking for, as it concerns the things you've noted.....for not everyone has the mindset of wanting any kind of connection with Israel/Church or Jews being seen in other parts of the Body.

Also, if interested in seeing what other Messianic Jews have often said, there are some excellent organizations that do a lot of work documenting the world of Messianic Judaism. For more:

The world of Messianic Judaism will always be diverse. Whereas there are plenty who are against anything from Rome/Catholic backgrounds, there are just as many who are thankful for it. Personally, I agree with other MJish (i.e Messianic Jewish) groups that have long noted how one doesn't have to agree 100% with Catholicism in order to give honor where it is due for where they've contributed to the Body of Christ and others who serve the Lord Christ/Yeshua. The Lord is truly faithful Shalom

Athanasias · Jul 3, 2012

Easy G (G²);60890108 said:
Good links..and many thanks for sharing them

Some of the dialouges between many within Messianic Judaism and others who are Jewish and involved in Catholicism have been interesting, especially when seeing the many ways that people often don't wish to acknowledge where the Catholic faith directly impacts all others outside of it.

One of the most basic aspects being that no one, be it in the Protestant Camp or camps within it, can say they're against anything Catholic while still choosing to use scripture...as the 66 books/ scriptures themselves that're used in the Protestant cannon were complied through the efforts of Catholics....and it's one of the main things that always comes off as hypocritical since it makes no sense to use any resource/work from a group one is against and make it out as if it's seperate from that group. Moreover, as you noted, most of the powerful hospitals created to aid the Body and others who are not saved were created by Catholics. Including St.Joseph's Children's hospital amongst many others.

And for the numerous amounts of Catholics faithfully standing against the evil of abortion, it's a blessing seeing their hearts to stand out for life just as many other believers have done throughout the Body of Christ. A couple of months ago, one of the believers on my side of town got in contact with an organization against abortion and one of the leaders sent information to her with this link. Thought you might like it, as it addresses the many ways faith-based organizations are being forced to support services that go against their faith in this current administration.....and it shows what others throughout Catholicism/Christendom have long felt on the issue when it comes to righteousness:

Religious Liberty Homily.mp4

Wishing you had come at times when there were a lot more Messianics present, as there've been many who've been quite vocal in their support of things within the Catholic world for some time....if going back through the search engine and doing your own research. Others may've done so due to their growing up in the Catholic world, whereas others disconnected with it and yet still had relationships/inter-faith dialouges with those who are Catholic in regards to building relationships in the Body. The forum known as Bridge Builders may be more so in line with the type of fellowship you're looking for, as it concerns the things you've noted.....for not everyone has the mindset of wanting any kind of connection with Israel/Church or Jews being seen in other parts of the Body.

Also, if interested in seeing what other Messianic Jews have often said, there are some excellent organizations that do a lot of work documenting the world of Messianic Judaism. For more:

Messianic Judaism - Catholics for Israel

Heresy: Jewish and Pagan | The Groom's Family

What The Other Jews Think | The Groom's Family

More on Catholic Messianic Judaism |Rosh Pina Project

Why Can't The Church Stay Jewish? | The Groom's Family

A Brief History of Jewish Conversion | The Groom's Family

Catholic | Search Results | | Page 3 - The Rosh Pina Project

The Groom's Family | A blog for all who love Jesus and the Jews

The world of Messianic Judaism will always be diverse. Whereas there are plenty who are against anything from Rome/Catholic backgrounds, there are just as many who are thankful for it. Personally, I agree with other MJish (i.e Messianic Jewish) groups that have long noted how one doesn't have to agree 100% with Catholicism in order to give honor where it is due for where they've contributed to the Body of Christ and others who serve the Lord Christ/Yeshua. The Lord is truly faithful Shalom

Easy G Thank you so much for your kind words and your thoughtful approach. Also thank you for these great links. I will look at them. God bless you! I am happy to meet a Messianic Christian who is ecumenical toward the Hebrew Catholics. I know some of the Hebrew Catholics I met talk to Messianics and consider them brothers in Christ albeit separated from formal union. I myself just never knew any messianics personally and just a few of them I met seemed very anti-Catholic.

I am very grateful for your knowledge and prayerful patience with me. Blessed be God forever!

May the Lord Jesus bless and keep you.

In Jesus the New Covenant through Mary the New Ark,
Athanasias

visionary · Jul 4, 2012

Mordecai Anielewicz said:
I'm not sure what to think of this.
I'm also not sure why any Jewish person would be drawn to Catholicism in the first place.
I know I'm repelled by almost everything I know about it.

me too!!!Lord open up their eyes that they might see.

aniello · Jul 4, 2012

Mordecai Anielewicz said:
I'm not sure what to think of this.
I'm also not sure why any Jewish person would be drawn to Catholicism in the first place.
I know I'm repelled by almost everything I know about it.

Qnts2 said:
I would agree. I don't know why a Jewish person would voluntarily convert to Catholicism. (Some Jewish people have converted when the decision is convert or be killed). The Catholic practices go against too many basic Jewish beliefs and practices.

yedida said:
I thank you for asking your sincere question here, but I'm afraid you'll find very few Messianics who will give you the confirmation you seem to be seeking. We just don't see anything that Rome has done as a good thing at all. In fact, Rome has been nothing but a matter of shame and embarrassment to those who love Yeshua.
Have a safe holiday. Shalom.

visionary said:
me too!!!Lord open up their eyes that they might see.

Today, the third of July, my 77th b'day, and being in an amazingly good mood, surprized G-d should permit me to live so long, I agree with the above quoted.

yedida · Jul 4, 2012

aniello said:
Today, the third of July, my 77th b'day, and being in an amazingly good mood, surprized G-d should permit me to live so long, I agree with the above quoted.

Happy birthday. I hear rumors that in about 19 hours there's gonna be some fireworks painting the skies, a little belated birthday greetings??

visionary · Jul 4, 2012

aniello said:
Today, the third of July, my 77th b'day, and being in an amazingly good mood, surprized G-d should permit me to live so long, I agree with the above quoted.

Happy birthday... yours is the 3rd and mine is the 4th.

aniello · Jul 4, 2012

yedida said:
Happy birthday. I hear rumors that in about 19 hours there's gonna be some fireworks painting the skies, a little belated birthday greetings??

HaHa. Yeah, sure. NOT!

Nope. For all her faults, mistakes, errors and excesses, it is still the birthday of our beloved nation the U.S. of A. I am saying that even as a half native American, albeit Half Jew(thanks Mom, her memory a blessing to me and my 3 siblings).

I wish our history had been truly "Christian", there'd be a lot more "Indians" and black folks alive today probably. Also, William Tecumseh Sherman, under Grant and Lincoln, so disliked Jews that he persuaded U.S. Grant to rid his Corp. of all Jews, comparing them to blacks(but he used the N-word), greasers(meaning Hispanics) and the sub-human Indians(whom he later expressed that extermination was his solution for them[us]).

Nevertheless, this nation has endeavoured to do much good. We have sacrificed much blood and treasure to prevent tyranny when we could. Reflecting, I was about 6-1/2 when we entered WW II, we were barely coming out of The Depression. We weren't so [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] sure we were going to prevail in the war. I remember what we all sang, Jew or gentile or "Indian", with hopeful conviction, and we meant it. It was the song "G-d Bless America". Well, He did.

But now we have become smug fools. I pray fervently that we repent and submit to G-d's instructions, which are not burdensome, but assure the blessing of responsible freedom, within His protective boundaries, I refer to Torah.

May G-d bless America to sober repentance. b'shem Yeshua, amen.

yedida · Jul 4, 2012

visionary said:
Happy birthday... yours is the 3rd and mine is the 4th.

Well, happy birthday to you too, babydoll!!

And to all, be safe today under Hashem's protective wings!

aniello · Jul 4, 2012

visionary said:
Happy birthday... yours is the 3rd and mine is the 4th.

I pray and wish for you a very joyful Birthday.

Let us all remember to pray for the Peace of Jerusalem and that we Americans serve G-d to that end, that the Peace of Jerusalem shall come. He will bring it about, in His own good time, perhaps we should be on the winning side IMO.

G'night all and may G-d bless and protect and provide for you all. b' shem Yeshua, amen.

Avodat · Jul 4, 2012

Let us all remember to pray for the Peace of Jerusalem and that we ALL serve G-d to that end, that the Peace of Jerusalem shall come. He will bring it about, in His own good time, perhaps we should be on the winning side IMO.

Not being American I would have to adapt your sentiments as above so that I can agree with them (hope you don't mind!) - but I do hope you really enjoy your day of celebrations. Mazel tov!

aniello · Jul 4, 2012

Avodat said:
Not being American I would have to adapt your sentiments as above so that I can agree with them (hope you don't mind!) - but I do hope you really enjoy your day of celebrations. Mazel tov!

I heartily approve of your most appropriate modification. Inclusion of us all, hopefully.

Ah, just woke up, fell asleep at keyboard, gettin' old I guess. I've been up here at Pine Ridge(Rez. I partly grew up on) for the annual Sun Dance, Vision Quest, etc. stuff tribe does. They've worn me oout.

G'night.

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